Fei Fong Wong vs Cloud Strife

[Lawr]

Both are nowhere near my top ten favorites but Fei definitely needs to get all, like all, of the votes here. It's been a while since I played FFVII but if I remember correctly isn't he pretending to be Zack for 80% of the game? And then all of a sudden, bam! It's time to kill Sephiroth you guys!!!

[Ayen]

I didn't feel Fei's personality shine through the game at all. Something about the writing and localization made all the characters pretty aloof to me. He's also too much of a superman cop out. I can't really sympathize with him outside of looking for his lost love through the ages.

FFVII's story is much more cohesive and "finished," so I get a better handle on who Cloud was and how his story played out. The mini dialogue choices littered throughout the story strengthened my personal connection with him. I also liked how he often conflicted with his party members, whereas in Xenogears it just felt like everyone was more or less along for the ride, further diminishing how little of the characters' personalities actually came out. Cloud's vulnerability also makes him much more interesting than the all-powerful Fei. A recurring question is whether or not Cloud is really capable for the task ahead, which makes it all the more awesome that he originally bested Sephiroth by virtue of his own will, before the Jenova experiments on him took place.

No poll?

I was going to vote for Fei, but then I read this and now I'm indecisive.

[Wolf Kanno]

I didn't feel Fei's personality shine through the game at all. Something about the writing and localization made all the characters pretty aloof to me. He's also too much of a superman cop out. I can't really sympathize with him outside of looking for his lost love through the ages.

FFVII's story is much more cohesive and "finished," so I get a better handle on who Cloud was and how his story played out. The mini dialogue choices littered throughout the story strengthened my personal connection with him. I also liked how he often conflicted with his party members, whereas in Xenogears it just felt like everyone was more or less along for the ride, further diminishing how little of the characters' personalities actually came out. Cloud's vulnerability also makes him much more interesting than the all-powerful Fei. A recurring question is whether or not Cloud is really capable for the task ahead, which makes it all the more awesome that he originally bested Sephiroth by virtue of his own will, before the Jenova experiments on him took place.

No poll?

I was going to vote for Fei, but then I read this and now I'm indecisive.

Probably because Fei isn't really "all-powerful" or at least the player is unaware of his strength until the end of the first disc. The only reason the cast follows Fei's lead is because they always need him to use his power to help them and for a good chunk of the beginning, Fei is absolutely reluctant to use it after what happened to him. As opposed to Cloud who becomes de facto leader after leaving Midgard and no one questions him much even when it becomes obvious he's a liability to their mission. The party let's Cloud stay along even after he gave the Black Materia away, Fei starts to lose control of his power and his own teammates vote to have him carbonite freeze to save humanity.

Fei begins his life journey as a reluctant hero. He has the power to stop the evil forces but lacks the resolve and is hindered by fearing his own abilities (typical Amuro Syndrome). Every time, Fei begins to open up to being a savior, it always ends catastrophically for him. Despite all that, he eventually realizes that no matter where he will go, the forces that be will not let him have peace and by the end, Fei finally accepts his "savior" role. His past lives show that he has always struggled to be humanity's savior and has failed every time though each time his life has a profound effect on humanity.

Cloud's dark side is reflected by a genetic engineered super soldier using alien cells to smurf with his head. Fei's dark side is his true self, both the side of him that is his angry life hating rage, and his apathetic good side that would rather watch the few happy memories he had over and over while the world burns than lift a finger and end Fei's problems. It says something when the false personality is the better person than the real ones. I find that Fei is far more relatable than someone who simply pretends to be someone else because alien genes and Ho Yah badguy are messing with his head than someone who was traumatized as a child and now dealing with the coping mechanisms he created while every body in the world is trying to force him to deal with the things that screwed up his head in the first place. Fei isn't a puppet like Cloud was, Fei is his own worst enemy and watching him overcome it slowly as the story unfolds is one of the highlights of Xenogears story. Cloud was designed to be likable in a rougish sort of way, but Fei will make you go through the full spectrum of hating him, liking him, feeling sorry for him, being angry at him, and eventually content that he finally finds peace in the end. I don't know many protagonists that can make you feel almost the full spectrum of emotion like Fei does.

