I don't think I've actually ever played 100 games, and really, I don't think I'm pushing past 50.Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I'm betting on it being number one actually.
My list started off as a fun diversion from making my Top 25 JRPG list which itself was spun off from an aborted Top 100 List. I can narrow down the game but ranking them proved to be too much of a pain.
#25
It’s hard being a MegaTen fan in the US. You guys have been screwed over so many times, considering how botched the first translation of Persona was, for example, not to mention the crapload of titles that went unreleased at all. It was even worse in Europe, however. It wasn’t before Lucifer’s Call (you guys know it as Nocturne) came along, with Digital Devil Saga and Persona 3 following soon after, that the series actually saw the light of day here. It’s even harder to be a MegaTen fan in Poland, as JRPGs as a genre were never really a thing here. The 90s and early 2000s were spent on playing nothing but Heroes of Might and Magic III by literally everyone in the country, and when the PS2 era came along, I was the only person I knew with any consoles or handhelds. If I hadn’t been desperately searching for JRPGs on Gamespot, I would most likely never have even known something like Persona 3 existed. But Persona 3 is not my #25. Persona 3 merely introduced me into this huge, incredible series that I adore to this day. Still, Europe still has a weird relationship with it, and I had to wait for this installment for nearly a year until it finally released as an eShop-only title on the 3DS. My number 25 is…
SHIN MEGAMI TENSEI IV
Just to get you guys in the right mood, here’s a nice theme from the game.
So here’s how it started for me. It was a late November evening and I was home-alone. I was playing around with Pokemon Art Academy, but after hours and hours of trying to paint that perfect Charizard, I realized I suck and turned off the game. So I looked around the eShop. And then I saw it.
“Hey, it’s pretty cheap,” I thought. “I wanted to look into it anyway.” I told myself I would only buy it now since it’s got a low price, but that I shouldn’t play it yet, because I was busy. Yeah.
“Oh, I’ll just check if it works properly.”
“Oh, this is interesting… Let me just save.”
“S**t, it’s three in the morning.”
And thus my journey began, and what a journey it was! Following that, I spent every free minute I had playing this game, ultimately finishing it around Christmas (though I basically had to play through it twice. I’ll get to that in a minute). Now I know this game has garnered a lot of criticism, even from series fans, but hear me out. I have very valid reasons for not only liking it, but also considering it one of the most well-done entries in the SMT franchise. I’ll try to keep this spoiler-free, though some of the elements that really impressed me will be spoileriffic. I’ll be sure to mark those.
First of all, the setting in this game is phenomenal. Yes, you’ll spend the majority of the game exploring a post-apocalyptic Tokyo, like in the other three main entries, but there is a big twist to it. You don’t actually start the game in Tokyo. Your journey starts in the Eastern Kingdom of Mikado, a late medieval period-looking town, with some feudal Japanese elements thrown in. This might not seem like much, but it’s interesting how a traditional SMT COMP that displays text in kanji is called a mystic Gauntlet with mystic script on it. Other modern devices you’ll come across later on are referred to by the people of Mikado as mystic relics, adding further to the eerie anachronisms. All this makes you wonder: “What the hell happened to this place?” Uncovering this mystery becomes a central plot point, and I do like me some mysteries.
The story is well-paced, with tons of optional side-quests (managed by your AI computer buddy, who is voiced by Ali Hillis – Lightning herself) being basically the only thing between one story-relevant cutscene and the next. Now, I know I may be in the minority here, but I really enjoyed the characters and their interactions in this game. The characters may be painted in broad strokes compared to other modern games, but their relationships seem genuine, (SPOILER) and the inevitable corruption of their friendship (a staple of the series) becomes all the more painful. I’ll move on to the characters and themes in a moment.
