WRPG/JRPG Hybrids

[Wolf Kanno]

I've been wanting to ask this for a while and I guess this is the thread to do it: why do people say the Souls games are Western-style RPGs?

I honestly can't think of a single WRPG like them, except for Lord of the Fallen, a 2014 game specifically designed to be a Souls-like. To me their closest analogue was the Quest mode in games like Ehrgeiz and Tobal. And FROM has stated many times it's the spiritual successor to King's Field, which didn't have any Western games like it at the time. Most people also seem to recognize Ghosts & Goblins as oldest analogue - a Japanese medieval fantasy game centered around map memorization and attack timing.

I guess it's the macabre sword & sorcery setting but I really don't know when that was ever the exclusive domain of WRPGs.

Stylistically, King's Field (Souls and Bloodbourne's predecessor series) has far more in common with old school WRPG PC titles like Dungeon Master, Lands of Lore, and Ultima Underworld than it does with the Action-RPGs commonly associated with Japan's market. I think that is where many people get the impression. The only JRPG series it has anything in common with that I'm aware or (barring some obscure game I'm obviously ignorant of that someone like ShinGundam would know) is actually old school MegaTen which was light on plot, heavy on dungeon explorations and both series have an obsession with dark and foreboding world's where things like "happiness" and "hope" are lies parents tell their children at night so they don't give completely into despair.

So yeah, gameplay and style-wise, From Software's RPG franchise really traces it's roots back to old Western PC RPGs than Japanese ones. The fact the series lacks the narrative and gameplay functions of your typical JRPG doesn't help it to shake off that distinction. Frankly, I don't understand why people even bother with the semantics of it all. It's a fun series, so does it matter if we should define it by it's root's or it's heritage?

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In terms of the question, I'm not sure if it can really be done because I feel the biggest distinction from the two styles is a narrative one and simply choosing one over the other would kind of invalidate the whole... hybrid thing. Games like FFXII, Xenoblade Chronicles, and even the Elder Scrolls series, to me at least, are borrowing heavily from MMORPG's which tend to be games that focus on exploring large places and doing inane fetch quests to pass the time between monthly payments. I'm not really sure how I would go about making a "hybrid" as I just don't think it's possible.

[Bolivar]

Stylistically, King's Field (Souls and Bloodbourne's predecessor series) has far more in common with old school WRPG PC titles like Dungeon Master, Lands of Lore, and Ultima Underworld than it does with the Action-RPGs commonly associated with Japan's market. I think that is where many people get the impression. The only JRPG series it has anything in common with that I'm aware or (barring some obscure game I'm obviously ignorant of that someone like ShinGundam would know) is actually old school MegaTen which was light on plot, heavy on dungeon explorations and both series have an obsession with dark and foreboding world's where things like "happiness" and "hope" are lies parents tell their children at night so they don't give completely into despair.

So yeah, gameplay and style-wise, From Software's RPG franchise really traces it's roots back to old Western PC RPGs than Japanese ones. The fact the series lacks the narrative and gameplay functions of your typical JRPG doesn't help it to shake off that distinction. Frankly, I don't understand why people even bother with the semantics of it all. It's a fun series, so does it matter if we should define it by it's root's or it's heritage?

That's like saying Dragon Quest clones are really Western-style RPGs because DQ was based on Wizardry and Ultima.

I guess I've just played too many Japanese first person dungeon crawlers and low fantasy medieval JRPGs to understand how any of that could be in the exclusive domain of the West. Most of all, I've yet to hear someone actually point out a Western game that looks like and preceded Demon's Souls. There's just so many obvious Japanese influences (not sure if you read mine) that the absence of any poignant Western counter-examples is deafening. The thing that really makes me do a double take is when people make Child of Light comparisons and claim it was intentionally designed to mimic Western games - especially when so many Western games and RPGs now vocally cite the Souls series as an influence. I'm not sure if anyone has read a Miyazaki interview about this but I would be incredibly surprised if he put any Western influences before the Japanese ones.

