Will Final Fantasy XV's Cid be a Lady?

[Loony BoB]

90%? I don't know about that.

I've already posted a source for that claim, so I have to say I'm more than a little insulted that you'd question me on it; it makes me feel like you really just don't care about any of the points I'm trying to make.

I haven't read every post in the thread. I'll get to this in a bit. But just for clarification: I said "I don't know about that" not as a dismissal but as a genuine response in the literal words: I don't know about that. At the time of the post I didn't, as I had missed a few posts before replying to the thread. It was long, okay! xD

I can give you a litany of examples for how the sexual objectification of women 1) far outpaces the sexual objectification of men, and 2) affects gender equality in negative ways, with consequences for both genders. Apparently you're just going to ignore them because you don't "feel" that this is a problem. Fictional characters both reflect and reinforce society's values.

How much of that is down to Final Fantasy, though? Is FF really the source of these issues, or is it more likely the representation of females in far worse video game series for this kind of thing? We all know the old joke - huge armouf for men, tiny bikinis for women, and off they go into a swordfight. Final Fantasy is fairer than that and I genuinely believe this. I think it's fair to bark at some games where one gender is sexualised way, way beyond that of another although that is still just a case of targeted demographics and how people react to it all.

We could maybe consider making the range of female body types comparable to the range of male body types. Men can be fit, fat, old, short, hulks... Women are almost always fit, young, and very often excessively busty. You are fully aware that no one's saying to get rid of attractive people; people are saying every single girl being young and busty is getting really smurfing old.

I actually was thinking about this - in Final Fantasy, when was the last time you saw a fat dude? Danielle and I were discussing it just now - she said Galka, but I disagree, they're muscly like mad (and only men). The only time I can think of fat characters in Final Fantasy is the midget races in the MMOs, and even then it's both genders that get the treatment, not just one. And they're only a bit chubby, really. Final Fantasy just doesn't do unfit characters in my experience. As for old, you get old women in FF just like you get old men. It might be slightly more favouring men if only because, in earlier years, Final Fantasy had a greater number of male characters in general. In recent years that table has most definitely turned (up until FFXV, naturally). Old women are known in the FF series, though.

I've used the character design for Overwatch
as an example before. Look at the range of body types and ages for male characters. They're short, tall, muscular, fat, young, and old. The women are young, slim, and busty. Every single one. And please come back at me with the "But men made this game for men and that's just the status quo for how men want women to be so it's okay!" Because smurf you.

And fair enough! I'll hold my hands up and say that I don't care about that game, but rather care about how people and how they react to such a game. If they react in a bad way then I think people should deal with that problem. However, I've never been against getting a mixture of women into games (and comics, and film, and whatever else). I do think that game is biased towards guys in a notable way. I don't have a problem with any game putting in a female dwarf or a giant female, or a fat female, or a fat old girl. Whatever works for that game.

You may dismiss an avalanche of examples because "everyone likes to look at pretty people," but as I said, the consequences of valuing women based on their looks and sexualizing every smurfing female character are far reaching. I've posted a study that illustrates one major example, and a video that lists many more examples. I can continue to list examples until I'm blue in the face. You don't get to dismiss this as "but what's wrong with liking to look at attractive people"? I like to look at attractive people too; it's why I don't watch British TV shows. But the gap between how men and women are treated is wide; you would have to ignore thousands of studies in order to believe otherwise. Please tell me you want more studies--I will drown you in studies, mothersmurfer.

I'm focusing on Final Fantasy in my debate because I do believe that men are made to look as attractive as they could possibly be, and the same goes for the females. I think it's fair and equal.

And don't BS me about the differences in swim wear being a simple matter of personal choice; that's being purposefully dense. Women are expected to cover their breasts because "sexual" (and illegal to show in many places). In other cultures, you'll get laughed at for thinking breasts are sexual because they're "for babies." In yet other cultures you'll get rocks thrown at you for having your shoulders covered because "sexual." This is not an issue men in any culture that I'm aware of deal with on any level.

