Final Fantasy VIII vs. Final Fantasy XIII

[Wolf Kanno]

Kitase did mention they were pushing boundaries with XIII, he even agrees with me that XIII isn't an RPG. Though I wouldn't be so arrogant to suggest they created a new genre either since the game basically plays the same as Xenosaga Episode II. He basically mentions in the interview they got most of their inspiration from modern FPS games which focus more on scripted events that pull the player forward.

[Bolivar]

That's ultimately the distinction I'm trying to get across - FFVIII consciously tread the outer limits of what could be accomplished by gaming, whereas FFXIII instead looked inward, at what had already been done by other genres, in hopes of creating a more streamlined single-player experience. It was a compilation of concepts and techniques others had already tested and tried out before, while VIII cultivated its own homegrown ingredients.

The argument can be made XIII was more successful but the ingenuity of VIII makes it more special to me.

[Forsaken Lover]

Okay, I'm ready to talk more about why the Catholic Church needs to add Final FantaY VIII as a cardinal sin.

Wolf, you think the cast is "charming." What you find "charming" others find one-dimensional and insultingly stereotypical. Take Irvine for example. You realize he's such a garbage character that the fandom has to invent depth for him? Look at all the "he was having trouble shooting Edea because she's like a mother to him" apologists.

That. Is. Crap.

The game tells us in no uncertain terms he can't shoot Edea because he always suffers from nerves. His Scan confirms this:
"An expert marksman. Can use specialized bullets to attack enemies. Doesn't perform very well under pressure."

This completely incompetent buffoon was assigned to handle the most important part of a mission that could result in god knows how many atrocities, deaths and other unpleasant things.



That's not charming. It's enough to make you want to grind your teeth until your teeth fall out. It is a slap in the face to any player who pays even remote attention to the plot and wants said plot to progress in any way that resembles logic.

There's nothing wrong with having Squall be the center of attention. He's a main character, no different from Zidane or Tidus. You place them at the forefront of the story and have them effect the story the most deeply. It does not mean you neglect your other characters and make them look like complete morons.

And finally, your entire argument kind of falls apart when you realize the game DOES try to develop these lousy characters. Rinoa gets plenty of focus, Zell gets plenty of focus, even Quistis will get plenty of focus if you bring her alone at certain points. It's just that this focus goes nowhere. Like Rinoa's relationship with her father, a frickin' key and vital part of the last act of Disk 1. It will go unresolved and unmentioned for the rest of the game though because Rinoa doesn't need to make peace with her dad, she's getting dick from her BAD BOY now.

It's smurfing repulsive.

Nowhere is FFVIII's abominable storytelling better seen than with Seifer, who the game just forgets about for all of Disk 3. Except at the end. Seifer received just as much characterization and development as Squall, in spite of your claims the game only cares about Squall. It's just that the game sucks and can't give him any proper resolution. It forgets about him just like it forgets about every other plot point.

[Ayen]

You seem to be neglecting the part that the people who set up the mission wanted them to fail to frame Balamb Garden for an assassination attempt on the Sorceress. NORG said as much in your encounter with him.

Or was that just their fallout plan to blame Balamb in case the mission failed? Dammit, I can't remember now.

Okay, I'm ready to talk more about why the Catholic Church needs to add Final FantaY VIII as a cardinal sin.

This is hilarious coming from a FFXIII fan

[Forsaken Lover]

Except Edea still came and took away Galbadia Garden and Martien is now langushing forever at Fisherman's Horizon.

His plan sucks, either way you slice it. Why does he even have Irvine in his employ if he knows Irvine sucks?

Also Squall and the others get their orders directly from Martine and I remember quite clearly Squall comments on the fact this was not an ordinary mission but a "joint" operation between Balamb and Galbadia. So it's not like Martine even covered up his tracks at all. He just kinda shifted the blame so Balamb would go down with him.

[Forsaken Lover]

Relevant dialogue:


[i]NORG: "Bujurururu! BALAMB-AND-GALBADIA'S-ORDERS!? Bujurururu! YOU-WERE-FOOLED!"

Squall: (Fooled!?) "I...don't understand."

NORG: "Fushurururu...EXPLAIN-TO-THEM."

Garden Faculty: "Master NORG has known about the alliance between the President of Galbadia and the sorceress. He heard it from the Galbad ia Garden master himself."

Squall: "The Galbadia Garden master...?"

NORG: "Fushururu...THE-MASTER-OF-GALBADIA-GARDEN-IS-A-SUBORDINATE-OF- MINE-NAMED-MARTINE."

