Midgar Fans

[Forsaken Lover]

It seems to me a lot of people over the years have come to think of Midgar as the best part of FFVII. From what I have read and gathered from these individuals, they felt Midgar was the most unique part of FFVII and establishes its identity. Once you travel into the world map, things kinda became more "stereotypical Final Fantasy." I know a lot of people especially have problems with the quaint, tranquil Kalm right outside the hellish cyberpunk dystopia Midgar. Or is it steampunk? Whichever.

Thoughts?

[Sephiroth]

Good god, no. I don't think so.

[Mr. Carnelian]

I know a lot of people especially have problems with the quaint, tranquil Kalm right outside the hellish cyberpunk dystopia Midgar. Or is it steampunk? Whichever.

Thoughts?

Steampunk. Cyberpunk tends to involve virtual realities and such like.

Whilst I've never played VII, I have no problem with juxtaposition. Contrasting the supposed darkness of urban living with the imagined tranquility of rural life is a well-established literary trope, used to comment on the human condition.

[Wolf Kanno]

The biggest issue is that Midgard created some really interesting themes and unique situations that elevate the plot from previous games in the genre but after you leave Midgard they are largely dropped for a simple "stop the bad guy from getting the doomsday McGuffin". The party's reasoning for going along with it is shaky as best, especially since Shin-Ra proves to be the more compelling antagonist for most of Disc 1; whereas Sephiroth just kind of steals the spotlight from them without really contributing much until Disc 2. The themes get minor call backs towards the end but they are pretty shallow with what was originally presented. It doesn't help that Midgard gave a very unique experience whereas the rest of VII's locations feel like typical RPG fare so the further you get from it, the more VII begins to feel like a typical RPG.

[Formalhaut]

Some of the reasons for your companions joining you do get very shaky at times.

[Psychotic]

Steampunk. Cyberpunk tends to involve virtual realities and such like.

There is absolutely nothing steampunk about Midgar - for one, everything is powered by mako and not steam! Also Cyberpunk isn't necessarily about virtual reality. I would definitely say its hi-tech mixed with poor living conditions and overseen by a totalitarian corporation makes it more Cyberpunk than anything else.

Some of the reasons for your companions joining you do get very shaky at times.

They all have one common shared characteristic: They've all lost something to the Shinra. Admittedly the reason Cait Sith gives (I want to see how this fortune turns out!) is shaky but as we all know that was meant to be bulltrout.

Also, no. Midgar is a superb piece of atmospheric scene setting and story telling. Leaving it, though, leaving it is freedom. In so many ways, you are free. There is more to life than the constant grind and mess and sprawl that is Midgar. As Cloud said, the people of Midgar are like the train, their life cannot leave the tracks that they are on. But you do, and it's great.

[Shorty]

If we are getting technical about terms, I believe I have heard Midgar correctly referenced as dieselpunk.

The city of Midgar stood like a titan around, above, and below Cloud Strife and his companions. Suspended upon enormous pillars and literally teeming with dilapidated piping, twisting corridors, and rising smoke, Midgar seems at once alive and alien – one of the first play experiences a gamer encounters, setting the tone for the entirety of the adventure. The importance of technology, here bordering on pervasiveness, is a theme dieselpunk would become well known for. This is accentuated by the often run-down, impoverished nature of Midgar itself, a place where even the sky remains a primarily dark space (a technique used quite effectively in the film Dark City, which was discussed beautifully by Seraphimish here).

The Shinra corporation, de-facto ruler of the world from all evidence, helps to add a distinctive ‘wartime’ feel to the game, including waves of faceless soldiers in ominous armor, an agenda which includes leveraging the planet’s vast resources in order to attain its goals (as seen by the existence of numerous ‘Mako’ reactors – power-plants constructed to draw the energy from the planet) so that Shinra may continue to power its cities and weapons. Here again, the thematic similarities to eventual dieselpunk notions of a great war (i.e. WWII) and the war effort are strong.

https://flyingfortress.wordpress.com...r-made-almost/

Midgar is fantastic to me in the same way that Gotham is fantastic. The citizens living in the slums and sectors are all struggling to survive, yet something ties them all together. It's a dark city with its own living identity and characteristics.