[Ayen]

Fei it is.

[Forsaken Lover]

I observed in my other thread that Cloud reminds me a lot of Fei and I still stand by that. Cloud has more in common with Fei than he does any of his fellow FF main protagonists. This would probably be because Xenogears started life as Final Fantasy VII.

Who do I prefer? Fei Fong Wong, obviously. Xenogears is my favorite JRPG ever. But Cloud is still good. I feel Wolf is simplifying things to a horrible extent. It wasn't just MAH ALIEN JEANS that made Cloud lose himself. It was a truckload of trauma, both physical and mental. He saw his home destroyed by his hero, he spent the next several years being tortured by Hojo and finally his friend went and got dead. On top of all of this, that poor, awkward, dorky kid who set off to be a hero utterly failed at it. He wanted only to achieve recognition so that the cute girl in his hometown would love him. Yet he couldn't make the grade and he was so ashamed of this fact that he went to great lengths to deny it.

Cloud's personality in FFVII is not just Zack and it's not just because of Jenova. It's a cobblled together mask he assumed in order to not only fix his mind, but also to live the "ideal" he always strove for. Now he could be that Super Badass he always longed to be, as opposed to a Shinra Grunt who let his hometown be destroyed.

Quite frankly, the Inside of Cloud's Mind part feels like something straight out of Xenogears, as does stuff like the "Real Cloud" appearing when Sephiroth makes Cloud give him the Black Materia. "Don't be afraid!" Don't deny reality. Don't live in your own little dreamworld and try to shut out reality. Sounds like Id and The Coward to me.

Cloud is the best FF has to offer. It's not his fault that Final Fantasy's best just falls woefully short of Xenogears'.

[Wolf Kanno]

I observed in my other thread that Cloud reminds me a lot of Fei and I still stand by that. Cloud has more in common with Fei than he does any of his fellow FF main protagonists. This would probably be because Xenogears started life as Final Fantasy VII.

I disagree with this statement. Childhood home destroyed by the forces you work for, years lost by being a test subject, struggling for most of the game to come to terms with ones identity? I could easily be talking about Cloud or Terra Bradford.

Badass warrior judged by others for his past profession? Decides to redeem himself after witnessing first hand the atrocities of the organization he worked for making him decide to fight back against the people he used to call ally? Betrayed by the one person he looked up to, and spending a good portion of the game, once again, seeking to come to terms with who he really is and whether he should let his past be the total judgement of who he is? Again, I could be talking about Mr. Strife, but that description fits Cecil Harvey just as well. Cecil's brother even has the whole alien genes allow me to control you angle that Sephiroth used on Cloud.

Cloud is like most FF heroes, an almagation of what came before, not some unique avatar that Nomura and Nojima dreamed up in 97. Nomura has even said he used FFIV as a lot of the basis for FFVII and it really shows in the details of the character dynamics.

Cloud does have trauma but it's not really the trauma that directs him. I mean Sephiroth uses the twisted memories of Nibelheim's destruction to coerce Cloud into thinking that following him was out of revenge but Cloud was already running away from who he was long before the mission, as is revealed in the entire Dream world sequence. Cloud never wanted to be who he was and this made it easier for the Jenova cells to twist him into who he wanted to be. It's not trauma, it's just his inability to live with the idea he is a failure to his own ideals that screws him up. Fei's issues are honest to god trauma, Cloud's is more self-inflicted which frankly makes him close to Cecil and Terra in my book as both also deal with trying to have their lives measure up to some personal sense of honor/good and normalcy that creates their problem and in all three cases the characters moment of triumph is finally realizing that their ideal is not the same as reality and that they have been living their ideal all along, even if wasn't to their earlier unrealistic expectations.

