Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 63

Thread: Why is the gaming community so damn sexist?

  1. #46
     Master of the Fork Cid's Knight Freya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Yer pants
    Posts
    26,207
    Articles
    277
    Blog Entries
    34

    FFXIV Character

    Freya Meow (Sargatanas)

    Default

    As jinx said
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx View Post
    No. None of this is right.
    lol

  2. #47
    Famine Wolf Recognized Member Sephex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Solar System
    Posts
    12,267
    Articles
    2
    Blog Entries
    55

    Default

    But depending on circumstances, a sport can be played on grass or astroturf.

  3. #48
    The King's Shield The Summoner of Leviathan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Insomnia
    Posts
    7,730

    FFXIV Character

    Patroclus Menoetius (Sargatanas)

    Default

    I feel like some people here don't get the difference between a character having sex appeal and being objectified (sexually or not). A character can be hot and still be a rounded character. The problem is when a character is solely reduced to that. A sexy male protagonist who is given full agency via a via being the main character/player character isn't the same as a scantly clad female character who always needs to be rescued by a male and has little to no development. The problem isn't people being sexy. Heck, being sexy or sexual doesn't mean they are being objectified, at least not completely. It is how the character is treated in the narrative and the amount of agency and independence they are given.

    Also, the OP question is broad enough that it includes not only how women are represented in the medium but also treated in the community. There's studies that demonstrate how even when playing at the same ability and reading from scripted responses female voices will face more hate than males. Or let's not forget how many threats women more than men too. Or the fact that many female gamers have to often prove themselves as it were.

    The community itself is highly divisive. I mean look at the whole elite vs casual tension (just look at some previous posts). There are those who seek to one up every or be somehow better. Whether you like it or not casual Facebook games are video games. I mean you can not like them but doesn't change that. I mean Tetris is a video game and let's face it Candy Crush is not that different from it.

    If you want to get all subjective about this I think CoD and its clones as well as Sports genre are about on par with so called "casual games" because really they are just cash cows for the companies. Just one happens to be a lot prettier / better graphics. They're still video games but I don't really get them (co-op COD is fun with friends but only reason I ever tried any of them). But what I look for in a game is different than those who obviously enjoy those games.


  4. #49

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotic View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NeoCracker View Post
    I also want to throw in if you are looking at Japanese games, you need to look at their culture
    I don't agree with that. The onus should be on the creator to be sensitive to the audience's cultural values if they intend to release a product in that specific country, not the other way around. If the game stays in Japan, yes, fine. However, if a Japanese developer wants to release their product in the west then they should be sensitive to western views and attitudes.

    If they don't want to change or adapt to that, perhaps not wanting to compromise in their creative vision or wanting to provide an authentic cultural experience then they absolutely have the right to do so. They cannot then expect the audience to bend over backwards to accept clashes of culture and have to be prepared to accept challenges from that audience in relation to characters like Cindy and Quiet.
    The Idea I was getting at there was different cultures may have different preferences in some cases. Squall I used as an example because he was designed in a way to appeal to females, just like the women are designed to appeal to men.

    Stateside the more effeminate men aren't as oggled as they are in Japan. So when looking at how often characters are designed to appeal to men as compared to women, you have to take that into account when talking about games from that culture.

    And right, Free! was the anime.

  5. #50
    The King's Shield The Summoner of Leviathan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Insomnia
    Posts
    7,730

    FFXIV Character

    Patroclus Menoetius (Sargatanas)

    Default

    You're mistaking a tree for the forest. Sexism in video games is not about just the sex appeal of the characters. Squall isn't an example of sexism because he is modelled after the Japanese appeal to male androgyny. He is the protagonist of the game. He is given full agency and character growth. Also, I would wager that his looks have less to do with attracting females and more to do with the target audience, male, more reliably identifying with him since as the player you are him. Essentially he was a late 90s idealized Japanese teenager. What Japanese boy wouldn't want to be him?

    I am not saying it doesn't go both ways. Merely that it has happened more to women and they have faced much more violence and discrimination within the community. However, dismantling sexist attitudes towards women both in the community and medium will help also to dismantle the problematic portrayals of men.


  6. #51
    absolutely haram Recognized Member Madame Adequate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Kirkwall
    Posts
    23,357

    FFXIV Character

    Hiero Dule (Brynhildr)
    Contributions
    • Former Cid's Knight

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sephex View Post
    But depending on circumstances, a sport can be played on grass or astroturf.
    What about astroconcrete?

