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Thread: The Party

  1. #16

  2. #17
    Shlup's Retired Pimp Raistlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover View Post
    FFX has a much darker atmosphere[...]
    I consider this assumption to be rather dramatically wrong, though I suppose you could quibble on how to define "atmosphere." Like Fynn said, FFX has some dark themes (not even clearly darker than XII's, mind you), but everything else was far and indisputably lighter. XII is an ideological companion with FFT, whereas FFX is more consistent with the occasionally-campy treatment of... well, the rest of the PS1 and PS2 era FF games. Which I will be the first to say is not at all a bad thing by itself (FFX is bad for many other reasons), but I like how FFXII handled this particular issue in a more serious way. I can understand the idea that your mileage may vary and we might just have to agree to disagree.

    To analogize to other popular media: FFX is Harry Potter. FFXII is Game of Thrones. Many people prefer Harry Potter, and I couldn't really call them objectively wrong; I just have different values and preferences.

    (FFXIII is Twilight)

  3. #18
    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    A'nutoh Tia (Sargatanas)

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    I'd still say that's a grossly unfair comparison, because Rowling at least understands how actual human emotions and interactions work, which can't be said about Toriyama

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raistlin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover View Post
    FFX has a much darker atmosphere[...]
    I consider this assumption to be rather dramatically wrong, though I suppose you could quibble on how to define "atmosphere." Like Fynn said, FFX has some dark themes (not even clearly darker than XII's, mind you), but everything else was far and indisputably lighter. XII is an ideological companion with FFT, whereas FFX is more consistent with the occasionally-campy treatment of... well, the rest of the PS1 and PS2 era FF games. Which I will be the first to say is not at all a bad thing by itself (FFX is bad for many other reasons), but I like how FFXII handled this particular issue in a more serious way. I can understand the idea that your mileage may vary and we might just have to agree to disagree.

    To analogize to other popular media: FFX is Harry Potter. FFXII is Game of Thrones. Many people prefer Harry Potter, and I couldn't really call them objectively wrong; I just have different values and preferences.

    (FFXIII is Twilight)

    ...FFX is about how death is everywhere, rules everything and there is no hope.

    FFXII is a couple superpowers going at it. It's about as dark as real life.

    How about this. Worst case scenario in XII is Archadia wins. Sucks for the people of Dalmasca and other places with Vayne's iron grip. But Vayne is not a sadist. He's also not immortal. Larsa or someone better will cometo power eventually and the world will be fine. Even under Vayne's rule, the world will be more or less fine, if unhappy.

    Worst case scenario in X is genocide of all sapient life.

    FFXII is a political drama, FFX is an existential one. The stakes are so much higher and everything revolves around those stakes.

  5. #20
    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    Which is why XII is darker.

    Sonething that is closer to life will always be darker than some space whale creating tsunamis by farting on the ocean. This is the very essence of the Adult Fear trope.

    To elaborate, using Raist's GoT example - Game of Thrones isn't dark because a lot of people die. Yes, many do, and it's shocking, but it's not the fact that they die that makes them dark, but that they die regardless of their endeavors. All of their hopes are crushed because the world is cold and unfeeling and everyone is a terrible person underneath. And you can see parallels with real people and real life events, and you start to question how good people are innately. That's dark.

    In FFXII, similarly, it's not about the power struggle. It's about Vayne being well intentioned, and Ashe being just as well intentioned, and Basch being fiercely loyal - even if those good intentions lead them to genocide. Granted, Ashe did not decide on mass genocide because she opened up to others, but Vayne almost did in the name of freedom. That's why it's dark - good intentions are not enough, and can often have horrifying results, just as in real life.

  6. #21
    'Just Friends' Formalhaut's Avatar
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    Yeah, as much as me and Fynn may disagree with party dynamics, FFXII is darker, simply because it touches more on reality. FFX has dark moments (Kilika?!) and dark themes (role of religion in dominating the masses, corruption) but I would say FFXII is darker.

    It's more consistently dark, anyway. FFX has several moments of lightness.


  7. #22

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    FFXII is consistently nothing because the pacing is the worst in the series. You will forget what you're doing or why or who the hell you're fighting because you just spent an hour crossing a boring desert or two hours hiking to Archadia where you have to see some dancing moogles.

    Reality can be very cruel - ASOIAF deals with nobility exploiting commoners, torture, rape, the role of women in society, discrimination.... That's why it is dark. FFXII deals with nothing except the most basic politics of "I want my little dinky country to be free." The darkest thing in XII is what they did to Reks - fooling him with Gabranth as Bach, stabbing him, smurfing his mind up until he was a vegetable - but that part gets no points for being so poorly conveyed.

    Sorry, but "everything is ruled by a cult of death where everyone lives under lies and fear" is far darker than FFXII Ivalice which is pretty much the best FF world you can ask for.

  8. #23

  9. #24

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    You mean those gods who don't do anything?

    They're pretty cool. Their entire policy is "Hands off except in the most extreme situations." Seems like good people to me.

  10. #25
    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    It's more like "let's orchestrate all the conflicts in the world so that people don't develop too far and start thinking for themselves or something".

    So, you know, exactly like what's going on in Syria

  11. #26

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    I think you misunderstood the game's lore and plot. The Occuria have never done anything except respond to dire threats. The Espers rebelled so the Occuria put them down. There was apparently an enormously destructive war so they gave Raithwall the Nethicite to stop it. And in XII they are again only responding to Venat's and Archadia's provocations.

  12. #27
    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    A'nutoh Tia (Sargatanas)

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    I think you're the one who misunderstood. All those stones that people war over - granted by the Occuria, to incite conflict.

    Seriously, this is Vayne's entire motivation - to bring reign of history back to the hands of man. His entire campaign is about breaking free from the influence of the Occuria.

  13. #28

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    There was no Nethicite to war over before the Occuria gave it to Raithwall to end the war. It's all locked away far beyond any normal person's ability to get it. And after Raithwall ended the wars that plagued the land, there was a golden age of peace and propserity.

    You're right Vayne started the war in FFXII to steal Nethicite but that's on him and his co-conspirators Venat and Cid, not the Occuria.

  14. #29
    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    The point is the Occuria are in control of human history, and whether they begin or end the conflict doesn't matter as much as they control it. They wanted Ashe to enact genocide. Sure, that would end the war, but that's genocide.

  15. #30
    Pinkasaurus Rex Cid's Knight Pumpkin's Avatar
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    As a person who loves me some character interaction, I really would have liked them to communicate more, personally. Even like skits like Tales does or something. It makes me that much more invested. Sure I can use my imagination, but I can do that with anything really and I want to see what FFXII is putting out in terms of character interaction. How does FFXII think Fran and Penelo should get along? I barely know

    I love in battle conversation. Not gonna lie, I may be in the minority, but I do. I mean, I'd be talking a lot in this situation. Giant weird bird monster coming after me? I AM GOING TO COMMENT ON THAT. Even if it's just easy, mundane monsters. Be like "Oh this thing again". Even end of battle quotes or something. SOMETHING

    This game, for me, would be much better with more character interaction. As it stands I feel very disappointed with the amount of relationships they have and really don't even care about half of the party.

    Fun fact though, I have an appointment with my sociology professor next week and one of the things we will discuss is how much people would bond or not bond if they found themselves in this sort of situation

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