They also made Fantasy Life which is pretty amazing.Originally Posted by Pumpkin
Level 5 also made Dark Cloud games and those were awesome
I am loling at making a character you don't really use though
Also, love my PS3, use that thing so (too) often
I missed out on a PS3, though. Might get a PS4 for XV and KHIII, but I'm mostly a handheld gamer. And I use my 3DS way too often :P (my Vita's getting a lot of action lately too)
Honestly, it was my least favorite generation as well. I'll be first in line to say the PS3 library doesn't hold a candle to its predecessors - but that's gaming in general. The glory days of home console RPGs truly are are over and you need to find them somewhere else or enjoy your devices for what they can do. Not vilify mediocre games for making you regret your purchase
Along those lines, you say I enjoyed WKC because of the drought and I did but that's not something I realized in hindsight. Like I always say with XIII, I absolutely recognize and call out flaws but I also give fair credit to what games get right because life is too short to bitch about the entertainment I consume. I'm just so sick of this fractious, black-and-white internet discussion culture where we overlook redeeming qualities in writing snarky critiques to either score points or get attention from like-minded individuals. Here, you couldn't even praise the combat system without saying combos lose "wow" factor or you see everything too quickly, which is about as vague and ambiguously critical as whatever you are trying to convey about VC's UI. Which makes it ironic when Fynn praises you for clear articulation, before twisting my own words to attack meWho also admits never owning PS3, presumably never playing VC or Demon's Souls, yet is comfortable calling the generation for the Wii (didn't even the Xbox 360 have better JRPGs?)
Gotta love EoFF!
It doesn't have Xenoblade or the Last Story.Honestly, it was my least favorite generation as well. I'll be first in line to say the PS3 library doesn't hold a candle to its predecessors - but that's gaming in general. The glory days of home console RPGs truly are are over and you need to find them somewhere else or enjoy your devices for what they can do. Not vilify mediocre games for making you regret your purchase
Along those lines, you say I enjoyed WKC because of the drought and I did but that's not something I realized in hindsight. Like I always say with XIII, I absolutely recognize and call out flaws but I also give fair credit to what games get right because life is too short to bitch about the entertainment I consume. I'm just so sick of this fractious, black-and-white internet discussion culture where we overlook redeeming qualities in writing snarky critiques to either score points or get attention from like-minded individuals. Here, you couldn't even praise the combat system without saying combos lose "wow" factor or you see everything too quickly, which is about as vague and ambiguously critical as whatever you are trying to convey about VC's UI. Which makes it ironic when Fynn praises you for clear articulation, before twisting my own words to attack me
Gotta love EoFF!
/endgame
Also, it's not black and white. People have the right to dislike games, as they have the right to have things bug them. Writing and reading about that is fun and entertaining, especially if well-written, like WK's list is so far. I also like to read positive things on the Internet, really - there's room for a lot of this. If you must know, since it came out on steam, I intend to play VC anyway, just like I'm giving the XIII trilogy a fair shot despite all the bad publicity. There's a certain catharsis factor to slamming games and reading somebody slamming games. It's all still in good fun. I'm sorry if my comment offended you - I was trying to have fun with the thread. Sorry if it came at your expense
Tl;dr: I believe there's a place for everything. I'm loving this list so far, as it's really well-written, but I also like to look for positive things in games, as you may be aware from reading my top 25 list.
I'm starting to see how Wii won the last console generation war.
I love scathing reviews. If you couldn't tell from the EoFF general response to the VC post, that's not really what's going on here. Wolf's more or less been repositioning the goal lines for why this list exists since he created it, the latest rationale being that it's games which showed promise. If you read my first post, I can tell you that in no way shape or form was White Knight Chronicles "overhyped." A lot of us were happy to have a traditional Level-5 JRPG but we all knew from the marketing materials that the game was going to be generic, and the initial sales reflected that. That's why I have to raise my eyebrows when Wolf says he was genuinely shocked that the characters were archetypical and the writing was boring, particularly after how harshly he lambasts Dragon Quest VIII, their previous major console RPG. The only thing that surprised people when the game came out was how solid the online multiplayer was. It's a lot like his admitted grudge against the PS3 for not having more AAA JRPGs (it has a treasure trove of niche ones) - if I remember correctly, he purchased the system late enough to know which way the wind was blowing and he really has no one else but himself to blame.It doesn't have Xenoblade or the Last Story.
