Will Final Fantasy XV's Cid be a Lady?

[Fox]

Oh hey, sure is nice to see the same arguments we went over 26 pages ago get dragged up again. Means I don't have to go back to read them all and feel depressed again.

But i guess i shouldn't expect anything more from a woman. A woman with a brain 'a third' the size of a man's brain. It's science...

Hmm, I think I missed the part where a sexist remark from Ron Burgundy was a good idea. When he says it, he is a joke character whose stupidity and sexism are being mocked by the filmmakers. When you say it... you're an actual person talking to actual women. It doesn't have the light hearted "oh, aren't attitudes like this archaic and silly?" effect of the film. Even with a .gif.

I just said that FF's theme is exclusively about young hero's

Then what, pray tell, were Edgar, Sabin, Cyan, Barret, Cid, Vincent, Steiner, Auron, Basch, Fran, (omg a woman!) and Sazh doing in their respective games? The youngest of those is 27. They're not the majority of playable characters, most of whom are under 25, sure, but when you do get older characters (which you do, so it isn't 'exclusively' about young heroes) they are men. 10 times out of 11.

Let's have a few more rugged, badass women in these roles please.

Basically I just want more Judge Drace. Why can't she be in every game. Or have more than 3 minutes of screen time in the game she was​ in...

[Mirage]

yeah, true men have like brains the size of beach balls. Too bad they've got about the same contents too...

[Shlup]

10 times out of 11.

Actually it would be 24 out of 25, if we're counting Fran.

[Hannibal_Khan]

Let's have a few more rugged, badass women in these roles please.

Basically I just want more Judge Drace. Why can't she be in every game. Or have more than 3 minutes of screen time in the game she was​ in...

I'm not saying that I don't want older female characters.I'm just disagreeing with notion the series is sexist b/c of unbalanced representation. You want more balanced playable characters? Then tell me which characters are changed to achieve this. B/c every character has their fans among both genders, who are happy to have those characters. More "balanced" cast doesn't = better game. IV-X are great games, not sexist, and also don't have a balanced representation all female body types. Should the writers write their stories around some quota of balanced ages. Should character designers alter their vision of a design to meet a quota for non attractive character? My answer to this is, "Of Course Not!". You put the game in hands of the artist who create them. You allow them to create the game they want to make, the story they want to tell. If the cards fall and there's not a "balanced cast", that doesn't mean that the game is sexist (and by extension, the artist that create them). That has been the process in the past and it has resulted in some pretty great games. Let be clear tho, they're not great b/c their isn't a "balanced" cast, they're great b/c the creators were able to make the story and characters that they wanted to make. Like I said in several previous post, It's nuanced...

I liked Judge Drace too. Would rather have had her as guest member instead of that bratty prince, but that wasnt how Ito made the game. I don't chalk it up to sexism tho. You want a playable character like Judge Drace? Well I hope a future FF games creator creates a character like that and your wanting is fulfilled. But I say that the design should be the creators vision of the character and not just for an agenda to have more "balanced" cast. Compromising that princible is your best bet for getting both bad character and lousy games, imo.

Hmm, I think I missed the part where a sexist remark from Ron Burgundy was a good idea. When he says it, he is a joke character whose stupidity and sexism are being mocked by the filmmakers. When you say it... you're an actual person talking to actual women. It doesn't have the light hearted "oh, aren't attitudes like this archaic and silly?" effect of the film. Even with a .gif.

Well let me point out what you missed, Schlup asked me if why I was "so adamatley against gender equality". That's not a serious question. She's implicating me a sexist/misogynist. Thats an attack on my character, my morale standing. Yes, me, a real world person, Fox. She's done this more than once. At least when i retalliated i used a gif and the satire/humor was obviously implied. Do you think that was a "honest question", that schulp asked me? If my above explaination on views does not sufficiently convince you that im not a sexist, then what would? Do i need to list my views on all the issues of gender equallity in order to validate whether i can express my views on issue without being brushed off as just promoting sexist attitudes? B/c im not going to do that.......


Maybe at future date we could discuss our views on the issue in a more productive and less standoffish eniroment(which im sure im partially guilty fostering), but untill that time, i dont have the desire to dabate the topic any further.