Not that Fei is unique either. He is also an amalgam of heroes who came before him but outside both characters spending time in their heads to sort out their issues, I don't feel the connection is quite as strong. I would probably say the connection really comes from both games owing a lot of it's narrative properties and themes to Neon Genesis Evangelion but I also feel it's obvious which one took those elements more seriously and which one just cherry picked a few concepts and went on it's way.

[Forsaken Lover]

Badass warrior judged by others for his past profession? Decides to redeem himself after witnessing first hand the atrocities of the organization he worked for making him decide to fight back against the people he used to call ally? Betrayed by the one person he looked up to, and spending a good portion of the game, once again, seeking to come to terms with who he really is and whether he should let his past be the total judgement of who he is? Again, I could be talking about Mr. Strife, but that description fits Cecil Harvey just as well. Cecil's brother even has the whole alien genes allow me to control you angle that Sephiroth used on Cloud.

Cecil gets over his problems when he becomes a Paladin at Mt. Ordeals, which is, what, 15% into the game? It's at most a very shallow, underdeveloped version of what Cloud went through because Cloud's character development takes roughly the whole game,as opposed to a fraction of it.

Then there is also the fact you are simplifying things again. The tone of what Cloud and Cecil go through is not even remotely similar. Cecil's problems are linked to being a soldier for an evil army, and conflicting ideas of loyalty and morality. There's nothing like that AT ALL in Cloud's character progression.

Cloud does have trauma but it's not really the trauma that directs him. I mean Sephiroth uses the twisted memories of Nibelheim's destruction to coerce Cloud into thinking that following him was out of revenge but Cloud was already running away from who he was long before the mission, as is revealed in the entire Dream world sequence. Cloud never wanted to be who he was and this made it easier for the Jenova cells to twist him into who he wanted to be. It's not trauma, it's just his inability to live with the idea he is a failure to his own ideals that screws him up. Fei's issues are honest to god trauma, Cloud's is more self-inflicted which frankly makes him close to Cecil and Terra in my book as both also deal with trying to have their lives measure up to some personal sense of honor/good and normalcy that creates their problem and in all three cases the characters moment of triumph is finally realizing that their ideal is not the same as reality and that they have been living their ideal all along, even if wasn't to their earlier unrealistic expectations.

Now you're being ridiculous here. We saw the pitiful state Cloud was left in after being experimented on for years. He couldn't speak, he couldn't move on his own, he was barely alive. Years of being the subject of Hojo's mad tests will do that to a guy I imagine. I would definitely count that as trauma.

And then on top of all that the guy who was saving him went and got murdered right before his eyes.

You see it very clearly when Cloud first meets Tifa again in the train station. He's still a horrible wreck but there are those little "electric flashes" which represent how the Jenova Cells are scotchtaping his mind back together.

As I said, it's a combination of both personal failings and trauma.

[Wolf Kanno]

Badass warrior judged by others for his past profession? Decides to redeem himself after witnessing first hand the atrocities of the organization he worked for making him decide to fight back against the people he used to call ally? Betrayed by the one person he looked up to, and spending a good portion of the game, once again, seeking to come to terms with who he really is and whether he should let his past be the total judgement of who he is? Again, I could be talking about Mr. Strife, but that description fits Cecil Harvey just as well. Cecil's brother even has the whole alien genes allow me to control you angle that Sephiroth used on Cloud.

Cecil gets over his problems when he becomes a Paladin at Mt. Ordeals, which is, what, 15% into the game? It's at most a very shallow, underdeveloped version of what Cloud went through because Cloud's character development takes roughly the whole game,as opposed to a fraction of it.

Cloud doesn't even really confront his past until Disc 2, he has no real development except for vague hints from Tifa and Aerith throughout Disc 1, which many can be missed if you don't use either of them. He doesn't confront his past until he actually meets Sephiroth, disappears, find him a zombie version of him, and then finally goes into his big past dump which largely shows many of the games plot holes about his relationship with Tifa. Really, the game spends maybe an hour on Cloud's actual past. Granted Fei gets a two hour story dump (with save points!) but at least the game was far more consistent about exploring the mystery of who he was beyond a few vague mental dialogues and Aerith and Tifa occasionally dropping a hint about Zack. Hell, most of Cloud's character exploration winds up being a red herring for the true reveal whereas Fei's actually all adds up.