It was said "on English beaches" so I was referring to them, but I completely agree with you regarding the point of boobs being different in different places. And both Danielle and I agree that boobs are just boobs and it shouldn't be a big deal, but culture has decided that they are, and just because that's happened doesn't mean I need to think it's right that it was decided that way. Neither of us do. But we have to deal with the culture we're given. Thankfully in a world of fantasy, they can put in whatever the hell damned culture they want to (provided they can still make money from it).

Anyway, I had to dig around your posts a fair bit to find the 96% thing, but again, it begs the question I posed to ToriJ: Perhaps females are less likely to let people know that they sexualise males. Perhaps females are less likely to sexualise males in general due to just generally not finding males as physically 'sexy', even at their prime, as a female can be according to men. There's a lot to mull over there, but I think you are right when you say it's a reflection on our society - but in more ways than you might initially intend to mean.

I asked Danielle what she considers to be sexy on a guy and we agreed that the most sexualised a guy can be is open shirt, jeans, buff. It's not much more than that. And that happens with the guys. It's just that... it's not as globally "OMG'ed" over, be that because of girls (and homosexual men etc. but you know what I mean) not playing the games, not being as vocal about it as your average straight guy is or perhaps just simply it doesn't get as 'hot under the collar' as a straight guy looking at a girl due to genetic differences or some other kind of cultural/scientific reason. I dunno. But a guy at his very sexiest will probably still never be criticised. My perspective? It's probably because guys just don't give a crap if a guy looks like Gladiolus. Is he being sexualised? Yes. Yes, he is. If he was only an NPC like Cidney, would anyone give a rat's arse? No, no they wouldn't. Just because most games sexualise women more than men doesn't mean that Final Fantasy isn't one of the fairest examples out there - they sexualise girls and guys. Anyone who argues otherwise makes me shake my head, because I honestly don't know how more sexualised a guy is supposed to be. Danielle said she preferred showing chest/abs, jeans, manly look. Tick, tick, tick. I asked if Gladiolus could have been more sexualised. Her answer? Hmm... no. She's happy. I'm happy. I don't believe that Final Fantasy sexualises one gender and not the other. No fat blokes, no ugly blokes. Some blokes with any sexualising possible done to them.

Also, I imagine based on the bits I watched of that video that it covers so much more than video games, let alone Final Fantasy, and I completely agree that it is wrong that 96% of sexualising is done using females, especially if using real females and with some of the taglines being read out in that video, which were majorly offensive (the "She might not be your first, but do you care?" thing - what the hell). What I'm getting at is that I don't believe Final Fantasy is part of that problem and I don't think they could sexualise men much more if they wanted to unless every male had their tops open, but then, often a female will be well covered so then it goes back to whether it's being fair or not to both genders.

But yeah, I just don't think FF is contributing to the 96% like you might (or might not!) feel it is. I think with FF, it's closer to something like perhaps 50-60% as I think 95% of the characters in FF games are designed to be physically attractive. It also may have something to do with those things I mentioned to ToriJ, again, though. I genuinely wouldn't mind someday sitting back and talking with you about it in person because I think it would be really interesting, but on forums I fear a lot of our tone gets lost in the internet and it comes out super serious so yeah, don't think I'm totally oblivious to oversexualisation of females, just that in fiction I don't personally see it as a problem provided the people - and I can only refer to myself when it's what I deem as okay for me - are capable of seperating fiction from the real world. I mean, I don't go watching Game of Thrones and deciding how to treat women based on that, either. It's important to be able to seperate the real world from games in this way. Or rather, real people and characters. I see Danielle doll her character up in skimpy clothes and I think the character looks sexy, she likes it. Another person's character - a male, even, playing as a female - dresses their character up and I think that character is sexy. Does that mean I instantly think the dude irl is sexy and treat him like a sex object? Hell no. xD

EDIT: Oh man I did not intend on that long a post, dammit Shlup, what you doing to me.

[Shlup]

90%? I don't know about that.

I've already posted a source for that claim, so I have to say I'm more than a little insulted that you'd question me on it; it makes me feel like you really just don't care about any of the points I'm trying to make.