[Fox]

I'm all for letting creators make what they want to make. But surely it's pretty clear how "the creators didn't want to make games with women in them" is sexist. Probably not maliciously so, but then most of the white people in '50s America weren't malicious with their racism either, they just assumed the attitudes they had been raised with - that black people weren't as capable/intelligent/moral as white people.

Same deal here. It's just ignorance, but it's still problematic. Being an artist doesn't give you a free pass.

You want more balanced playable characters? Then tell me which characters are changed to achieve this

Easy. All of them. Any of them. I cannot think of a single character off the top of my head from the series where it was 'important' that they were male. Perhaps the male half of relationships? So Cecil, Squall, Zidane, Steiner, Tidus, Balthier - there may be particular reasons you wouldn't change those. Perhaps Irvine because being a gross, sleazy dude was an important character trait.

Anyone else though? Swap 'em, change the pronouns and you're done. I can't imagine any of their characters would have been diminished by that.

[Pumpkin]

I think Suikoden does a good job with this, personally. Sure you get characters like this:

(SPOILER)


But then you also get characters like this:
(SPOILER)


There's a variety of women of different shapes, types, sizes, and ages. You can still have young, sexy women. Just, you know, not all of them

[Shlup]

I apologize, Hannibal, for failing to find a way to ask you to explain your position to me without sounding accusatory. I've tried to rephrase my request several different ways, but I seem to be unable to find a way to ask the question that makes it clear that I really am looking for you to answer. If my phrasing makes you feel like I'm trying to imply you're a misogynist, I apologize again--I have no intention of putting labels on anyone.

The reason I use the phrase "adamantly opposed to gender equality" is that you are arguing against me, when my argument is simply that the genders should be treated equally. I've listed several ways in which the FF series does not treat the genders equally, and you've agreed that they're not equal, but you dismiss those inequalities as not problematic. I explained three ways Cidney's outfit specifically is problematic, and you said I was being hypocritical for not giving Gladiolus's open shirt equal weight, despite none of those three ways applying to him.

I'm simply asking how wide the disparity has to be before you feel it is problematic, especially in the face of such overwhelming data supporting the claim that it's already well into "problematic" territory. I'm also asking what your motivation is for opposing the people in this thread who are in favor of equal treatment of the genders. The guesses I made seem to have offended you--that wasn't my intent; I just have no idea what your motivation could be here.

In regards to the way you've been painting my position, there are still some flaws. For one, no one has proposed a quota that ensures 100% tit-for-tat balance in every circumstance. All that's required is that game creator's be aware of the implications of the design choices they make. I appreciate that you want to defend "artists," but you'll be hard pressed to convince me that giving Lightning a jiggly boob job is them being "artistic" and "creative."

If the cards fall and there's not a "balanced cast", that doesn't mean that the game is sexist (and by extension, the artist that create them).

There are no "cards" falling; there is someone behind every decision. We can give things a pass on a regular basis--it's okay to have games with male casts or with female casts--but when one gender is consistently less represented than the other but also consistently more sexualized, that is sexist, and that is something an "artist" should consider when designing their world and story.

To give another example, sitcom writers are actively moving away from the "dumb dad" trope because it's become problematic and offensive. I know so many dads (and non-dads, and women) who are irritated that TV shows portray them as incapable of caring for their own children. People have made it known that there is a demand out there for competent dads on TV, and now there's a a decrease in that stereotype.

And then there's those troutty live action Disney Channel shows where the tweens are constantly being troutty to their stupid parents. If you think media doesn't influence our attitudes, spend time with a kid whose parents let them watch those. All of my friends have banned their kids from watching them because as soon as they do, their kids start disrespecting them. Hopefully Disney Channel will figure out soon that that trout's old.

Again, I apologize for making you feel as though my goal was to call you a misogynist. I'm trying to understand your position and simply failing.

[Shiny]

But i guess i shouldn't expect anything more from a woman. A woman with a brain 'a third' the size of a man's brain. It's science...

Given that you say you have a larger brain than that of all women and that you infer that brain size some how equates to intelligence, you should have known that this post was completely uncalled for and should have also known to not post it. Do not post things like this again. Consider this a warning.

[Freya]

Hajime Tabata did an AMA today and while it focused on Type-0 some XV questions were in there as well.