  7. #52
    Happiness Hurricane!! Pike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Clover Town Street
    Posts
    18,644
    Articles
    13

    FFXIV Character

    Althalor Lightpike (Excalibur)
    Contributions
    • Former Editor
    • Former Cid's Knight
    • Former Social Media Manager

    Default

    I'm really fortunate to have had a 99.9% positive experience with the gaming community in general, and I say this as someone who had a really popular gaming website at one point (not trying to say this to brag, just trying to point out that I have a lot of experience with the community.) Thousands and thousands of comments on my site, including anonymous ones, and I can think of exactly one that was negative.

    That said I definitely personally know women who have had horrific experiences and it makes me sad; I want everyone's experience to be positive. I just want everyone to be happy playing games and talking about them with other happy people

  8. #53

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan View Post
    You're mistaking a tree for the forest. Sexism in video games is not about just the sex appeal of the characters. Squall isn't an example of sexism because he is modelled after the Japanese appeal to male androgyny. He is the protagonist of the game. He is given full agency and character growth. Also, I would wager that his looks have less to do with attracting females and more to do with the target audience, male, more reliably identifying with him since as the player you are him. Essentially he was a late 90s idealized Japanese teenager. What Japanese boy wouldn't want to be him?

    I am not saying it doesn't go both ways. Merely that it has happened more to women and they have faced much more violence and discrimination within the community. However, dismantling sexist attitudes towards women both in the community and medium will help also to dismantle the problematic portrayals of men.
    I never said he is an example of sexism, I"m saying he's an example of throwing in things for the sake of fan service, a thing that happens commonly for both Genders. When looking at it through the lens of an American, however, you'd miss out on that entirely. That's why it's important to look at the culture.

    To expand, you'll see a lot more of the effeminate men in RPG's then other genres of video games. There's another thing to notice about RPG's then other genre's of Video games, and that is they have a higher ratio of Female gamers then other genres. If these male characters were to be made more effeminate just to appeal to the Japanese boys, would that higher rate of effeminate men be more present in more genres? It seems fairly clear it's thrown in as a bit of Fan Service for women.

    To respond to your previous post, "A sexy male protagonist who is given full agency via a via being the main character/player character isn't the same as a scantly clad female character who always needs to be rescued by a male and has little to no development."

    Outside of games with little to no focus on the story (The Original Legend of Zelda, most non-RPG mario games), I honestly don't know many games I could even apply this too. Final Fantasy IV onward about the only character I can think it could be applied to is Rosa from IV who doesn't get much development. Breath of Fire Series (having played all but IV) I can't think of a female this applies too, No way can you apply this to Zelda from either Ocarina of Time or Twilight Princess,
    Bayonetta doesn't even come close to this either. I can find way more examples of this not happening to women then I can find of it actually being the case.

  9. #54

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DMKA View Post
    It isn't. It's just filled with this crowd of newcomer knee-jerk social justice feminist retards (who are, ironically, the most sexist people on the planet) who call everything sexist.
    I recall a time not too long ago at a game studio I was working at. We had a character customisation thing in there where you could pick a face to play with. There were about 20 options to choose from. I said "Hey, we only have male faces. We should include some women". The response I was given (from multiple people in the studio) was twofold:

    1) "Women are too expensive to add".
    2) "We have more important things to be worried about".

    The point I'm making - just to make it abundantly clear - is that sexism is not only a problem within the community, but institutionalised in the industry itself. So the representation of women ends up being poor. So few efforts are made to attract more women to buy various games. Which creates a heavily lopsided male-heavy audience.
    Last edited by Fox; 10-29-2015 at 12:03 AM.

  10. #55
    Resident Critic Ayen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Kansas City, Kansas
    Posts
    13,361
    Articles
    12
    Blog Entries
    76

    Default

    That's almost as bad as the 'female models complications' excuse Ubisoft gave a few years back.

  11. #56

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayen View Post
    That's almost as bad as the 'female models complications' excuse Ubisoft gave a few years back.
    Oh it's as bad, definitely. Just much less public!

  12. #57
    The King's Shield The Summoner of Leviathan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Insomnia
    Posts
    7,730

    FFXIV Character

    Patroclus Menoetius (Sargatanas)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoCracker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan View Post
    You're mistaking a tree for the forest. Sexism in video games is not about just the sex appeal of the characters. Squall isn't an example of sexism because he is modelled after the Japanese appeal to male androgyny. He is the protagonist of the game. He is given full agency and character growth. Also, I would wager that his looks have less to do with attracting females and more to do with the target audience, male, more reliably identifying with him since as the player you are him. Essentially he was a late 90s idealized Japanese teenager. What Japanese boy wouldn't want to be him?

