But they did increase her cup size from a C to a D because they just wanted her to have bigger boobs just cause. She went through 2 games without them. What was the reason? So her boobs look better in outfits? Because, jiggle?
Master of the Fork
Cid's Knight
But they did increase her cup size from a C to a D because they just wanted her to have bigger boobs just cause. She went through 2 games without them. What was the reason? So her boobs look better in outfits? Because, jiggle?
It's because she's her creator's waifu.Originally Posted by Freya
She was a terrible character from the start.
There once was a thug named Brown.
Who bum rushed a cop with a frown.
6 bullets later
He met his creator
Then his homies burnt down the town.
It also begs the question: If most people actually didn't notice, what the hell was the point of doing it in the first place?
everything is wrapped in gray
i'm focusing on your image
can you hear me in the void?
These are not the creators of games that I want to play.
Who wastes precious billable hours on ball-smashingly expensive computers, developing a game for a series that has supported the company since its creation, just to make the main characters' tits wobble around!?
D:
That's a waste of smurfing time.
Hey, we don't even have a bingo yet. That's heartening.
Why is the characters age an issue?. The characters are they're respective age's b/c thats how the stories were written. What's wrong with that? 'A young group of friends join together and fight to save the...', yada yada yada, they're all hero's- this is FF in a nutshell. Alot fans of the series seem fine with that..FF's female playable cast is entirely young, pretty (except for Freya) women, while the men have a full range of ages and types.
There's not any "non-pretty"(polite way of saying ugly) male characters either. Some of them look average but quite a few would be classified as "sexy", and all are thin or muscular. Similarly, there's not any "non-pretty" female characters, some are "sexy" but many would be considered average/normal looking. Why does the FF series have an obligation to make "non pretty" playable characters? I don't think the they should have to shape their vision of characters around the fear that there designs may be deemed sexist for not meeting some quota for character diversity.
Yes, Cidneys outfit is unreasonable for a real world mechanic, but Gladiolus open leather vest and abs would be a pretty lousy defense against bullets in the real world too. I see no logic in that argument, and I don't understand how you can keep reverting back to it. You say she's dressed like a "smurf doll", I still think thats just a different form of slut shaming. You make the assumption that just b/c her design is sexy that she will only be a sexual object. But FF doesn't have a history of doing that(imo), so i'm not under the impression that Cidneys character will be any different.The first and only female Cid is dressed like a smurf doll for her role as a mechanic.
So, you are saying that FF's are sexist games? Their portrayal of female characters is responsible(at least in-part) for real world sexism? And, believe me, I have zero intention of throwing away any of my games because you deem them sexist. I'll take my good games over "politically correct" games any day.Like, dude, you don't have to declare FF The Most Sexist Game Series of All Time and throw all your games away, but when you say the games just aren't sexist I just don't even know what to say to that.
In regards to the Lightning issue; I haven't played LR but i will give some opinions on the issue of her breast and the jiggling of said breast. First, they shouldn't have increased her size. Seems ridicules to change the original design for the 3rd game. The 'jiggle mechanics' thing is more nuanced tho. Breast are not static, they do jiggle. So I think jiggle mechanics can(and should) be used appropriately. I don't think boobs should just stay in the same place like plastic while the rest of the VG mechanic are becoming more realistic. But i'm not defending how they were used in LR(considering i havent even played the game so I can't really give an opinion on it).
You can highlight "Art shouldn't be censored" and "male babrbarians also fight half-naked" on your bingo board now too, i suppose.
Master of the Fork
Cid's Knight
But the reason wasn't for realism, it was for jiggling. What's your comment on that being a obviously sexist(read the quote again if you disagree) move by square enix and it being the most recent FF released? Do you feel that with XV being in development for so long, it was being produced the same time as LR, that those ideals could have been a factor in this new character's design? If not, why not? The same team is working on XV now.
I said i wasn't defending how the jiggle mechanic was used in LR(I haven't played it). I was saying that VG boobs shouldn't just stay still like plastic and implementing some kind of jiggle mechanic is not necessarily sexist.
Schulp said "Toriyama specifically states he purposefully made this feature", so the blame is clearly on toriyama. Toriyama is not directing XV, Tabata is. Toriyama didn't design XV's characters, Nomura did.The FF series is a lot bigger than just games toriyama has directed. And, imo, the series does not show a history of "reinforcing sexist attitudes". And as much as I hate to defend Toriyama, I don't think his body of work is littered with sexism. They are mostly sub-par games tho, imo. But one instance of obvious sexism by one director is no reason to put the whole series on blast.
I hear the argument that the cast should be "more balanced", but i disagree. I don't think a artists should have to shape their vision of characters around some quota of "balanced representation", just for sake of doing so.
Master of the Fork
Cid's Knight
I don't think anyone said it should be "more balanced". The complaint is that the existing female characters are hyper sexualized merely because mmmm girl
If you can't even acknowledge an imbalance in how the genders are treated when presented with a completely objective numerical fact then I don't even know what you're trying to do here. Yeah, it's just "how the stories were written." Nothing is ever sexist or racist or at all problematic if it's "how it's written," apparently.Why is the characters age an issue?. The characters are they're respective age's b/c thats how the stories were written. What's wrong with that?
