What is wrong with Turn-Based Combat?

[Fynn]

I think the reason why Square Enix are trying to make combat more 'real-time' is because they're trying to appeal to a young, Western market. For this market, turn-based is not the norm for console games, or even for RPGs.

Before I started Final Fantasy, my only experience with turn-based combat was Pokemon. Apart from Pokemon, I'd never played any JRPGs before FF. Coming across turn-based combat in FFX - which Formy had to persuade me to play, originally - was a complete surprise for me. If I'd known it was turn-based before starting, it probably would have put me off the idea.

For me, the norm in RPGs was the kind of system which FFXII had. Most young people in the West may well - like I did - associate turn-based combat with Pokemon. If they heard that the FF7 remake was turn-based, they'd just think, "Oh, that'll be just like Pokemon then. I won't bother getting that".

If Square Enix want the series to go on, they can't just appeal to established fans: they have to bring in new ones. And new, Western fans might be turned off by turn-based combat.

But when FFVII came out, turn-based combat was everywhere, everyone was super used to it, and it was the norm for the market at the time, right? That's why it was such a massive success?

Oh, wait, no, the PS1 was dominated by racing games, sports games, actions games, etcetera. It had almost no turn based games, and that didn't hinder FFVII at all. If anything, it enhanced it by showing off something different from the rest of the market.

These days, FFVII R and FFXV just look exactly like every other game on the platform.

There you have it. SE is so worried about its damaged reputation that they're simply not willing to risk doing something different than the accepted mainstream, out of fear of losing what little hope for financial gain that they have left.

Right now, though, I'm just laughing my ass off because all my predictions from the FFVII article are just coming true XD

Why would they risk doing something different when every time they do something different it blows up in their face?

Wow. You really are new

[Mirage]

Why would they risk doing something different when every time they do something different it blows up in their face?

If there is something SE is known for when it comes to FF, it's to change things up. And I'm glad they do, even when they fail, because the times when they don't, we get really damned good games. I'd rather have 50/50 good/bad games, than 100% average and forgettable games.

[Ayen]

Why would they risk doing something different when every time they do something different it blows up in their face?

If there is something SE is known for when it comes to FF, it's to change things up. And I'm glad they do, even when they fail, because the times when they don't, we get really damned good games. I'd rather have 50/50 good/bad games, than 100% average and forgettable games.

Which they became less efficient at after the merge leading to more negative reactions from fans.

All I'm saying.

[Fynn]

Ugh... Can we please stop bringing up the merger as the source of all evil in SE? What is this, 2002?

FF has always innovated, DQ has always sticked to the same formula. DQ is doing okay, FF is doing okay now thanks to ARR. Yes, the Fabula Nova Crystalis was a stupid idea that cost SE millions and its reputation, but one attempt AFTER the merger that has been very successful is anything Kingdom Hearts related and that is still their best selling franchise as of now. Even if you consider KH as being developed before the merger, the entire rest of the series is decidedly a post-merger creation and is making them big bucks despite trying loads of new mechanics like card systems, deck commands, and dream eaters and flowmotion.

[Mirage]

oh no, a merger truther

[Loony BoB]

People who think that SE don't innovate just as much as they used to baffle me. Looking at pretty much every game out there, SE is possibly the biggest risk-taker in all of AAA gaming. And people dramatically overstate how much relative innovation the older games had compared to the newer ones.

[Fynn]

I actually agree with you for once, BoB

It actually was a risky move to rebrand Versus XIII into FFXV instead of just killing it and moving on, and the changes they apparently made for Lightning Returns (which I can't confirm myself, it's just what I heard) were quite bold too. In fact, the FFVII Remake changes are one of the few recent examples when they're trying to play it safe, because they are worried XV won't wirk out.

See, this is why it's important to always look at these things from a broader perspective

[Mirage]

Do we even know that VII isn't more atb based yet? Something like XII with the free roaming, though a little quicker paced.

this post right here

we've seen some carefully edited gameplay alpha footage. It could be as ATB as FFX-2 is, just with free movement. Maybe moving would even eat up ATB time?

[Fynn]

Do we even know that VII isn't more atb based yet? Something like XII with the free roaming, though a little quicker paced.

this post right here

we've seen some carefully edited gameplay alpha footage. It could be as ATB as FFX-2 is, just with free movement. Maybe moving would even eat up ATB time?

That kind of reminds me of BoF: Dragon Quarter. Except that was totally turn-based, not an action system, but you still lost action points the farther you moved.

[Fox]

In short: SE has simply convinced themselves that Westerners don't care about Turn-Based combat despite the numbers not really being there to support it. They believe their own hyperbole and sadly there is nothing we can do to change VII's fate. We can change the trend by still supporting games that offer old school combat but who knows.

Well there's something we can happily agree on

It's funny you mentioned Kingdom Hearts as well... because I'd be just as annoyed of KH going turn based as I might be VII using a KH style system!

[Ayen]

I see I'm still doing a trout job of explaining myself.

I meant people have responded largely negatively to a lot (which does not mean all) of the 'risks' and 'different' things they tried after the merge, so I can't really blame them if they suddenly don't want to be different now. I can still remember X-2 and XII getting trout on when they first came out same as XIII. All I meant.

[Midgar Mist]

I prefer turn based, but have been forced to concede to action based, grown to like it more. Ive played all the good turn based games for ps1 and 2 and any others that might be good are too expensive or theres no PAL version.

[Mirage]

I see I'm still doing a trout job of explaining myself.

I meant people have responded largely negatively to a lot (which does not mean all) of the 'risks' and 'different' things they tried after the merge, so I can't really blame them if they suddenly don't want to be different now. I can still remember X-2 and XII getting trout on when they first came out same as XIII. All I meant.

Trout isn't just one undiscernable lump of stuff. I don't remember anyone talking trout about the battle system in FFX-2.

A developer should be expected to be able to look at which parts that were well received, and which were not.

If people say a game's story is trout, you don't fix that by changing the battle system. If you do that, you are literally stupid and should be fired.

[maybee]

What is this, 2002?

Hell yeah

Don't be fooled by the rocks that I got
I'm still, I'm still Jenny from the block
Used to have a little, now I have a lot~

[Ayen]

I can't wait to see Spider-Man and X-Men 2 in theaters. That trout is gonna be dope!