The gameplay is pretty stellar. SMT IV uses a mix of 3rd- and 1st-person perspective, the former used for field exploration, while the latter for battles. Like in all other mainline SMT games, in SMT IV you control one human character, and your whole party is comprised of demons you recruit and fuse. SMT IV utilizes the press-turn system from previous games, which grants you additional turns for striking the enemy’s weak point and penalizes you for missing and hitting a resistance, making battles fast, strategic, and exciting. Demon fusion can be accessed anytime and anyplace, so tweaking your party is easier than ever before, especially since you get to choose which skills your demons will get to inherit. Some changes were pretty weird, though. There is no defense stat in the game. At all. All that matter is attack power and HP, when it comes to damage output. The upside of this is that battles take much less time than before. The downside is that even low-level demons can beat you up later in the game if you’re not careful. I am endlessly grateful for the ability to save anywhere, however. I also noticed the game is substantially easier than others… at least later on. The beginning is pretty punishing and may be a trun-off to many.
Among other changes is the music. People familiar with Shoji Meguro, who has composed for the entries that have been the most popular lately, did not take part in composing this soundtrack. However, the guys responsible for this soundtrack do an outstanding job. There’s plenty of remixes of tracks from previous entries, making this a very welcome nod to faithful fans, but the new tracks we get are also pretty amazing. The music is one of the main reasons for the game’s heavy, eerily oppressive atmosphere. Just check out the opening theme:
A change that did not sit well with me, however, was the demon designs. MegaTen is a series where most of the demon designs stay consistently the same in all entries, but for this entry, some new people were hired to handle new demon designs. Some of the demons (like Lilith and Minotaur) look really badass, but then we get to atrocities like Lucifer, who went from this:
and this:
To this:
Oh God, kill it with fire!
Now, the characters in SMT IV are something I’d especially like to address. People mostly came into this game expecting something along the lines of Persona when it comes to characters, but SMT was never that. Persona is a very character-driven game, and while they are technically part of the same franchise, the mainline SMT series was never like that. The characters, while remaining individuals, are more there to represent certain values and ideologies than be fleshed out, living, breathing human beings. And that’s okay. For a story as dark and as focused on its setting, concerning the fate of humans and what we do with the world, I think this approach is optimal.
Each side of the conflict makes a compelling argument.
SMT IV also sees a return of the classic alignment system, where you get to side with any of the three ideological factions to determine the ultimate fate of Tokyo. And thus, there are multiple endings. I love how the factions are presented in this game (especially since there’s a surprise fourth faction that offers a very meta twist to the whole series), but I really hate how your alignment gets calculated. Namely, before this game, your alignment was determined by the decisions you made in very important moments, where it was made clear that this is where your alignment changes. Now here, almost every little decision give you points, either toward law or chaos. To remain neutral in the end, you need to stay very balanced, as out of the 200 points available between borderline law and chaos, only sixteen points are devoted to neutral. Anything beyond 8 and you’re lawful, anything below -8 and you’re chaotic. While this is thematically justified, it’s actually really frustrating if you can’t agree with either of the two factions and want to go neutral, like me. I don’t think there’s any way to know that you’re not going to be accidently not-neutral if you play without a guide. Thankfully, there’s a handy reset button near the alignment lock, and catching up is really easy because you get to keep nearly everything in New Game +, including equipment, levels and your demon compendium. Yes, this happened to me. This is why I had to beat it twice.
Now, I can say that it was all worth it. The neutral ending is very satisfying. Like in most MegaTen games, there’s a very strong catharsis factor to the game’s ending, due to the moral ambiguity making any small success you achieve all the sweeter. I can recommend this game to fans of the series, just don’t expect anything like Persona. As for newcomers… I think this may actually be the best entry point in the series yet. If you’ve never played any SMT and are interested, this game is most likely your best bet. It’s dark, ambitious, and probably as accessible as SMT is ever going to getThis one is definitely one of those games that shouldn’t be skipped. So if you have a 3DS and some money to spare – what are you waiting for?
Shin Megami Tensei? Never heard of it 8D Okay, so I have. Never played it though.
Ahh! Lilith's gonna eat me! This isn't sexy at all.