Garden Faculty 2: "Yes. In fact the sorceress and Garden are closely connected. That is why the sorceress will definitely try to gain hold of all Gardens."

Garden Faculty: "So, Master NORG sent an official order to Galbadia Garden. It was to kill the sorceress. An assassination was thought to be he best means. But..."

NORG: "Bujurururu! THAT-SLY-WEASEL-MARTINE-USED-YOU-AS-A-LAST-RESORT-FOR-THE- ASSASSINATION. HE-GAVE-THAT-ORDER-TO-PLACE-THE-BLAME-ON-ME! THAT-THAT-BASTARD."

Squall: "Are you saying that Balamb Garden had nothing to do with that order?"

Garden Faculty: "You just happened to show up just before the mission was to be carried out. They used you."


So to me it looks like NORG wanted to place the blame on Martien in case it went south but Martine punted the guilt ball back to Balamb.




Also I think FFXIII is awful. It's just that it's urine when compared to the mountain of fecal matter that is FFVIII.

[Ayen]

Of course it sucked. They put the Sorceress in a cage tipping her off that something was amiss. Didn't matter who was the sniper on the mission. Her magic still would've stopped the bloody bullet.

[Wolf Kanno]

You forget that Squall actually convinces Irvine to shoot. Which is a pretty good character growing moment for him, as well as all the times he spends later trying to play match maker for Squall and Rinoa while also trying to woo the oblivious Selphie. There is quite a bit going for Irvine. He may have confidence issues but it stands he was Galbadia's best sniper and it also stands that he did shoot in the end. Bullets just don't work as well on mind-controlled time witches is all. So he does get his arc, he starts to choke and Squall tells him to suck it up and just do it. Afterwards he spends his time either playing the party pacifist with Rinoa, setting Rinoa up with Squall, trying to get with Selphie, or chasing anything without a Y chromosome. He's not one-dimensional as he's a flirt, a pacifist, a good friend, and pretty funny along with his inability to pull the trigger when the going gets tough (even though he did). I mean Galbadai knew he might screw up, which is why they chose to hire Squall's unit for the possibility he did fail. So it's not like there is a major plot hole here, maybe a very contrived plot to get the party to meet the eccentric sharpshooter but again, it's not like Square hasn't resorted to even sillier things in the past...

I will agree the game dropped the ball with Rinoa's daddy issues but it's not like Square has never dropped a plot thread before in their games. Freya, Barret, Faris, Kain, Leon, Siegfried, Lone Wolf the Pickpocket, and Basch never see the proper resolution they were due in their games either, and frankly the plot is such an overused concept for heroines that I'm grateful it was dropped. If memory serves me correct, you do get a bit of resolution if you bring her to his mansion later on but it's been years since I've played that I could just be imagining things. Ultimately, I never said VIII had great writing, I'm just saying it's better than XIII's, which isn't difficult to argue.

As for Seifer, it's a matter of things changing from early development to full on development. Nomura intended for Squall, Seifer, and Rinoa to have some central love triangle dynamic going on but obviously Nojima and Kitase changed their minds when actual development started. Seifer is certainly an underused resource in VIII, but at least he does feel relevant to the plot as opposed to EVERY SINGLE SIDE CHARACTER IN XIII. Jihl and Cid wished they got the amount of screen time and plot development as Seifer did. He's an underutilized aspect but I would argue he pretty much completes his arc. He wants to follow his romantic dream of being a knight and basically gets his wish along with several chances to thrash his rival Squall. What else was there suppose to be for him? Even the supposed "romance" angle is jossed as quickly as it is revealed.

The characters do get exploration but it's not like they had some major story arc to be resolved. Zell gets lots of screentime to show he's hot-headed, dislikes Seifer, loves his grandfather and ma, and even gets to hook up with a library girl and save his hometown. Nowhere is there some deep-seated story arc for him to resolve. He's not avenging his home, tracking down his lover's killer, or coming to terms with his inadequacy (though he does get some of that during the Assassinate the Sorceress mission) so he's not really screwed out of some unfinished story arc. Again, I feel like the issue at hand is that you were told you were getting fruit and you expected apples and got oranges, and while I can say it's perfectly valid to argue you like apples better than oranges, you can't really argue that oranges are not fruit because they are not like apples. The characters get enough screentime in the beginning to establish who they are and what they are to Squall, but the main driving force of character development is Squall's journey which the other characters (now established with their own quirks) are used to help drive his development. You can't expect them to all have some private personal journey all the time, it just wasn't that kind of story. It's basically the same issues with FFXII which chose to be plot driven rather than character driven.