I haven't read every post in the thread. I'll get to this in a bit. But just for clarification: I said "I don't know about that" not as a dismissal but as a genuine response in the literal words: I don't know about that. At the time of the post I didn't, as I had missed a few posts before replying to the thread. It was long, okay! xD

No forgiveness. Grudge against you forever.

How much of that is down to Final Fantasy, though? Is FF really the source of these issues, or is it more likely the representation of females in far worse video game series for this kind of thing? We all know the old joke - huge armouf for men, tiny bikinis for women, and off they go into a swordfight. Final Fantasy is fairer than that and I genuinely believe this. I think it's fair to bark at some games where one gender is sexualised way, way beyond that of another although that is still just a case of targeted demographics and how people react to it all.

What does Final Fantasy have to do with anything? I'm not talking about the series; I'm talking about Cidney. Neither of which exist in a vacuum regardless.

I actually was thinking about this - in Final Fantasy, when was the last time you saw a fat dude? Danielle and I were discussing it just now - she said Galka, but I disagree, they're muscly like mad (and only men). The only time I can think of fat characters in Final Fantasy is the midget races in the MMOs, and even then it's both genders that get the treatment, not just one. And they're only a bit chubby, really. Final Fantasy just doesn't do unfit characters in my experience. As for old, you get old women in FF just like you get old men. It might be slightly more favouring men if only because, in earlier years, Final Fantasy had a greater number of male characters in general. In recent years that table has most definitely turned (up until FFXV, naturally). Old women are known in the FF series, though.

Queen Brahne, actually. Maybe Steiner? I don't know. FF still doesn't exist in a vacuum though.

And fair enough! I'll hold my hands up and say that I don't care about that game, but rather care about how people and how they react to such a game. If they react in a bad way then I think people should deal with that problem. However, I've never been against getting a mixture of women into games (and comics, and film, and whatever else). I do think that game is biased towards guys in a notable way. I don't have a problem with any game putting in a female dwarf or a giant female, or a fat female, or a fat old girl. Whatever works for that game.

A wide range of males and very narrow range of females "works for that game"? Just...
. And we're back to the "Well the game is made for males so of course female representation is trout, because males view women as sex objects! Duh!" I hate you.

Also, that game is an example. It's representative of the status quo for female representation in games, especially playable characters. You're focused too much on that game being that game; it's a reflection of how gaming and the medial treat men

I'm focusing on Final Fantasy in my debate because I do believe that men are made to look as attractive as they could possibly be, and the same goes for the females. I think it's fair and equal.

Then you're being purposefully dense. It's pretty easy to make a list of playable characters in every FF game and categorize them as attractive males, attractive females, unattractive males, and unattractive females. Guess which column will be empty?

I'd give an example, but I have to finish this post and get ready for work. Side-ish note: I'm actually working on a study that analyzes this very thing, and hope to get my Kickstarter up sometime in January or February.

But we have to deal with the culture we're given.

No, not really. We can free the titties of their bondage if we just believe hard enough.

Anyway, I had to dig around your posts a fair bit to find the 96% thing, but again, it begs the question I posed to ToriJ: Perhaps females are less likely to let people know that they sexualise males. Perhaps females are less likely to sexualise males in general due to just generally not finding males as physically 'sexy', even at their prime, as a female can be according to men. There's a lot to mull over there, but I think you are right when you say it's a reflection on our society - but in more ways than you might initially intend to mean.

Or you could just, like, read books and stuff. The information is out there. Yeah, it's nuanced as smurf and it's really hard to separate nature versus nurture past infancy, but you seem to be pretty focused on reality being based around your feelings instead of looking at the information that's already right in front of you.