/endgame
Also, it's not black and white. People have the right to dislike games, as they have the right to have things bug them. Writing and reading about that is fun and entertaining, especially if well-written, like WK's list is so far. I also like to read positive things on the Internet, really - there's room for a lot of this. If you must know, since it came out on steam, I intend to play VC anyway, just like I'm giving the XIII trilogy a fair shot despite all the bad publicity. There's a certain catharsis factor to slamming games and reading somebody slamming games. It's all still in good fun. I'm sorry if my comment offended you - I was trying to have fun with the thread. Sorry if it came at your expense
Tl;dr: I believe there's a place for everything. I'm loving this list so far, as it's really well-written, but I also like to look for positive things in games, as you may be aware from reading my top 25 list.
I think it just eats Wolf up that Valkyria Chronicles and Demon's/Dark Souls are far and away the most influential and revered JRPGs of last generation, while Xenoblade Chronicles has already become the footnote he insists VC would otherwise be. And so we have the exaggerated "disappointment" of WKC or the asinine proposition that Valkyria Chronicles could ever be on any form of a Bottom RPG list.
For real - you're crazy if you were honestly going to shy away from it because of what Wolf said. A lot of enthusiast PC gaming sites are putting it on their Game of the Year lists for 2014.
I own WKC but I haven't gotten around to playing it yet. But, I did make a character; he looks EXACTLY like one of my real-life friends. I loaded up the game to show him and he initially thought it had some feature I had used to upload a picture of him.
I thought WKC 1 and 2 were amazing games. Still do. They were like better versions of FFXII with giant robot knights. A lot of people thought that the two games were the worst in Level 5's library. I say to these people: play Dark Cloud 1.
The main thing that hooked me was the battle system, and making my own avatar. The graphics were damn good too.
Also, I thought PS3 had pretty good RPGs on it and at least Sony was able to get companies to release RPGs on their system. MS didn't even try to get any decent RPGs for the 360 other than Vesperia and Lost Odyssey......
Xenogears is the tragic story of how your whole life can take a crappy turn, just because you happened to see a lady in a wedding dress before her wedding.
This boy is crackin' up, this boy has broken down
This boy is crackin' up, this boy has broke down
I never played White Knight Chronicles, but I've always wanted to! I really like Valkyria Chronicles also, but I have zero issues with your list. This is, as you said, a bottom ten list of JRPGs that you own. That's always been the case. If a game doesn't really mesh with what you are looking for in a game when you play it, of course it's going to hit the bottom of your list. Nothing wrong with that even if the game gets critical acclaim.
I forgot to comment on White Knight Chronicles.
Never heard of it.
"Do you even RPG bro?"
I used to! Back when Bush was President.
WKC release date: December 25, 2008
George W Bush leaves office: January 20, 2009
Bush SeniorWKC release date: December 25, 2008
George W Bush leaves office: January 20, 2009
Okay, so I'm not that old.
And Professor Layton.They also made Fantasy Life which is pretty amazing.Level 5 also made Dark Cloud games and those were awesome
I am loling at making a character you don't really use though
Also, love my PS3, use that thing so (too) often
Seriously, Level 5 has made some great titles, you can forgive them for occasionally making a lackluster one.
I have been putting way too many hours into Fantasy Life lately.