    I am not saying it doesn't go both ways. Merely that it has happened more to women and they have faced much more violence and discrimination within the community. However, dismantling sexist attitudes towards women both in the community and medium will help also to dismantle the problematic portrayals of men.
    I never said he is an example of sexism, I"m saying he's an example of throwing in things for the sake of fan service, a thing that happens commonly for both Genders. When looking at it through the lens of an American, however, you'd miss out on that entirely. That's why it's important to look at the culture.

    To expand, you'll see a lot more of the effeminate men in RPG's then other genres of video games. There's another thing to notice about RPG's then other genre's of Video games, and that is they have a higher ratio of Female gamers then other genres. If these male characters were to be made more effeminate just to appeal to the Japanese boys, would that higher rate of effeminate men be more present in more genres? It seems fairly clear it's thrown in as a bit of Fan Service for women.
    It wasn't said directly but it was addressing the issue of representation of women's bodies in video games which is highly problematic. You cannot claim that a naked male torso is the same as a naked and almost naked woman's. How both are received in both Western and Japanese audiences are vastly different. Culturally how we view a topless man is significantly different how we view a topless woman. Even if both are sexualized they are in very different ways (one is often deemed more obscene than the other). I am not discrediting different cultural values of beauty. I am arguing that how characters, regardless of beauty standards, but on basis of gender are treated in the medium.

    As an aside, even though Japanese standards of beauty and fashion obviously do vary from our Western sensibilities there is a strong historical tie between Japan and America in the post-WWII on a cultural and aesthetic level too (e.g. Disney and anime, impressionist movement, Japanese films in the 50s during the USA occupation).

    Also, you are misleading the statistics you are referring to. You are primarily talking about fanservice in jRPGs and how it is applied to both genders (and both audiences) but are quoting a 2014 statistic that refers to the WHOLE RPG genre. It is also important to note that most major Western RPG publishers offer games where you can choose the sex of the protagonist (though MMORPGS are still predominated by males). There is an obvious argument that modern RPGs of the last decade have seen a rise of female players not because of fanservice but because there are more options to identify with. Which brings me back to the point about Squall. Squall was highly unlikely to have been a fanservice for female players. Why? Because assuming a historical increasing female playerbase that studies shows has only reached parity in 2010s would indicate that in the 90s there was a significantly higher male playerbase than female. Squall being a "fan service" to the female playerbase seems more of a secondary result of creating a protagonist that the target playerbase could identify/aspire to.

    There's also the fact that you are assuming bishounen characters are there for fanservice when in fact it could be functionally identical to the generic white, 20s, buff male protagonist of most Western games. It could be just a cultural difference of the idealized male. Aesthetically different yet functionally the same. Not meant to draw women as much as make men identify with something relatable or idealized about their gender. I mean the biggest complaint companies say about female protagonist is that their usual consumer base won't be able to identify with it or "too expensive" to do.

    To respond to your previous post, "A sexy male protagonist who is given full agency via a via being the main character/player character isn't the same as a scantly clad female character who always needs to be rescued by a male and has little to no development."

    Outside of games with little to no focus on the story (The Original Legend of Zelda, most non-RPG mario games), I honestly don't know many games I could even apply this too. Final Fantasy IV onward about the only character I can think it could be applied to is Rosa from IV who doesn't get much development. Breath of Fire Series (having played all but IV) I can't think of a female this applies too, No way can you apply this to Zelda from either Ocarina of Time or Twilight Princess,
    Bayonetta doesn't even come close to this either. I can find way more examples of this not happening to women then I can find of it actually being the case.
    I dunno if you miss my point or we are misunderstanding each other, but my point is by the mere fact that the player character is most often male they are given more agency than most females present in the story. Moreover, there are a significantly larger amount of games with male protagonist than there are of female protagonists. I mean the whole of NES generation Zelda and Mario games are a perfect example of that (even most of their modern incarnations too). I have been playing Witcher 3 and you meet Triss Merigold who is a badass sorceress who needs no man to help here yet if you skip her side quests and continue onto the next act, she dies. It is a very contrive way of getting the player to follow certain secondary plot points, especially when it breaks with the character's personality. As for sexism in FF, Raistlin wrote a series a while back that discusses the very issue and basically argues that we only see strong female leads in FFXII and FXIII, though even in FFXII it slightly gets comrprimised by the fact that Vaan is the "every man" through which the narrative is told.
    Last edited by The Summoner of Leviathan; 10-29-2015 at 06:22 AM.