I asked Danielle what she considers to be sexy on a guy and we agreed that the most sexualised a guy can be is open shirt, jeans, buff. It's not much more than that. And that happens with the guys. It's just that... it's not as globally "OMG'ed" over, be that because of girls (and homosexual men etc. but you know what I mean) not playing the games, not being as vocal about it as your average straight guy is or perhaps just simply it doesn't get as 'hot under the collar' as a straight guy looking at a girl due to genetic differences or some other kind of cultural/scientific reason. I dunno. But a guy at his very sexiest will probably still never be criticised. My perspective? It's probably because guys just don't give a crap if a guy looks like Gladiolus. Is he being sexualised? Yes. Yes, he is. If he was only an NPC like Cidney, would anyone give a rat's arse? No, no they wouldn't. Just because most games sexualise women more than men doesn't mean that Final Fantasy isn't one of the fairest examples out there - they sexualise girls and guys. Anyone who argues otherwise makes me shake my head, because I honestly don't know how more sexualised a guy is supposed to be. Danielle said she preferred showing chest/abs, jeans, manly look. Tick, tick, tick. I asked if Gladiolus could have been more sexualised. Her answer? Hmm... no. She's happy. I'm happy. I don't believe that Final Fantasy sexualises one gender and not the other. No fat blokes, no ugly blokes. Some blokes with any sexualising possible done to them.

Also, I imagine based on the bits I watched of that video that it covers so much more than video games, let alone Final Fantasy, and I completely agree that it is wrong that 96% of sexualising is done using females, especially if using real females and with some of the taglines being read out in that video, which were majorly offensive (the "She might not be your first, but do you care?" thing - what the hell). What I'm getting at is that I don't believe Final Fantasy is part of that problem and I don't think they could sexualise men much more if they wanted to unless every male had their tops open, but then, often a female will be well covered so then it goes back to whether it's being fair or not to both genders.

But yeah, I just don't think FF is contributing to the 96% like you might (or might not!) feel it is. I think with FF, it's closer to something like perhaps 50-60% as I think 95% of the characters in FF games are designed to be physically attractive. It also may have something to do with those things I mentioned to ToriJ, again, though. I genuinely wouldn't mind someday sitting back and talking with you about it in person because I think it would be really interesting, but on forums I fear a lot of our tone gets lost in the internet and it comes out super serious so yeah, don't think I'm totally oblivious to oversexualisation of females, just that in fiction I don't personally see it as a problem provided the people - and I can only refer to myself when it's what I deem as okay for me - are capable of seperating fiction from the real world. I mean, I don't go watching Game of Thrones and deciding how to treat women based on that, either. It's important to be able to seperate the real world from games in this way. Or rather, real people and characters. I see Danielle doll her character up in skimpy clothes and I think the character looks sexy, she likes it. Another person's character - a male, even, playing as a female - dresses their character up and I think that character is sexy. Does that mean I instantly think the dude irl is sexy and treat him like a sex object? Hell no. xD

I think that, besides frequently implying that FF should get a pass for not being as bad as some series, you're ignoring normalization. What's normally considered sexy for a woman is to have parts of her exposed that would be covered by "conservative" clothes. Male sexiness is more about being powerful (muscled). I mean, yeah, that's fine--I'm way turned on by a guy with his sleeves rolled, but... it's not as simple as "everyone's attractive so it's okay." The entire point of Cidney's outfit is to give you something sexy to look at, to the point where her outfit makes no sense for what she's doing. Gladiolus having his shirt open isn't dangerous considering his profession. He's not wearing that just to give me something sexual to look at--male characters display their muscles to play into the power fantasy of the male player. Unrealistic bodies on male characters are typically about male power fantasies, and unrealistic bodies on females are typically about male sex fantasies.

Also, I often see people argue in the same breath that it's okay for the women to be sexy because games are for men and that the men are sexy for the women that the game apparently isn't made for. No, you were right the first time, the games are made to appeal to men. People say this as though it makes everything alright, but 1) maybe men constantly being told that women should be sexual and men should be powerful with big man titties isn't healthy for men either and 2) maybe making games purposefully (and cheaply, as Vyk so aptly described) appeal to these harmful tropes isn't the greatest thing to do. Maybe it's lazy and old and cliche. Maybe developers could try and make dynamic characters and stories instead of just going "Guys like tits! Put in some tits!"

[Night Fury]

Nobody would stop or look twice at a shirtless guy walking around tbh. A girl with a low cut top though - oh she's a slut for sure.