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Honestly, I do enjoy several games on the PS3, my issue with the system was the vast majority were multiplatform so enjoying them on the PS3 was really more of a coincidence. With that said, I do feel the console really did hit bottom this generation concerning JRPGs and it only bugs me because the PS2 may have actually been one of the best systems for the genre. It was a bit weird going from one of the best systems for the genre, which was still cranking out classics like Persona 4 right before the system lost relevance, to a system that seriously struggled to have a library, let alone a good one. I understand this is not Sony's fault, and technically I don't blame them for their games. The fact I'm ripping on more PS3 RPGs than other systems is because I own a PS3 and I happen to not like a good chunk of their RPG library. I honestly don't care what system it was released on, you're the one getting annoyed about me drilling games on a system you like; and this really has nothing to do with some anti-Sony hysteria conspiracy theory until you showed up and started blabbering on about the sky is falling and Kazuo Hirai is the Second Coming.Honestly, it was my least favorite generation as well. I'll be first in line to say the PS3 library doesn't hold a candle to its predecessors - but that's gaming in general. The glory days of home console RPGs truly are are over and you need to find them somewhere else or enjoy your devices for what they can do. Not vilify mediocre games for making you regret your purchase
Um I was pretty clear on the UI issue if you actually read the original post, hell I honestly felt I was pretty apologetic about not liking the game. I realized recently, in hindsight, I placed it at 10 probably more out of concern of the backlash I was going to get from it than because I honestly believed it deserved to be there. I moved it because in doing the other segments, I realized it was silly to place a game I can't stomach enough to finish higher than games I've actually had the patience to get through more than once.Along those lines, you say I enjoyed WKC because of the drought and I did but that's not something I realized in hindsight. Like I always say with XIII, I absolutely recognize and call out flaws but I also give fair credit to what games get right because life is too short to bitch about the entertainment I consume. I'm just so sick of this fractious, black-and-white internet discussion culture where we overlook redeeming qualities in writing snarky critiques to either score points or get attention from like-minded individuals. Here, you couldn't even praise the combat system without saying combos lose "wow" factor or you see everything too quickly, which is about as vague and ambiguously critical as whatever you are trying to convey about VC's UI. Which makes it ironic when Fynn praises you for clear articulation, before twisting my own words to attack me
Gotta love EoFF!
The main issue with the UI for me is the awful menu system between battles, it's unnecessarily clunky and in your way. I'm trying to play a game, why must you break up the cutscenes into bite sized segments when your designed to not allow me to skip them anyway? Why make me have to jump back to the menu between takes to choose the next piece? Just let me start the chapter and if I need to take a break between the story let me pause and quit and I'll choose the chunk then. Don't ask me each time I want to watch a cutscene VC, I don't exactly have a bloody choice in the matter now do I? Except maybe shut the game off and take out the disc and play something better that doesn't hold me to poor design choices. If I had liked the plot and characters, I could have probably ignored this fault but since I didn't, every time it asked me if I wanted to watch a cutscene, it really drove home the point that I really didn't and wish I could just skip to the fun part of the game.
My issues with its gameplay has less to do with VC itself and more to do with the sub-genre itself. Needless grinding on the same map; despite a wealth of options and unit types, the most basic tend to get the job done at the pace I like, making customization needless; and despite that the computer takes forever to take its turns, its sadly very predictable. It's like playing chess with a child for hours, amusing at first but eventually you just want to do something else and they insist on playing more despite being bored by the lack of challenge. I'm tired of the genre and I mention that in the VC section, it's the whole reason why I still haven't played Tactics Ogre because I know I'm probably going to get bored with it, I had to force myself to play through FFTactics: War of the Lions to the end because I'm frankly bored with the genre and I like FFTactics but it's gameplay no longer holds my interest like it used to. I'm sorry that I can't appreciate a love the rest of you maintain but I'm just done with it.