[Slothy]

The biggest issue is that Midgard created some really interesting themes and unique situations that elevate the plot from previous games in the genre but after you leave Midgard they are largely dropped for a simple "stop the bad guy from getting the doomsday McGuffin". The party's reasoning for going along with it is shaky as best, especially since Shin-Ra proves to be the more compelling antagonist for most of Disc 1; whereas Sephiroth just kind of steals the spotlight from them without really contributing much until Disc 2. The themes get minor call backs towards the end but they are pretty shallow with what was originally presented. It doesn't help that Midgard gave a very unique experience whereas the rest of VII's locations feel like typical RPG fare so the further you get from it, the more VII begins to feel like a typical RPG.

Couldn't agree more. Not only was Midgar completely different than anything we'd really seen in other RPG's and the themes raised while you're there compelling though, I also find it far more interesting because a ton of questions are raised while you're there, and none of the pay offs are all that interesting to be honest. It's like the first season of Lost. Utterly spectacular, but nothing that happens after ever lives up to the standard it set. Although there are a few great parts here and there after Midgar. None of them have to do with Sephiroth or Aeris dying though really.

[Psychotic]

If we are getting technical about terms, I believe I have heard Midgar correctly referenced as dieselpunk.

The city of Midgar stood like a titan around, above, and below Cloud Strife and his companions. Suspended upon enormous pillars and literally teeming with dilapidated piping, twisting corridors, and rising smoke, Midgar seems at once alive and alien – one of the first play experiences a gamer encounters, setting the tone for the entirety of the adventure. The importance of technology, here bordering on pervasiveness, is a theme dieselpunk would become well known for. This is accentuated by the often run-down, impoverished nature of Midgar itself, a place where even the sky remains a primarily dark space (a technique used quite effectively in the film Dark City, which was discussed beautifully by Seraphimish here).

The Shinra corporation, de-facto ruler of the world from all evidence, helps to add a distinctive ‘wartime’ feel to the game, including waves of faceless soldiers in ominous armor, an agenda which includes leveraging the planet’s vast resources in order to attain its goals (as seen by the existence of numerous ‘Mako’ reactors – power-plants constructed to draw the energy from the planet) so that Shinra may continue to power its cities and weapons. Here again, the thematic similarities to eventual dieselpunk notions of a great war (i.e. WWII) and the war effort are strong.

https://flyingfortress.wordpress.com...r-made-almost/

Ehhh, I don't think it's Dieselpunk. There's nothing art deco about FFVII's art style, and notions of a Great War and a war effort are completely wrong. There are perhaps a couple of references to a war (between the Shinra and Wutai) several years ago, but the Shinra army's presence in FFVII is nothing to do with that - it is more about the totalitarian oppression of the people of Midgar and Shinra's control. The only "war", if you can call it that, is a very modern conflict with AVALANCHE acting as terrorists and Shinra doing its best to tighten the noose and track down the terrorist cell through increased security, control and intelligence gathering.

It's been said on EoFF before and I think it's the best way to describe it: FFVII is Makopunk.

[Mirage]

I know a lot of people especially have problems with the quaint, tranquil Kalm right outside the hellish cyberpunk dystopia Midgar. Or is it steampunk? Whichever.

Thoughts?

Steampunk. Cyberpunk tends to involve virtual realities and such like.

Whilst I've never played VII, I have no problem with juxtaposition. Contrasting the supposed darkness of urban living with the imagined tranquility of rural life is a well-established literary trope, used to comment on the human condition.

Don't forget about dieselpunk!

oh someone mentioned that already

[Ayen]

The biggest issue is that Midgard created some really interesting themes and unique situations that elevate the plot from previous games in the genre but after you leave Midgard they are largely dropped for a simple "stop the bad guy from getting the doomsday McGuffin". The party's reasoning for going along with it is shaky as best, especially since Shin-Ra proves to be the more compelling antagonist for most of Disc 1; whereas Sephiroth just kind of steals the spotlight from them without really contributing much until Disc 2. The themes get minor call backs towards the end but they are pretty shallow with what was originally presented. It doesn't help that Midgard gave a very unique experience whereas the rest of VII's locations feel like typical RPG fare so the further you get from it, the more VII begins to feel like a typical RPG.