What can we expect in Episode Duscae?
In terms of Episode Duscae...you'll find out if Cindy is this game's "Cid" by playing the demo!

So is she not THE Cid? But just a Cid?

[chionos]

Hajime Tabata did an AMA today and while it focused on Type-0 some XV questions were in there as well.

What can we expect in Episode Duscae?
In terms of Episode Duscae...you'll find out if Cindy is this game's "Cid" by playing the demo!

So is she not THE Cid? But just a Cid?

I don't understand. I thought it was already mentioned by one of the developers (I don't remember who it was) that Cidney is Cid. Why this nonsense now?

Also, I forgot to post my findings on FF's history of sexualization by gender. I need to make some charts. Be back.

[Sephiroth]

I am more amazed by the fact people still miss that Shidonii is Cidney and not Cindy. She is supposed to be called Cidney as she is at least a Cid and that is what her name is. Hopefully no one will do another mistanslation in the game.

[Vyk]

Hajime Tabata did an AMA today and while it focused on Type-0 some XV questions were in there as well.

What can we expect in Episode Duscae?
In terms of Episode Duscae...you'll find out if Cindy is this game's "Cid" by playing the demo!

So is she not THE Cid? But just a Cid?

I don't understand. I thought it was already mentioned by one of the developers (I don't remember who it was) that Cidney is Cid. Why this nonsense now?

Also, I forgot to post my findings on FF's history of sexualization by gender. I need to make some charts. Be back.

This is why I posted previously if this had been defined by the developers or if everyone just assumed based on her employment and name similarity. And there still seems to be a mystery as to the origin of this idea. It makes sense to assume, but I'm still kind of afraid it was all just an assumption in the end, and may not actually pan out. Especially since place still keep changing randomly between calling her Cidney and Cindy. They're both floating around pretty prevalently depending on how or how they decided to translate it :/

[Shlup]

If she turns out to be just some ho, I would feel much better.

Waiting on those charts, mothersmurfer.

[Pike]

[chionos]

So here's the first set of charts and whatnot. I really did this for me, because I wasn't sure how the numbers were and I didn't want to keep spouting things without knowing for sure what the statistics were.

I think the stats speak for themselves. I'm not trying to interpret anything. I know what they mean to me, but I know others might see them differently.

These numbers show the total number of each gender of playable characters in each game divided by era. It also shows the number of characters who were designed to show an excessive or unnecessary amount of skin. I made decisions as equitably as possible. If I counted a female for showing an excessive amount of boob, then I also counted any male character who showed an equal amount of his own chest.

These charts do not necessarily indicate sexualization. That's harder to show, because of how relative it might seem to some, so I'm trying to find proof for each instance of proposed sexualization before posting it. There are a bunch of ways to try to show this, and it's hard getting it all tracked down and parsed and stuff.

NES era.jpg

SNES era.jpg

PS1 era.jpg

PS2&3 era.jpg

And here's the overall numbers. As you can see, the percentage of female characters who show excessive or unnecessary amounts of skin has almost always been much higher than the percentage of male characters who show skin excessively. In fact, there's never been a game with more male playable characters showing skin than female characters showing skin (by percentage). FFX might be the only exception, but I do think that's a result of the game setting dictating to the designers that basically everyone in FFX be half-naked.

Final Fantasy Percentages.jpg

1. Some other interesting gleanings include the fact that FF6 is the best game in the entire series, yet again, regarding parity between the sexes (I think FFX is an anomaly).

2. Notice the dip in overall skin% through what most people consider the best stretch of games Final Fantasy ever gave us, FFVI-FFIX, even though the gender gap remained (7-9).

3. Five games had 100% of its playable females showing excessive skin. 0 games had 100% of its playable males showing that much skin.

Here's Cid so far. Some of these numbers are slightly estimated, but I'm still digging to get it exact.

Cids age.jpg

It seems Cid's age is trending downward, albeit slowly, with two major dips in FFVII's and FFXIII's Cids both being in their 20's. FFVII's big dip really shows how SE likes its FF characters young. For six installments, Cid was in his mid 50's or older, and suddenly, when he's going to be a playable character, his age drops by ~30 years. I'm not trying to insinuate anything with this information, just find it interesting.

I'm working on some other stuff, primarily the ages. Some characters' ages aren't ever explicitly given so I'm trying to dig them up.