  13. #58

    Default

    These things don't just happen over night. Look as far back as Ms. Pac-man, which was made specifically because of how many female gamers had enjoyed Pac-man, so Ms. pac-man was done as a result of that. Things have commonly been done in response to the rise of female gamers. As far as RPGs...

    http://www.rpg.net/columns/advanced-...dragons4.phtml

    It is in fact about Tabletop RPG's, but it's a style that seems to attract females more then other genres, and it's been something those in the industry have been knowing for years now, it's not something new learned just from that recent study. And your comment still doesn't answer why this is more common in RPG's then other genre's from Japan. If the Idea was just to appeal to males, you'd expect it to be more consistent with other genres, but it's not. I'm not saying it was only there to appeal to women, but I don't think it was something that was entirely unrelated. (Hell, look back to 2009, a full five years before that study came out we saw Gust begin the Atelier Arland Series, which started a long string of Female led Protagonists and is still going on. It's something they have been aware of for quite a while now.)


    When you say 'one is more obscene the the other', there is an interesting topic on whether or not a bare womens chest should be seen as different then a bare males chest, but pretty much most modern cultures think an exposed womens chest is obscene, but they are never exposed for the fan service in just about any game. (There are some exceptions with Titles like God of War). As far as I can tell, the genitals them selves are seen as pretty much just as obscene as the other sex. And you can't really blame devs for not just floundering around bare breast like chests, age ratings can make games a pain in the ass to sell, so they are going to keep it within the target audiences rating range. If you feel exposed breasts should be seen the same way as an exposed chest, I don't think talking games is a way that will accomplish that.

    And different things are sexualized differently because different genders don't always find the same things attractive. Men for example aren't as often attracted to your giant muscle bound body girls. However, women do seem attracted to more muscly men. (Hell, just look at Twilight. That second movie was mostly shirtless men wrestling about. No way was that there for the purpose of men, it was Twilight. )


    And you are right about publishers not thinking someone can Identify playing as another gender. Those publishers are wrong and dumb. From my understanding the majority of the gaming community I talk too, and even a lot of devs, also think this is dumb. There is a very small number of people who seem to think otherwise, and those people tend to be publishers who quite often aren't part of the gaming community (Many top guys in the big publishing companies were never gamers, just business men).

    And yes, the Protagonist has the most Agency out of any of the game characters. Female Protagonists have JUST as much agency as Male Protagonists. Male NPC's have just as much agency as Female NPC's.

    That argument you seem to be making is that there is less representation of women lead rolls then there are male lead roles, and to call that objectification is silly. Lack of Representation and Objectification is not the same thing. As I said above, Males and females when given the same roll (As either NPC or PC) are given the same Agency, so it seems to me they are treated pretty equally when given the same rolls.

    That said I would love to see more representation, but the lack of that is NOT objectification. IT's a separate issue entirely.

    And I know about Raistlin's series, I argued with him about a few points way back then too. I think he got a lot wrong.

    Edit: I'd also like to point out Big Fish Games, a Steam LIke service with a much higher portion of Female gamers then other services like it, and while it has a lot of casual games, it's also pretty heavily loaded with RPG's, and it's been around since 2002. Women liking RPG's is a thing that has been known for quite a long while now.
    Last edited by NeoCracker; 10-29-2015 at 08:11 AM.

  14. #59
     Master of the Fork Cid's Knight Freya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Yer pants
    Posts
    26,207
    Articles
    277
    Blog Entries
    34

    FFXIV Character

    Freya Meow (Sargatanas)

    Default

    I feel you're a little bias about JRPGs and you missed TSoL's point pretty strongly though.

  15. #60

    Default

    They are the example I used because you can see that companies have been including things like sex appeal for the women audience for some time, as well as trying to include games for women on services they are aware there are higher concentrations of women. The Idea that so many things pander only to men is absurd, and JRPG's are simply the best example of that.

    In addition, if I"m missing the point it may well be because of this.
    "I feel like some people here don't get the difference between a character having sex appeal and being objectified (sexually or not). A character can be hot and still be a rounded character. The problem is when a character is solely reduced to that." is how he describes objectification originally. That entire last paragraph, however, has NOTHING to do with what he specified as objectification, and entirely about the amount of representation.

    Nothing he brought up as an example of objectification there match his own explanation earlier.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •