The Order 1886

[Bolivar]

I understand where you're coming from, Fox but I don't think many of those games have additional gameplay systems, especially Halo, Battlefield, Wolfenstein, and Uncharted. With many of the rest of them, they really only have menu-based systems adding superficial depth. That absolutely ruined Far Cry 3 for me, especially coming off of Far Cry 2, where everything took place within the game engine, even looking down at the map. The Order has the same ethos, where you examine the collectible objects and read the lore pieces in real time. As someone who plays a ton of these games, I actually think it was a smart design decision to eschew superficial distractions and keep everything within the actual game. The cutscenes are similar, with no limitation between what you see on screen and what you can actually do.

This is something I talk about a lot with Final Fantasy VII and I would like to see in more games. In this way, The Order is actually emphasizing gameplay and interactivity instead of sacrificing it.

[Skyblade]

I understand where you're coming from, Fox but I don't think many of those games have additional gameplay systems, especially Halo, Battlefield, Wolfenstein, and Uncharted. With many of the rest of them, they really only have menu-based systems adding superficial depth. That absolutely ruined Far Cry 3 for me, especially coming off of Far Cry 2, where everything took place within the game engine, even looking down at the map. The Order has the same ethos, where you examine the collectible objects and read the lore pieces in real time. As someone who plays a ton of these games, I actually think it was a smart design decision to eschew superficial distractions and keep everything within the actual game. The cutscenes are similar, with no limitation between what you see on screen and what you can actually do.

This is something I talk about a lot with Final Fantasy VII and I would like to see in more games. In this way, The Order is actually emphasizing gameplay and interactivity instead of sacrificing it.

Could you go into more detail there? Not quite sure what you're talking about, nor do I see how it applies to FFVII.

[Fox]

I understand where you're coming from, Fox but I don't think many of those games have additional gameplay systems, especially Halo, Battlefield, Wolfenstein, and Uncharted.

Well, let's just look at one of the games you highlighted there to demonstrate where I see these discrepancies. Halo, for example. It's a good candidate because it in itself is quite a shallow game in many ways without much variety in gameplay systems, but I still think it succeeds where The Order does not. The two primary mechanics in Halo are the same as the two primary mechanics in The Order: 1) shoot stuff with some kinda gun 2) Avoid enemy fire and take cover to recover energy. Halo (Combat Evolved, specifically. The sequels add more depth but to be fair but let's compare first go with first go) better expands on those systems in the following ways:

• More weapon variety. Pistols, Assault Rifles, Sniper Rifles, Shotguns. Each game shares these, and The Order does have the thermite gun which changes the gameplay style and is super cool. But Halo also has Rocket Launchers, an additional grenade type (which behaves differently to standard grenades) and all the Covenant weapons. The Covenant function differently to the human weapon equivalents; for example the plasma pistol has infinite ammo but an overheating mechanic. The Needler does tiny amounts of damage per shot but the needles can home in.
• More enemy variety. The Order's enemies come in 3 forms: Normal humans, Shotgunners and Lycans. Each of these functions differently, is armed differently, and can cause you to adjust tactics. Halo has 4 variants for the Covenant (Grunts, Elites, Jackals and Hunters), 3 variants for the Flood (Infection type, Standard type and Combat type) and Sentinels (the laser beam robots). As with the order, each enemy requires a different approach, so a larger enemy selection = more gameplay variety.
• Integrated Stealth. Neither game has particularly good stealth mechanics IMO. But failing at Halo's stealth was not a failure state for the level, it just made enemies notice you and cause them to start attacking. So the game was broken up less by checkpoint resets due to failed stealth.
• Vehicles. Halo allows you to drive four very different kinds of vehicles. A jeep (with a mounted gun on the back that you could use while letting AI drive), an alien hoverbike that fires energy bolts, a tank and the Banshee - which allowed to fly around the levels and have dogfights.
• Much larger levels. Don't get me wrong, Halo had more than its fair share of single path corridor shooting. But it also had some big open fields where you could hijack enemy vehicles and fly them around. Or, if you had to take out an enemy tank, you could choose whether you wanted to try and find a rocket launcher to take it out or try and do it with grenades or perhaps even just ignore them completely if the odds were too stacked against you.

So games don't need to have huge numbers of incredibly deep mechanics, really. It is possible to have a game very focussed on a couple of core systems, but still have plenty of variation within those systems. Even if we ignore things like the vehicles and larger levels, just some more weapon and enemy variety could have made a world of difference in The Order.

With many of the rest of them, they really only have menu-based systems adding superficial depth. That absolutely ruined Far Cry 3 for me, especially coming off of Far Cry 2, where everything took place within the game engine, even looking down at the map.

I disagree about it being superficial - it is genuine depth. Football Manager is one of the deepest games on the planet and most of that is staring at a spreadsheet. Being able to present that depth in an immersive way is certainly nice if you can do it though. The inventory system in Dead Space is a good example, where it all just gets projected around you and doesn't pause the game (that's a really good one actually as it also adds the tension of being vulnerable as you tinker with your loadout).

The Order has the same ethos, where you examine the collectible objects and read the lore pieces in real time.