Agreed about Shinra. I always felt that Shinra should have been kept in the fold as the primary antagonist with Sephiroth taking on more of an antihero role since they're responsible for him going crazy in the first place.

[Wolf Kanno]

If we are getting technical about terms, I believe I have heard Midgar correctly referenced as dieselpunk.

The city of Midgar stood like a titan around, above, and below Cloud Strife and his companions. Suspended upon enormous pillars and literally teeming with dilapidated piping, twisting corridors, and rising smoke, Midgar seems at once alive and alien – one of the first play experiences a gamer encounters, setting the tone for the entirety of the adventure. The importance of technology, here bordering on pervasiveness, is a theme dieselpunk would become well known for. This is accentuated by the often run-down, impoverished nature of Midgar itself, a place where even the sky remains a primarily dark space (a technique used quite effectively in the film Dark City, which was discussed beautifully by Seraphimish here).

The Shinra corporation, de-facto ruler of the world from all evidence, helps to add a distinctive ‘wartime’ feel to the game, including waves of faceless soldiers in ominous armor, an agenda which includes leveraging the planet’s vast resources in order to attain its goals (as seen by the existence of numerous ‘Mako’ reactors – power-plants constructed to draw the energy from the planet) so that Shinra may continue to power its cities and weapons. Here again, the thematic similarities to eventual dieselpunk notions of a great war (i.e. WWII) and the war effort are strong.

https://flyingfortress.wordpress.com...r-made-almost/

Ehhh, I don't think it's Dieselpunk. There's nothing art deco about FFVII's art style, and notions of a Great War and a war effort are completely wrong. There are perhaps a couple of references to a war (between the Shinra and Wutai) several years ago, but the Shinra army's presence in FFVII is nothing to do with that - it is more about the totalitarian oppression of the people of Midgar and Shinra's control. The only "war", if you can call it that, is a very modern conflict with AVALANCHE acting as terrorists and Shinra doing its best to tighten the noose and track down the terrorist cell through increased security, control and intelligence gathering.

It's been said on EoFF before and I think it's the best way to describe it: FFVII is Makopunk.

I disagree and agree to a point. VII is definitely a mix between Diselpunk (the majority of the visual design) and cyberpunk (the themes of the game) but the war is actually a prominent background element in the plot, at least in the beginning. Once you get to Cosmo Canyon, it's largely dropped except for Cid making a reference to it when he's recruited and Wutai; but the War is mentioned a lot in Aerith and Sephiroth's back stories and it's explained how Shin-Ra even came to power as both a merchant of death and the war being so devastating that people easily chose to put their faith in Shin-Ra over standard governments. It's definitely a major background element but loses it's focus on the cyberpunk and standard RPG shenanigans.

VII is cyberpunk due to the genre focusing on how technology can create social upheaval and man trying to deal with a changing world. Barring Midgard, Junon, and the Gold Saucer; VII's aesthetics and sprites are distinguishable as looking like early 20th century rural America/Europe. Lots of overalls, cotton farm dresses, and driver hats. Hell, outside of Shin-Ra's military robots and the Gelinka, many of the game's vehicles look like something out of diselpunk design, including the Highwind which has a 20s to 40s aesthetic instead of VI and IX's steampunk and VIII and X's futuristic designs. It's why it is one of the more unique designs in the series.

[MJN SEIFER]

Also, no. Midgar is a superb piece of atmospheric scene setting and story telling. Leaving it, though, leaving it is freedom. In so many ways, you are free. There is more to life than the constant grind and mess and sprawl that is Midgar. As Cloud said, the people of Midgar are like the train, their life cannot leave the tracks that they are on. But you do, and it's great.