Many posts ago we determined that male playable characters are two to three times more likely to have a character design not obviously made to be physically attractive to the player. Almost all of the female non-attractive characters were children, while the male characters were mostly non-children. But I suppose that imbalance is also somehow not a problem because that's just "how it's written"?There's not any "non-pretty"(polite way of saying ugly) male characters either.
You're right, they aren't obligated to not be sexist. It would just be nice. I don't think it's that much to ask.Why does the FF series have an obligation to make "non pretty" playable characters? I don't think the they should have to shape their vision of characters around the fear that there designs may be deemed sexist for not meeting some quota for character diversity.
I'm happy to clarify for you then. Cidney's outfit is part of a consistent pattern of sacrificing character design in order to sexualize female characters, while Gladiolus's shirt being unbuttoned is not. In addition to Cidney's outfit being part of a subversive pattern, it also breaks the pattern of previous incarnations of Cid--a character that's typically respectable, dressed in a way that makes sense for his character, and is often older. Immersion and credibility is being sacrificed for... eye candy.Yes, Cidneys outfit is unreasonable for a real world mechanic, but Gladiolus open leather vest and abs would be a pretty lousy defense against bullets in the real world too. I see no logic in that argument, and I don't understand how you can keep reverting back to it.
Someone else literally dressed her up to be oogled. She isn't real. Someone sacrificed sensical character design for the express purpose of giving you something to fantasize about. She is literally a sex object.You say she's dressed like a "smurf doll", I still think thats just a different form of slut shaming.
Treating the genders unequally would make them sexist by definition, yes. Are they the worst offenders? No, not by a long shot, unfortunately. Cidney and the Lightning boob thing are certainly running them up the ranks though.So, you are saying that FF's are sexist games? Their portrayal of female characters is responsible(at least in-part) for real world sexism?
Well, good, because I just said that wasn't what was required of you...? I'm confused why you're adamantly against gender equality. What is it you think will happen? You'll never see a sexy woman again? You'll see too many sexy men? You might have to play a female character that's in her 30s? Sincerely, if you could clarify what it is about gender equality that upsets you, it would help.And, believe me, I have zero intention of throwing away any of my games because you deem them sexist. I'll take my good games over "politically correct" games any day.
Also this. Yeah, breasts jiggle. Enlarging a character's breasts and adding jiggle for the player's pleasure is textbook objectification.But the reason wasn't for realism, it was for jiggling.
Well I was gonna make a comment about ages and whether or not some of this talk of FF's pattern of sexualization and sexism (specifically regarding character design) really holds up, but I want to have some sure-fire numbers so I'm going to spreadsheet this mothersmurfer. Might take a while.
Some early interesting numbers from FFII-FFIV:
Out of 20 playable male characters, there are five old men, and two little boys.
Out of 8 playable female characters, there's one old woman, and one little girl.
13/20 of the males are young, handsome men.
6/8 of the females are young, pretty girls.
The percentages are actually not far off. I think the problem there is that there's a disproportionate male-to-female number of playable characters. If there were more female characters would there be more old, ugly women?
More important, perhaps, is the comparison of the actual designs. Only three out of the twenty male characters show any significant amount of skin at all. FF2's Firion and big dumb Gus, and FF4's Yang. Only one of those three could really be considered "sexualized" at all, and that's Firion.
On the other hand, of the females, only the little girl, Porom(FF4), the old woman, Unei(FF3), and the runaway, Refia(FF3), do not show significant amounts of skin including cleavage.
That's 5/8 vs. 3/20. That's significant, I think.
It's important to point out that none of this really shows up so much in these early games given their pixelated in-game designs. Thus, these aren't exactly examples of sexism-reinforcing images, but it has other implications, and I'll get into that more later when I get the other games tabulated and finish the stats.
The list of playable characters includes temporarily playable characters (which I didn't include in my own analysis) but the list does not include Unei. Are you sure she's playable? It says she will help in a battle but it doesn't say you can play as her.
I appreciate the back up with the stats.
In the 3DS version she's temporarily (and only partially) playable. I'm trying to be thorough, covering all bases for those that might seek to use such trivialities to undermine the numbers.
Interesting fact about Unei:
She shows up alongside Doga (Unei's old male peer in FF3) in FFXIV, in which both characters are young, pretty, generic hyurs (...sorta).
They're hyper sexualized now??? Are we playing the same FF's? lol Dis FF, not Leizure Suite Larry. Honestly tho, which characters do you think are hyper sexualized?
@shulp
I did acknowledge the in-balance, but i'm saying it's marginal.If you can't even acknowledge an imbalance in how the genders are treated when presented with a completely objective numerical fact then I don't even know what you're trying to do here
That list is hardly "objective numerical fact". Totally subjective(you admitted this in an earlier post tho).And, imo, there should be 3 categories; Un attractive, Average, Sexy.16 unattractive males?!! geez shulp, you must have some pretty high standards lol. But seriously, i would be interested in seeing your list of the unnatractive males. But No, the number of unattractive females to males ratio will likely not be even on anybody's list. But does it have to be exactly even for you to think it's not sexist? For every unattractive male there has to be an unattractive female?