Then there is also the fact you are simplifying things again. The tone of what Cloud and Cecil go through is not even remotely similar. Cecil's problems are linked to being a soldier for an evil army, and conflicting ideas of loyalty and morality. There's nothing like that AT ALL in Cloud's character progression.

Wrong, Cloud spends a good chunk of the Midgard section and the Kalm flashback justifying why he, as a 1st Class Soldier and former Shin-Ra employee is working for AVALANCHE, just as Cecil has to explain to every single character he meets, including up to the Trial at Mt. Ordeals, why he is turning against his home kingdom despite being an "evil" dark knight. Hell it takes them both roughly 10 hours of game time to get people to stop bothering both them about it. The difference here is that VII is a longer game so Cloud's version is like a 1/5th of the game's plot whereas Cecil's is a good third of his game. The other difference is that Cecil is abit more self-righteous and heroic about his reasoning whereas Cloud is more bitter and aloof about the whole ordeal.

Cloud does have trauma but it's not really the trauma that directs him. I mean Sephiroth uses the twisted memories of Nibelheim's destruction to coerce Cloud into thinking that following him was out of revenge but Cloud was already running away from who he was long before the mission, as is revealed in the entire Dream world sequence. Cloud never wanted to be who he was and this made it easier for the Jenova cells to twist him into who he wanted to be. It's not trauma, it's just his inability to live with the idea he is a failure to his own ideals that screws him up. Fei's issues are honest to god trauma, Cloud's is more self-inflicted which frankly makes him close to Cecil and Terra in my book as both also deal with trying to have their lives measure up to some personal sense of honor/good and normalcy that creates their problem and in all three cases the characters moment of triumph is finally realizing that their ideal is not the same as reality and that they have been living their ideal all along, even if wasn't to their earlier unrealistic expectations.

Now you're being ridiculous here. We saw the pitiful state Cloud was left in after being experimented on for years. He couldn't speak, he couldn't move on his own, he was barely alive. Years of being the subject of Hojo's mad tests will do that to a guy I imagine. I would definitely count that as trauma.

And then on top of all that the guy who was saving him went and got murdered right before his eyes.

You see it very clearly when Cloud first meets Tifa again in the train station. He's still a horrible wreck but there are those little "electric flashes" which represent how the Jenova Cells are scotchtaping his mind back together.

As I said, it's a combination of both personal failings and trauma.

Except Cloud isn't suffering from the memory of being experimented on, the game and the Ultimania's all explain that the process for creating SOLDERS and Sephiroth Clones is the same process. One allows a strong willed person to become more powerful and the ability to use magic more effectively, the other leaves you in a catatonic state that Jenova/Sephiroth can manipulate. Cloud just happen to not measure up until he got over himself. Hell the Compilation Ultimania's imply he only got better because Sephiroth wanted him to, so he could personally screw with him to get back at him at Nibelheim. Cloud's whole memory of the time frame in those five years is largely swiss-cheese so it's not the same as Id recounting the horrible experiments Miang and Grahf put him through, or the Coward's memories of the all the times Fei died in his past lives, or relieving those painful memories. We the player get to see that trout, whereas Cloud is one moment knocking Sephiroth into a Mako reactor and then waking up, being dragged away by Zack, while he tries desperately not to drool all over himself. Hell even Zack wasn't conscious for the Hojo experiments as Crisis Core showed us, so I don't feel it counts as part of his trauma. He's not even aware of what really went down until the Cloud Dream sequence and he bounces back pretty well considering what he went through. Yes, Cloud witnessed Zack's death but in the original game, he barely acknowledges it and it's only in the retcon CC version does he ball his little traumatized eyes out. To me it's just not the same deal. Cloud is at best Fei-lite and even then his trauma isn't any worse than Terra Bradford from the previous game.