That's true and fine, and it's all good for immersing you in the lore, but it would have been nice if they could have added more gameplay systems to that style of presentation. Like, looking over a gun and adding/removing things like silencers or different ammo types.

This is something I talk about a lot with Final Fantasy VII and I would like to see in more games. In this way, The Order is actually emphasizing gameplay and interactivity instead of sacrificing it.

In terms of FFVII, are you referring to how story and gameplay are kinda seamless because it's all text based on the pre-rendered environments? So, the characters will stop talking and then you are straight back in direct control, there's no transition and disconnect between plot and game?

Because I can get on board with that. And even though I like my cutscenes, incorporating the story more with the interactive game is a good thing.

Apologies if I completely misunderstood what you were getting that with that point though!

[Bolivar]

Fox, first we were talking about gameplay itself, then you changed the argument to multiple systems, and now you're shifting again to variety, presumably because Halo doesn't have any systems on top of shooting. Even then, I think you're really exaggerating the discrepancy in weapon variety, when The Order also has rocket launchers, alternate grenade types, and a variety of secondary weapons which do mirror some of the things you're talking about with Covenant weapons. Having vehicles and open levels is a design choice, one that didn't particular work very well in terms of pacing. Likewise, Ready at Dawn focusing on the weapon feedback and physics engine, which is better than any I've seen, was an alternate choice which amplifies the tighter experience that I personally prefer. Like others who played the game before forming an opinion have said, the gameplay is there, and I think you're now starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel to try and take away from it. In any case, I really don't enjoy these debates once they start topic hopping in response to each counterpoint, so I'm just going to leave it at that.

Could you go into more detail there? Not quite sure what you're talking about, nor do I see how it applies to FFVII.

FFVII is widely considered the first game to implement seamless transitions between cutscene and gameplay. You would watch a cinematic and in the middle of it you would have control over the player character, without a camera break. The same thing would happen for a lot of the minigames. The Order is pretty much an entire game based around this concept.

[Fox]

Fox, first we were talking about gameplay itself, then you changed the argument to multiple systems, and now you're shifting again to variety, presumably because Halo doesn't have any systems on top of shooting.

Actually that was very much giving The Order as much 'benefit of the doubt' as possible, as of the games listed that have more important mechanics (and thanks to the vehicles and more open levels that allow for some verticality and platforming, Halo is still in that group), Halo had the fewest. So I then wanted to examine the depth within those mechanics to explain why I felt one worked where another did not.

Like others who played the game before forming an opinion have said

Such as me also. Although it wasn't my copy, I didn't buy it.

and I think you're now starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel to try and take away from it. In any case, I really don't enjoy these debates once they start topic hopping in response to each counterpoint, so I'm just going to leave it at that.

I think scraping the bottom of the barrel would be trying to say things like "but the shooting in Halo just felt so much better". But talking about the amount of different systems that exist and exploring the depth and variety within those systems seems pretty valid to me. Certainly much more so than saying The Order just focusses too much on graphics therefore it is bad. Which... I may have been guilty of earlier on, I can't remember.

ikewise, Ready at Dawn focusing on the weapon feedback and physics engine, which is better than any I've seen

The shooting does indeed feel pretty good. We can agree on that much at least. And I remembered another weapon I'd forgotten about that I quite liked: the detonator. So there's that.

[fat_moogle]

I completed The Order this afternoon and the ending left a lot to be desired. Overall I'd say that the game was "OK". It's nothing special. Yes it looks great, but the story was pretty predictable and the gameplay was quite shallow in some aspects. Together I feel this lead to a rather forgettable experience, and it's not something I'd play again.

[Mirage]

I realise it's going to be a short game, I'm expecting that. I traded in a couple games for it, so I didn't pay full price. I wouldn't have paid the full £55 the shop I bought it from was asking for. I'd say £27 was reasonable though so I thought I'd play it and judge for myself.

Those games you traded in could have been used to lower the price of a different game though .

I might get it when it goes sub-20 dollars.

But there wasn't another game I wanted Type-0 is the next game I'm getting and I'm prepared to pay full price for that ^^

Then you could have gotten something later .

Unless it was a special offer for the order only and no other games, this is basically like buying a gift card for 60 bucks, then use it on a game, and then say 0 dollars for a game is incredibly cheap

But again, it's not a problem to enjoy the order even if you paid full price for it. It's up to each player.

[Del Murder]

Such a polarizing game. I almost wan to get it to see where I land on it.

[Psychotic]

Yeah it's definitely something I'm going to pick up... once it's at a quarter of the price they're asking for it now!

[Rostum]

It's a real shame. The production value is there, it's an incredibly well crafted world that would have required a lot of effort, skill and talent to put together. However, it is a shame that the experience is so short lived, with not much variety in game play.

I would agree to wait until it's a cheaper price to get it, in fact if I had of bought it full price rather than have gotten it in a PS4 bundle (with some other games) I would have been a bit annoyed to pay so much. I feel bad for saying that, because it is a really good experience, it's just for that price I would have liked the experience to be much longer.