I've heard of the series before, but never actually seen screenshots. So is it basically: demons run amok, save the day? Or am I grossly oversimplifying the story?
Anyway, it sounds interesting. So Fynn, if you say IV is the best starting point, does that mean they are unrelated to each other in the series?
Demons run amok, yes, but saving the day isn't really the solution hereI've heard of the series before, but never actually seen screenshots. So is it basically: demons run amok, save the day? Or am I grossly oversimplifying the story?
Anyway, it sounds interesting. So Fynn, if you say IV is the best starting point, does that mean they are unrelated to each other in the series?It's mostly demons run amok because humans are huge smurf-ups. You usually get to decide what to do with the world post-apocalypse. And that's just on the surface.
When it comes to continuity, I and II are one story, but III, Strange Journey and IV are all their own continuities. So yeah, you can pretty much go into this without playing any of the others.
That works, but her hair is all wrong.How about old Lilith?
Well, there's two more to choose fromThat works, but her hair is all wrong.How about old Lilith?
EDIT: Holy trout. I just noticed that throughout all of these designs, this lady consistently has only three fingers per hand and three toes per leg.
Lilith's hair is red, dammit! Red!
*flips trout over minor detail*
So there were two things I noticed when watching LPs, reviews, and trailer that concerned me
Drab, dark setting
Demon characters
Your review pushes it further that way. Sorry, Fynn, I know you want me to be interested but I'm really really not.
I played a game called Digital Devil Saga and if I had to pick an all time least favourite game, that would be it. The setting was bleak, the character art was hideous (to me) and the effin demon characters gave me so many nightmare. I have never hated a game with the same fiery passion I hate that game, a passion that makes me want to buy every copy I can find just to smash it and burn it and scream and cry all at the same time
This series and the Persona games remind me so much of that
Oh, I will get to both DDS and Persona. Hopefully you'll get to understand where I'm coming from
Could be, could be
#24
There’s something to be said about games that are too ambitious for their own good. You often end up with a complete mess of a product, true. But then again, once you get past the initial clunkiness, you really get to see how much care and love was put into conceiving this title, and you see the gem for what it really is, no matter how frustrating its coating may be. I am talking, of course, about…
XENOGEARS
I’m gonna make starting these off with a piece of music from the game a tradition now
In my high school years, I spent many an afternoon on playing PS classics before going to music school. I never had a PS1 and once the PS2 came along and I finally got one, no one around sold the old games anymore. So when I got the PS2, a whole new world of opportunity opened up. So I was browsing the EoFF main site and reading articles about the different games. Xenogears seemed interesting. I had one of my many Evangelion phases at the time, and this looked similar. From what I read on Wikipedia, it seemed that this game was the JRPG equivalent of Planescape: Torment, as my then-girlfriend, now-wife put it, what with its emphasis on story and in-depth study of philosophies. And so I downloaded Xenogears. And I was hooked. This was also one of the games that made me post more on these forums. Wolf Kanno was a big help when I had some problems with the game
Pretty much exactly what he said to me then.
There’s so many ways this game is special for me. A lot of you may know, being Catholic, I’m also a big fan of religion in general, including the use of religious symbolism and iconography in the media. Heck, I’m trying to write my own sci-fi novel with heavy religious themes, and it’s partly influenced by Xenogears too
The game sadly suffers from what I mentioned earlier. It was too ambitious for its time, had too little funding, so tons of content had to be cut, relegated to other games in the universe that would never come to be in the way they had been envisioned. It really is a pity considering how Takahashi and Saga really fleshed out all these amazing details, and how Xenosaga never really delivered in the way they hoped it would. Though I would argue that the chopped-up nature of the second disc and the way it forced them to present those events made for some very artistic decisions which, IMO, sometimes elevated Xenogears to something much, much more meaningful than just a game. It doesn’t hurt that Mitsuda’s soundtrack to this game is magnificent. Just take a listen:
So, with a story this fantastic, why is this game not higher on the list? Like I said, I still love it to bits, but besides the game being too ambitious to actually be realized, Xeongears had some very big flaws, IMO. In general, I can enjoy mood whiplash, but in a story of such caliber with such threatening villain and the stakes so high, some of the comedic elements were really, wildly inappropriate.