Not "we", just you(again, anyone's list of unattractive characters will be completely subjective). But lets use my list as an example; I have 5 unattractive females to 10 males. So there's twice as many unattractive males to females(based on my subjective opinion).That sounds like a large disparity, on face alone, but the difference is still only 5 characters. and therefor seems marginal.Many posts ago we determined that male playable characters are two to three times more likely to have a character design not obviously made to be physically attractive to the player.
So if a female is on the "sexy" end of the scale, her credibility is sacrifice and she is "literally a sex object", and that's it? she can't be anything else? No other layers or dimensions to her as a character? Well that just isn't true for other "sexy" female ff characters. Cidneys design is sexualizing but Gladiolus isn't? Hypocritical, bull trout.You seem to be saying that it's only sexist when female characters are sexualised.Cidney's outfit is part of a consistent pattern of sacrificing character design in order to sexualize female characters, while Gladiolus's shirt being unbuttoned is not. In addition to Cidney's outfit being part of a subversive pattern, it also breaks the pattern of previous incarnations of Cid--a character that's typically respectable, dressed in a way that makes sense for his character, and is often older. Immersion and credibility is being sacrificed for... eye candy.
Agian, does the ratio of characters have to be precisley equal to not be sexist. I believe the issue is much more nuanced and is therefor irresponsible to label the games sexist for that reason.Treating the genders unequally would make them sexist by definition, yes.
HAHAHA thank you, i literally laughed out load from that last bit. What, from my posts, leads you to believe I would have a problem with seeing "too many sexy men"? Beatrix is around 30, and i adore her character(plus she's just so DAMN HOT!!!). I have no issue with female characters in there 30's or w/e. I just said that FF's theme is exclusively about young hero's, and thus the disparity in characters ages are irrelevant, b/c of coarse there's going to be many more younger characters. That doesn't mean there sexist. But, in all honestly, whats not funny is that b/c i have a dissenting opinion to you on the issue, that you will label me as a sexist/misogynist and for some reason implying some homophobia, as a ploy to diminish my arguments...I'm confused why you're adamantly against gender equality. What is it you think will happen? You'll never see a sexy woman again? You'll see too many sexy men? You might have to play a female character that's in her 30s? Sincerely, if you could clarify what it is about gender equality that upsets you, it would help.
*snip* EDIT BY BoB: That was definitely inappropriate, dude.
I was referring to the 23 male playable characters that are older than the oldest female playable character.
No, it doesn't have to be exactly equal, but not being double or triple would be a start.
"We" as in the people participating in the discussion at the time.Not "we", just you(again, anyone's list of unattractive characters will be completely subjective). But lets use my list as an example; I have 5 unattractive females to 10 males. So there's twice as many unattractive males to females(based on my subjective opinion).That sounds like a large disparity, on face alone, but the difference is still only 5 characters. and therefor seems marginal.Many posts ago we determined that male playable characters are two to three times more likely to have a character design not obviously made to be physically attractive to the player.
That aside, a 100% increase is marginal to you? Wow.
I'm unsure why you think it's appropriate to take this one example an apply it to every circumstance. I am specifically talking about Cidney's nonsense outfit. We aren't going to make any progress at all if you take every opportunity to run off the deep end.So if a female is on the "sexy" end of the scale, her credibility is sacrifice and she is "literally a sex object", and that's it?
No, you're misunderstanding what I was addressing. I was explaining to you why the sexualization is problematic. I've said several times that sexualization is not the problem; it's imbalance that's the problem. I would consider it a personal favor if you would put some effort into remembering what should be a simple point, as your continued implication that I believe all sexy is bad is not helpful. I'm sure you don't want to waste your effort fighting phantoms.Cidneys design is sexualizing but Gladiolus isn't?
Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Usually it's a woman, but sometimes it's a man. It would be foolish to make absolute statements about complex issues.You seem to be saying that it's only sexist when female characters are sexualised.
I wasn't implying anything and I certainl didn't put any labels on you. It was an honest question.HAHAHA thank you, i literally laughed out load from that last bit. What, from my posts, leads you to believe I would have a problem with seeing "too many sexy men"? Beatrix is around 30, and i adore her character(plus she's just so DAMN HOT!!!). I have no issue with female characters in there 30's or w/e. I just said that FF's theme is exclusively about young hero's, and thus the disparity in characters ages are irrelevant, b/c of coarse there's going to be many more younger characters. That doesn't mean there sexist. But, in all honestly, whats not funny is that b/c i have a dissenting opinion to you on the issue, that you will label me as a sexist/misogynist and for some reason implying some homophobia, as a ploy to diminish my arguments...
*snip* EDIT BY BoB: Nothing to see here, folks, just a response to something that was deleted in another post.
Posting Permissions