That's a good way of looking at it - there's little to no freedom in Midgar, and that feeling is in someway given to the player. I agree that there is a sense of freedom once you leave Midgar - there's so much more out there, and the fact that the way you travel changes once you leave Midgar adds to that.

To put in my view on Midgar, I liked it. There was a kind of atmosphere to it, and I liked the technical side to it (even when we were in the slums, there was the odd technical side to it) and I liked the look of the Shinra Building. I enjoyed the Sectors of Midgar as well, and the parts of the game visited them during, but I appreciate the freedom of having to leave.

Also, Final Fantasy VII was my first Final Fantasy, and my first RPG of this type, so I didn't know that The World Map was an integral part of these kind of games, so I didn't view Midgar as a departure from it.

One thing I would have kind of liked, was to have the chance to check out the Sectors we didn't see (I posted about this in the past), like when we came back, after getting the Key to Sector 5, to be able to see Sector 2, and Sector 3, as well as Sector 4 in full. Also Sector 1 in full if there's anything left of it.

[Psychotic]

I disagree and agree to a point. VII is definitely a mix between Diselpunk (the majority of the visual design) and cyberpunk (the themes of the game) but the war is actually a prominent background element in the plot, at least in the beginning. Once you get to Cosmo Canyon, it's largely dropped except for Cid making a reference to it when he's recruited and Wutai; but the War is mentioned a lot in Aerith and Sephiroth's back stories and it's explained how Shin-Ra even came to power as both a merchant of death and the war being so devastating that people easily chose to put their faith in Shin-Ra over standard governments. It's definitely a major background element but loses it's focus on the cyberpunk and standard RPG shenanigans.

Disagree entirely. The war is a minor nebulous concept that is occasionally used as a plot explanation. We don't even know who it was fought between until we visit Wutai, and we don't know any of the major battles or leaders, the causes or the outcome. I like that you yourself described it as being "mentioned" in Aerith and Sephiroth's back stories - exactly! Mentioned! The war is used as a minor plot device in Aerith's backstory to explain why Elmyra took her in - the focus of that piece was firmly Aerith's special abilities and Shinra's attempts to recruit her. As for Sephiroth, we have no idea what he did or saw in the war other than him being a hero. His backstory firmly focuses on the events of Nibelheim.

What is the effect of the war on the people of Midgar? Do we see propaganda posters and statues? Do we see injured veterans? Do we even see any widows besides Elmyra? Compare that to the AVALANCHE vs Shinra conflict, the one that is on everyone's lips. We know the reasons, the battles, the victims, how the people of Midgar feel about it and are affected by it - from irritance at their commute being interrupted to having their homes and lives destroyed. All people in Midgar want to talk about is the modern conflict (AVALANCHE vs Shinra), poverty and mako energy. And that last one brings me firmly onto my final rebuttal. Shinra's power doesn't come from the war. Shinra's power comes from, well, its power! That concept is repeatedly and wholeheartedly mentioned at every turn. The convenience, the impact on the planet, materia, mako eyes, mako poisoning, pollution, it all comes down to Mako. And that is how a major element is handled. Anything that gets less airtime than Johnny or Don Corneo is not a major element.

[Wolf Kanno]

Disagree entirely. The war is a minor nebulous concept that is occasionally used as a plot explanation. We don't even know who it was fought between until we visit Wutai, and we don't know any of the major battles or leaders, the causes or the outcome. I like that you yourself described it as being "mentioned" in Aerith and Sephiroth's back stories - exactly! Mentioned! The war is used as a minor plot device in Aerith's backstory to explain why Elmyra took her in - the focus of that piece was firmly Aerith's special abilities and Shinra's attempts to recruit her. As for Sephiroth, we have no idea what he did or saw in the war other than him being a hero. His backstory firmly focuses on the events of Nibelheim.