Also, to the point of 'but guys are sexualised in movies too' Yes, I guess they are. But they're also given fleshed out characters with importance to the plot. They aren't just a motivation device, a love interest...

[Pumpkin]

I can't argue on every single point in this thread, so I'll just elaborate more on my view.

Overly sexualized males also make me uncomfortable. Maybe I'm in the minority. Although I do believe they are presented in a different intention as opposed to sexual objects, but either way it does make me uncomfortable. I have nothing against people being sexy, dressing sexy, being sexual, I don't think there's anything wrong with nudity BUT when I'm playing a video game, it is not with the intent of being sexually aroused, and some characters are presented as being sexy FOR that purpose, not as a personality trait, and so it makes me uncomfortable. Just like I have nothing against porn, but I don't need it playing on the back of my cereal box while I'm eating breakfast. It's not the time for me.

As far as FFXIV characters, sexy outfits don't bother me because its a choice on the part of the player. I like looking sexy. As much as I'd like to say I want to lose weight to be healthy, it would be a lie. I want to be sexy. And that's okay. But that's my choice. I can choose to wear a sexy dress and feel sexy. However, if someone were to make me wear a sexy dress in public and it wasn't my choice, it would make me extremely uncomfortable. Now tone that down to video games.

I also have nothing against sexuality in a character when it fits the character. Some women like wearing jeans and a t-shirt. Some like wearing form fitting dresses. Some are shy or quiet or reserved and some like to flirt and be more openly sexual. Both are okay. But why is the girl who is shy and modest in every other way showing off her entire body? Sometimes it makes no sense. And that's when it bothers me. Not every girl wants to go out showing off 3/4 of her boobs and her butt cheeks. Some do. So make a variety of characters.

Also, it can be redeemed when the character is actually well written. Take Ayla from Chrono Trigger. When I first saw her I was like "Oh here we go, a cavewoman waxed all over except for her perfectly coiffed hair, showing off most of her body." I thought she was going to be Miss FanService. Instead, I found her to be a genuinely awesome and interesting character. When she actually became a character and not Miss FanService, the clothing doesn't matter to me as much because she's not just there to be objectified.

I also think a lot of the reason I dislike it is because its excessive. I can pick up so many game covers and not have to worry about seeing a guy with his crotch bulge in my face while making sex face. I have had to worry about picking up a game cover to see a girl bent over, or on her knees, with her (massive) boobs sticking out while blushing sexually. Like... why all the time. And its in movies and TV and its just... it gets to be too much, you know?

And also like Shlup said, its also harder to find diversity with women. Fat men, old men, short men, tall men, sexy men, stereotypically nerdy men. Women you largely have thin girl, slightly less thin girl who is somehow supposed to be a fat girl just because she isn't rail thin, sexy nerd girl, and my favourite: old woman who is 86 BUT LOOKS 19. Because you can't just like.. have an older woman.

I'm obviously generalizing (Suikoden for example has women of all ages) but it happens a lot. Or like how its more acceptable to have a fat man on TV, but if a woman is fat or ugly its like... the entire plot of the show. Eventually it just gets exhausting you know?

Anyways, like I said, I'll have to wait to see the character, but my main issue lies with women who are created with the intention of being sexually objectified. Like that's their entire purpose. That's why they exist. And that makes me uncomfortable whether its a male or female, it just is usually female

[Hannibal_Khan]

First, Shlup, if your going to cite a source, you should do it properly and not have the link embedded in a sentence in the middle of long paragraph. Very easy to miss.

I also have a small issue with the fact that are no sources cited for her(the female speaker in the video) research in the video description. Did any of you research her claims any farther than watching said video? I doubt it. And you people call my scientific method into question..

Your original statement was-

Originally Posted by ShlupTo be fair, according to video games, 90+% of women have large breasts without the trunk and thighs to support them.

This is what I took issue with. This is factually incorrect, and not even supported by the evidence you gave. The woman in the video said "96% of sexually objectified images are of women". 96% of the images they deemed sexually subjective. That is quite subjective in it's self, but we have no way to check her methodology b/c their are no sources to check her research. Also, that doesn't support your claim that "90+%" of women in video games have large breast.