CHU-CHU DIED FOR MY SIIIIIINS!!!!
There’s even some music I just can’t stand, despite what I said earlier. The gameplay seems to carry a lot of potential, but it seems that it didn’t even get a chance to realize it all. I liked the hand-to-hand combat just fine, but the Gear battles were always really stressful for me, especially since most bosses were relegated to Gear fights. And then there’s the mother**king jumping puzzles.
*uncontrollable screaming*
Whoah, I just slammed one of my favorite games hard
The plots of the game vary but basically the plots of the main game entail characters from modern day Tokyo learning about a secret war between the forces of Law and Chaos which is represented by religious and mythological figures, many of whom you can actually recruit. The gameplay is basically adult Pokemon where instead of collecting all the Fire Type, you're collecting the angelic host or Hindhu gods. Shiva is usually a total game breaker I might add.I've heard of the series before, but never actually seen screenshots. So is it basically: demons run amok, save the day? Or am I grossly oversimplifying the story?
The game's plot is focused more on exploring the themes of chaos, order and human nature. The plot's tend to be more subtle but you often get presented with pretty nasty choices like performing genocide to an entire race, collaborating with forces who keep the peace by doing absolutely horrible things behind the scenes or trying to help people only to learn to late the real circumstances of their problem. Really interesting is how often the series mixes in actual myth, legends and religious stories into the plot and side missions. It's a pretty meta series.
Fynn pretty much nailed this though SMTIII and the Raidou games of Devil Summoner hint that every game is connected via parallel timelines and worlds. So certain things do kind of cross over into other games but their more of a shout out fan service than some overarching plot that has to be followed.Anyway, it sounds interesting. So Fynn, if you say IV is the best starting point, does that mean they are unrelated to each other in the series?
I don't think I get the reference...
That's a shame and sadly I feel SMTIV does make a strong case for being one of the darkest entries in the series, especially when you get to Reverse Hills which made even Lilith and Lucifer go "That's smurfed up.". It's a good series but if you don't like dark and bleak atmosphere, then you probably won't ever like the franchise. Though I do feel Devil Summoner and Persona fall more into the cheery side of things. Maybe you should check out DemiKids instead? It's the SMT games that are targeted towards actual youth and is close to being a blatant rip-off of Pokemon and Digimon in structure and setting.
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As for the choice, I really enjoyed SMTIV, despite some of it's flaws I felt it was an excellent game and it's currently my favorite game on the 3DS though it wasn't good enough to dethrone Nocturne in my eyes it did make me hunger for more MegaTen and I still pop it in and play some more. The DLC bosses are brutal and finishing the Compendium can be very difficult especially since accidental fusions (which are the only way to make demons of two different class) are a near act of god to happen. I also agree that I really like the characters and the game's plot. There was more focus on making neutral not feel like the best choice and I absolutely love how the game forces you to actually explore and talk to people if you ever want to know what's up with Tokyo and the Eastern Kingdom of Mikado instead of just having some character sit you down and explain it all to you. It made exploring the world feel more organic.
True beauty exists in things that last only for a moment.
Current Mood: And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe. Maybe this year will be better than the last. I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself. To hold on to these moments as they pass...
Like I was telling Fynn, I'm not saying the SMT games are poor quality or badly written or anything. I just know what I (don't) like and I feel like this game wouldn't be a good fit for me
And Xenogears. I won't go in to too much detail because I have my own review of it to write, but basically my feelings can be summed up as: crappy gameplay, amazing story. I'm also a huge fan of religious symbolism, and I've always enjoyed Freud's theory on the Id, Ego, and Super-ego and here is a game that largely centers around that. And I think they did it well. Although I didn't care much for the characters as far as likable, I did find some of them well written, but the gameplay was just horrendous to me
Still a strong game though
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