You and I definitely go to very different news sites because WKC was hyped before its release by a lot of game sites and magazines. Seeing how it was suppose to be this ambitious open-world JRPG, with online elements by Level-5, who were getting praised for what they did with DQVIII, (btw, they don't do the writing, that is all still done by Yuji Horii so saying I shouldn't be surprised because of my feelings on DQVIII is still valid criticism
As for the list, it was always my Bottom Ten, I even have criteria that I firmly listed the moment I wrote the first entry to help people understand why "such and such" awful game isn't on this list. This list only consists of games I own. I, at one point, thought all these games would be fun or worth having and I was disappointed. trout like that happens man, I'm not changing the goal line. No one buys bad games on purpose. This was never my "Worst Games of All Time" List because I would be far more scathing than I have been. I honestly feel I have been fair to the games on my list and I have been stating elements I like. I don't focus on them because these types of lists are not about that but I have made the effort to not show they are some awful monstrosity that should never be touched. I even told people in this thread to still check them out, its not like my opinion is some gold standard others should follow, of anything this list should just show how weird my taste in gaming is. I may have made a comment of why I feel a certain high profile games gets more attention than I feel it deserves, but my statement is an opinion, not me pushing what I feel is an objective proof because I frankly don't care that people love something I don't. This is why I haven't really pushed it because I have better things to do than waste my time arguing about which toys deserve our arbitrary love. I doubt putting VC on this list hurt its feelings. Its a piece of plastic with code inscribed on it that is read by a laser. I doubt Sega encoded it to have feelings that could be hurt by some dude on the internet.
Man I would hate to be in your weird echo chamber that makes some of the crazy stuff that comes out of your mouth sound sane to you.I think it just eats Wolf up that Valkyria Chronicles and Demon's/Dark Souls are far and away the most influential and revered JRPGs of last generation, while Xenoblade Chronicles has already become the footnote he insists VC would otherwise be. And so we have the exaggerated "disappointment" of WKC or the asinine proposition that Valkyria Chronicles could ever be on any form of a Bottom RPG list.
First off, I have never said anything bad about Demon's Souls/Dark Souls, if you really paid attention to some of my posts throughout the forum, you would know I actually really like Demon's Souls when it's not kicking my posterior and I only haven't played Dark Souls because I want to finish Demon's Souls first. I would honestly agree that they were highly influential games this generation, not just for the genre but gaming in general. The reason why is because they proved that a challenging and arcade cheap game could still make it in the market and people are not dissuaded by seeing a game over every once in a while.
I don't know how you can say VC is one of the most highly influential games of this last generation. Like what has it done for gaming? I'm not being facetious, I honestly would love love to hear you actually give me details about how this game has changed the genre dramatically since it was released and how games like FFXIII, Xenoblade, Disgaea, and the genre itself wouldn't be the same without it. How is something like Xenoblade not influential? I mean US fans created a movement to get the game released out here, VC fans can't even convince Sega to release the third entry outside of Japan, let alone get a sequel back onto a console. I feel the Steam movement will change some of that but I don't believe that VC is as influential as you make it out to be. So yeah, I would love to hear your explanation about why VC is the most highly acclaimed and influential title this last generation, though you should make a thread about it because I don't need this thread derailed anymore.
As for your complaints about negative comments about games to get all buddy buddy or draw attention to oneself, I would simply say you would be better off trying to actually do something rather than be counter-productive by jumping into such threads and bemoaning the negativity of the gaming community and the toxic nature of game sites. Do something, make a thread about positive things in gaming, try to elevate gaming through inspired dissertation rather than hijacking threads and trying to shame people into agreeing with your views. You are more likely to inspire change in people by living a good example as opposed to arguing with them or making long rants about the problems without actually coming to some solution to it. So I'm going to give you one. If you want more elevated thought and conversation about gaming that focuses on the good, then start doing it yourself, you can't nag people into doing what you want, they eventually resent you for it. So take this advice from a friend and try to change what you don't like about the people you discuss games with by living a good example of what they should be.
Last edited by Wolf Kanno; 01-14-2015 at 06:49 AM.
True beauty exists in things that last only for a moment.
Current Mood: And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe. Maybe this year will be better than the last. I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself. To hold on to these moments as they pass...
Yeah but if making fun of Wolf Kanno's taste is wrong then I don't want to be right! It's a hallowed tradition on this forum!As he articulates his feelings about the games very clearly, I say Wolf has a full right to dislike the games he dislikes. De gustibus non est disputandum, after all
*ears perk up*
Would you recommend WKC as a cheap pickup for a huge XII fan with no intention of experiencing the online content?
I'm discussing my 108, er, 111 favorite games of all time in THIS THREAD so go check it out and join the conversation!
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