What you've done, is to try to put everyone that doesn't agree with your view that Cidney's attire is inappropriate on one side of the fence(the one where your are a misogynist/sexist), and yourself & those who agree with you, on the other side(the side of righteous).

I never said women aren't objectified more than man(see previous post). My argument was only that Cid's outfit is not inconsistent with with how FF characters are portrayed in the past(male & female). And you agreed, but yet you seem to have an issue with the fact that she has cleavage even though she's a mechanic. Why try and make this an argument about the unwarranted sexual objectification of women, when we know almost nothing about Cidney's character/personality? And, yes. It does sorta come-off as slut shaming.

[Loony BoB]

Shlup: Neither Cidney or FF exist in a vacuum, but I'm one of "those people" that don't think a game should try to balance out the rest of the world, I believe a game should be the fairest it can be, the best it can be. Final Fantasy is completely entitled to have a cast of attractive characters. I don't believe that Final Fantasy games are designed 100% for males. I do believe that the characters are designed to be as attractive as they can be and I don't think there is this huge imbalance in character models depending on the gender. So far I think FFXV has had "healthy/fit male" and "healthy/fit female". I don't live in a vacuum, nor does Cidney, nor does Final Fantasy. But that doesn't mean Cidney, Final Fantasy and myself all need to overcompensate to make up for the 96% out there. I think Final Fantasy are one of the few out there who are doing it right, or extremely close to right, and I'm not the kind of guy that believes they have to be the ones to add in a complete cast of ugly ladies with two sexualised men to attempt to balance out all the inconsistencies the rest of the media world has.

Don't call me "purpopsefully dense". You're going around insulting my intelligence or attitude or integrity and I don't appreciate it. Debate the details, not the person, or stop debating at all.

Regarding your reasoning for calling me purposefully dense: I do believe that unattractive males barely exist in Final Fantasy, and I do believe there is the odd unattractive female in Final Fantasy, so while unattractive (males AND females) columns will be near-empty, they will not be empty. You yourself mentioned Brahne like... four sentences earlier as an unattractive female, negating your point. Despite this I don't believe you are purposefully dense at all.

No, not really. We can free the titties of their bondage if we just believe hard enough.

I think it'll take more than just a few people 'believing' and I think you know that. You can't walk down main streets of cities with your boobs out without either acting out against the law and (much more likely) being looked upon by hundreds of people with all kinds of unwanted attention. As I say... we have to deal with the culture we're given.

Nobody would stop or look twice at a shirtless guy walking around tbh. A girl with a low cut top though - oh she's a slut for sure.

Disagree 100%. But you grew up in Newcastle, where guys are famous for taking off their shirts in any and all conditions, and now live in Perth, where it's super-hot yet simultaneously super-conservative, which may have something to do with it. Where I've live, if a guy is walking around shirtless people will be thinking he is trying to show off to the girls, or is a knob, or is generally a weirdo (unless it's a beach or an insanely hot day). If a girl is walking around with a low cut top, she is not instantly viewed as a slut. If there are people out there who actually think in the way you suggested (and sadly I'm sure there are), they are stupid and we shouldn't cater to their way of thinking.

Also, to the point of 'but guys are sexualised in movies too' Yes, I guess they are. But they're also given fleshed out characters with importance to the plot. They aren't just a motivation device, a love interest...

And we have no idea how relevant Cidney will be to the plot yet, so let's not jump to conclusions!

shion: I get where you're coming from but I think it's pretty rare in modern Final Fantasy that a shy, modest female is dressed in a skimpy outfit. Penelo springs to mind. Lightning, despite what people think, is someone I would call shy and modest. Fang is the opposite, I guess.

I agree it's excessive in general, like films, advertising, etc. I can only assume that this is down to marketing and that sexy men just don't make people want to buy things nearly as much as sexy women. That's a whole different discussion though and I haven't put much thought into it, but my general feeling is that it's a problem to which I don't know the solution without restricting freedom of an artist. And it's worth noting that in my experience, girls freakin' love creating art of girls rather than men. I think it's something about the generally more aesthetically pleasing curves on a woman as opposed to a man, I dunno.