[Skyblade]

Watching through some of TotalBiscuit's videos, and I stumbled across this little gem, criticizing the game dev's claims about frame rate:
(SPOILER)

I wasn't aware it ran at 30fps. It does lower my opinion of the technical aspect quite a bit. Not to mention the dev's claims don't endear me to them or their work either.

[fat_moogle]

Watching through some of TotalBiscuit's videos, and I stumbled across this little gem, criticizing the game dev's claims about frame rate:
(SPOILER)

I wasn't aware it ran at 30fps. It does lower my opinion of the technical aspect quite a bit. Not to mention the dev's claims don't endear me to them or their work either.

I don't really get the framerate debate. Maybe I'm not as technically minded as some people, but if the game looks and runs smoothly (which The Order does) then does FPS really matter?

[Skyblade]

Watching through some of TotalBiscuit's videos, and I stumbled across this little gem, criticizing the game dev's claims about frame rate:
(SPOILER)

I wasn't aware it ran at 30fps. It does lower my opinion of the technical aspect quite a bit. Not to mention the dev's claims don't endear me to them or their work either.

I don't really get the framerate debate. Maybe I'm not as technically minded as some people, but if the game looks and runs smoothly (which The Order does) then does FPS really matter?

It does.

For one thing, there is the playability issues and how frame rate affects input lag.

Then, there's the other thing, that you are sacrificing frame rate for graphical fidelity. Bayonetta 2 runs at 1080p, and 60fps. The game looks stunning, and runs at a high frame rate. Now, increase the texture and model quality so that Bayonetta looks like Galahad (ignore systems limitations, we're just talking graphics for now), but knock the frame rate down to 30fps. The game will have higher graphical fidelity, sure. But it will not look nearly as good overall, because of the frame rate drop.

Dropping the frame rate is an easy way to squeeze higher quality graphics out of a system. Why, if you drop it to 15fps, you could render even higher quality models and textures! Sure, both the gameplay and visuals will suffer because of it, but who cares?


Finally, there's the developer's claims that they were rendering at 30fps as an artistic choice, because it looks better than 60fps, which is just flat-out lying.

[Bolivar]

Framerate is important to the extent that very low numbers lead to intolerably choppy animations. Generally, the higher frames per second the better, as it does indeed reduce input latency and is more comfortable for your eyes. 60fps has become the "gold standard" because many people mistakenly believe it's the point at which increases to framerate stop becoming appreciable. The real reason is because 60hz the maximum refresh rate of most High Definition displays, and since high end PC hardware is aimed at achieving maximum spec, resolution, and framerate, it's the standard to which gaming consoles are inappropriately held to.

Unlike PCs, consoles have limited power, while framerate and Image Quality exist on a sliding scale. Most game developers will tell you they would rather take a solid framerate at 30 and spend that extra horsepower on more robust graphics, physics, and game world - it's not just a graphical tradeoff. Hence why The Last of Us Remastered could achieve 60fps on PS4 but GTA V could not, despite TLoU being the more graphically sophisticated game. Moreover, developers can leverage motion blur techniques to make 30fps appear just as continuous and often more stylized than their 60fps counterparts. 60fps really is just a buzzword. Battlefield Bad Company 2 dispelled the myth last generation that it's necessary for online multiplayer games, much like Shadow of Mordor did so this generation for responsive action adventure games.

Personally, my R9 290 runs PC games up to 144fps on my high refresh rate monitor. The Order is still the most technologically impressive game I've ever seen.

[Skyblade]

Framerate is important to the extent that very low numbers lead to intolerably choppy animations. Generally, the higher frames per second the better, as it does indeed reduce input latency and is more comfortable for your eyes. 60fps has become the "gold standard" because many people mistakenly believe it's the point at which increases to framerate stop becoming appreciable. The real reason is because 60hz the maximum refresh rate of most High Definition displays, and since high end PC hardware is aimed at achieving maximum spec, resolution, and framerate, it's the standard to which gaming consoles are inappropriately held to.

Unlike PCs, consoles have limited power, while framerate and Image Quality exist on a sliding scale. Most game developers will tell you they would rather take a solid framerate at 30 and spend that extra horsepower on more robust graphics, physics, and game world - it's not just a graphical tradeoff. Hence why The Last of Us Remastered could achieve 60fps on PS4 but GTA V could not, despite TLoU being the more graphically sophisticated game. Moreover, developers can leverage motion blur techniques to make 30fps appear just as continuous and often more stylized than their 60fps counterparts. 60fps really is just a buzzword. Battlefield Bad Company 2 dispelled the myth last generation that it's necessary for online multiplayer games, much like Shadow of Mordor did so this generation for responsive action adventure games.

Personally, my R9 290 runs PC games up to 144fps on my high refresh rate monitor. The Order is still the most technologically impressive game I've ever seen.

While that's mostly well said, I call absolute bulltrout on the motion blur statement.

You can't motion blur to a frame or action that doesn't exist yet. When an action occurs between frames, one frame will have no indication of the action, and the next will have the action in progress. Even applying motion blur to that second frame, you cannot retroactively apply it to the first frame. Motion blur can help fix the flow somewhat, but it can't reverse time, and it will never look "more continuous" than the same systems and effects on a 60fps experience.