The war is still a prominent element in the story background. As I said, it explains how Shin-Ra became noticed, it explains part of why Shin-Ra came into power because the foolish nations fought each other so long that people put their trust into Shin-Ra and their SOLDIER units who helped end the war. The war is largely why Shin-Ra has good PR and gets away with half the trout in the game. It's how Shin-Ra has a standing army and no one really cares. It's not the main theme of the game, I agree, but it's still there and it still fills in a lot of information the game doesn't spend time addressing. It can be both dude, it doesn't have to be one or the other and frankly most of the game's cyberpunk elements are dropped once Midgard is over.

What is the effect of the war on the people of Midgar? Do we see propaganda posters and statues? Do we see injured veterans? Do we even see any widows besides Elmyra? Compare that to the AVALANCHE vs Shinra conflict, the one that is on everyone's lips. We know the reasons, the battles, the victims, how the people of Midgar feel about it and are affected by it - from irritance at their commute being interrupted to having their homes and lives destroyed. All people in Midgar want to talk about is the modern conflict (AVALANCHE vs Shinra), poverty and mako energy. And that last one brings me firmly onto my final rebuttal. Shinra's power doesn't come from the war. Shinra's power comes from, well, its power! That concept is repeatedly and wholeheartedly mentioned at every turn. The convenience, the impact on the planet, materia, mako eyes, mako poisoning, pollution, it all comes down to Mako. And that is how a major element is handled. Anything that gets less airtime than Johnny or Don Corneo is not a major element.

Except no one cares about the AVALANCHE vs Shin-Ra conflict once you leave Midgard, in fact AVALANCHE isn't mentioned by anyone but Barret, Cait Sith and the execution scenario in Disc 2. It's completely dropped for the "search for Sephiroth" arc meaning after the first 5-8 hours of a 60+ hour game, the conflict doesn't mean jack trout.

Mako is how Shin-Ra maintains control, it's not what brought them to power. Even the Ultimania mentions that the War is what put people's trusts in Shin-Ra and Sephiroth's exploits in the war made children want to grow up being him including Cloud. Shin-Ra has power because they ended the war and as the premier weapons development manufacture, they have all the best toys which is why they even have power. The fact they have a monopoly on the best source of energy on the planet just made people keep loving them. The war is over, but it's effects on the current scenario are still completely there whereas the eco-terrorism conflict is largely new. None of this is helped by SE muddling the timeline with the Compilation. I agree that everything that gets less focus than two minor characters is not worth talking about, the issue is that AVALANCHE and what they stand for is one of those things. It completely drops from the plot after Midgard and while Shin-Ra is still there causing mischief, Cloud has the party so convinced Sephiroth is the bigger threat that even Barret stops wanting to pick fights with them for most of the game.

The party is trying to save the Planet and the game maintains a bit of a Green Aesop throughout, but the issue of Shin-Ra causing it is dropped for just mankind and evil extraterrestrials becoming more of the focus and shuntering Shin-Ra into "bad guys who give the party things to do while chasing after real bad guy". Shin-Ra doesn't become a factor in the plot again until the party decided to stop them from trying to save the planet. The other problem is that environmental issues are not necessarily an element of cyberpunk, it deals with social change caused by technology but after Midgard, the only effect we see of Mako Plants is Zack's hometown. Even Corel Town is more about Shin-Ra just being an oppressive force than some environmental or social commentary element. The fact Shin-Ra uses that army they used to win the war to suppress people kind of shows how beyond the thinly veiled use of name changes, Shin-Ra largely acts like a typical evil empire seen in the genre. I mean they won the war and now the world is either complacent or apathetic to their rule. AVALANCHE itself changes from eco-terrorist to oppressed people rebelling against the current regime, hell there is not even a single member of the team who really cares about the planet. Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie seem more into for the fame than ideals and while they may have actually cared, it's not like any of them got enough screen time to show that since Don Corneo has more screen time than all of them. Barret and Tifa are out for revenge against Sephiroth and Cloud is ultimately the same way. The rest of the party is largely united by not liking Shin-Ra and what they've done to them as opposed to idealistic notion of saving the planet. No one cares about the planet until it actually gets put into real peril. The Aesop is kind of lost due to focusing on human failings and how people unite under a morally righteous cause for usually petty selfish reasons.