[Sephex]

Know what would be really funny? If they named her Ciddie.

[Spooniest]

SE Employee #1: Have you looked over at the FFXV subforum on EoFF?
SE Employee #2: They're going crazy over Cidney...something about sexism.
SE Employee #1: Well, as long as they're going crazy.

[Ayen]

Her potentially being a well written character is just more reason why her outfit shouldn't have been designed that way. It hurts her character more than compliments it.

[Spooniest]

Name one universally positive, 100% non-exploitative female role model in the Final Fantasy series.

Good luck.

[Ayen]

Name one universally positive, 100% non-exploitative female role model in the Final Fantasy series.

Good luck.

That's the smurfing point.

[Sephiroth]

She has no actual relevance to the plot anyway. Hajime Tabata said that already.

[Loony BoB]

Her potentially being a well written character is just more reason why her outfit shouldn't have been designed that way. It hurts her character more than compliments it.

You could probably say the same about Gladiolus. Say what you like, there is no profession other than "male model" that requires his attire, and his job is supposed to be 'shield to the Noctis family'. Shield? Guy doesn't even wear a vest. xD

Also, just found out something interesting which might further explain the attire of various characters in this game.

Tetsuya Nomura would be the director and character designer, but not costume designer, as Square Enix signed a contract with Japanese fashion brand "Roen" to promote their clothing designs in the game through different characters. Roen Creative Director Himuro Takahara serves as the game's costume designer.

I guess we should expect fashionable costumes for fashion stores and nothing but fashionable costumes for fashion stores. I expect with the limited number of females that pretty much every female will be dressed by Roen.

[Spooniest]

Name one universally positive, 100% non-exploitative female role model in the Final Fantasy series.

Good luck.

That's the smurfing point.

And a fine smurfing point it is, indeed.

This is perhaps tangential, but at what point does fighting discrimination encounter ethnocentrism? Don't strain too hard on this; it's a dodgy ethical question no matter how you look at it.

Other cultures in the world have not seen fit to follow the progressive path of allowing women free reign to decide things for themselves and speak their minds. As abhorrent as it is to me, I just don't jive with the idea that it's my culture's sworn duty to change another culture to be more like mine.

Who would that culture be, if I changed it into something more like my own? Is it right for me to shame that culture for having different gender standards than my own?

The whole thing just seems muddy and full of contradictions to me.

[Ayen]

Her potentially being a well written character is just more reason why her outfit shouldn't have been designed that way. It hurts her character more than compliments it.

You could probably say the same about Gladiolus. Say what you like, there is no profession other than "male model" that requires his attire, and his job is supposed to be 'shield to the Noctis family'. Shield? Guy doesn't even wear a vest. xD

You can, if you want to continue to miss the point that's been laid out in this thread time and time again. But a woman is more likely to be judged by their clothes than a man will ever be, but if it will get you to stop mentioning him.

Gladiolus, button up your goddamn shirt!

Name one universally positive, 100% non-exploitative female role model in the Final Fantasy series.

Good luck.

That's the smurfing point.

And a fine smurfing point it is, indeed.

This is perhaps tangential, but at what point does fighting discrimination encounter ethnocentrism? Don't strain too hard on this; it's a dodgy ethical question no matter how you look at it.

Other cultures in the world have not seen fit to follow the progressive path of allowing women free reign to decide things for themselves and speak their minds. As abhorrent as it is to me, I just don't jive with the idea that it's my culture's sworn duty to change another culture to be more like mine.

Who would that culture be, if I changed it into something more like my own? Is it right for me to shame that culture for having different gender standards than my own?

The whole thing just seems muddy and full of contradictions to me.

Seeing that America doesn't appear to be much better than Japan in this area I fail to see how my criticism falls on wanting to convert an entire culture to my own. This whole debate happened because the Colonel said boobs, so people who liked the outfit ran to its defense and argued with anyone who dared to criticize it, as is the case every time a topic like this comes up.