Have you played Ehrgeiz or Tobal's quest mode?

[Wolf Kanno]

Please don't remind me of Tobal...

I did read your post and that's why I answered like that as some of those games I listed had sequels released maybe a year before the original King's Field so I doubt they didn't influence it in some way. Dark Souls is just an extention of that and frankly if the best JRPG comparison was a lite-JRPG side quest from two fighting games made by an RPG company, I don't really feel that is the same as saying it's influenced by real JRPGs unless there was a series you mentioned I missed. Honestly the Souls franchise is kind of just it's own thing, but I find it hard to rank it with JRPGs which tend to focus more on character and story to the detriment of everything else. Of course, I'm in the minority in saying the series is more of an Action game with an RPG system attached to it, since I feel like the core combat mechanics and a player's skill using them is far more essential than your stats, but I know I'm the only one who feels that way.

As for DQ... well honestly I feel the franchise dips back and forth between games to be honest. DQVIII is definitely a JRPG but I would probably agree that DQ1 is not. I genuinely feel that Phantasy Star was the first true JRPG in terms of being the first game to have all the elements commonly associated with how we define the genre today. Then again, I feel most of the RPGs released back then, with a few exceptions from the rules, are simply defined as RPG, and the W and J part really doesn't come to play until the 90s; when the advent of the 16-bit console generation and advances in PC gaming made the genre distinctly split. Frankly the term RPG is such a catch all term and it's few core elements have been lifted by every other genre, it's hard to really say where to draw the line on what is and isn't a RPG. Still, it's all semantics and it's not like the world is going to come to an end if a game is listed as being part of one sub-genre over another. Gaming is like the music industry, who cares what genre it is, it only matters if you like it or not.

[Vyk]

I'm in the minority in saying the series is more of an Action game with an RPG system attached to it, since I feel like the core combat mechanics and a player's skill using them is far more essential than your stats, but I know I'm the only one who feels that way.

You're not wrong, though. At least once we get to Bloodborne. I mean it's just as obvious to me in the Souls games, but I honestly never heard of anyone beating Souls at level 4. But the idea is still sound. I just think it would have been far more annoying, as the weapon upgrade system isn't quite as extensive to completely make up for level gain. But I have no doubt it would be possible. Just probably a lot more risky, tedious, and likely annoying. But combat is definitely the focus, and then risky repetitive exploration, and lore, and then maybe character building far behind everything else. Considering most characters can be played the same way. Die repeatedly until you notice the pattern. Lie in wait, dodge an attack, counter-attack when the opportunity arises, and get the hell out of dodge and wait for the next opportunity

Honestly, breaking it down in my head like that, I can't think of any Eastern or Western comparisons outside of maybe... Bushido Blade, with the patient and deadly combat focus

It's certainly an interesting case to break down and discuss, regardless

[Bolivar]

That's always been the rhythm of Ghosts and Goblins for me and I guess that's why I've never been able to look at the Souls games as anything but a celebration of extremely Japanese sensibilities.

[Wolf Kanno]

That's always been the rhythm of Ghosts and Goblins for me and I guess that's why I've never been able to look at the Souls games as anything but a celebration of extremely Japanese sensibilities.

Maybe that is what the Souls series is. It's not an RPG, it's a 3D remake of Ghosts and Goblins with an RPG system tacked on. Makes sense to me.

[Vyk]

I've always accused those games of being "NES hard". Where it's about the fact that you're supposed to die, retry, memorize, repeat. They definitely have a lot in common with the original Ninja Gaiden and Castelvania games

In fact there's been a few arguments on the internet (and even here, I believe) that Souls and Bloodborne fill a gap left by the lack of any decent Castlevania games recently. Where you might say Bloodborne is a 3D less forgiving Symphony of the Night or something

I guess they fill a lot of niches for people. WRPG, JRPG, Metroidvania, NES difficulty factor, beautiful and depressing

[Laddy]

Dark Souls is like a blend of Legend of Grimrock and Gothic, tbh. Sharing traits of both.