Who is the Real Evil in this game? Sephiroth or Shinra?

[Midgar Mist]

You can almost feel sorry for Sephiroth at times.....

Also....Shinra made him

Gast Faremis had an attack of conscience after he realised his terrible Dr Frankenstein-esque mistake....Hojo didnt

Shinra will lie,cheat and cover up anything they can to survive. They crush Sector 7, they put actors in Nibelhiem...messing with Cloud's memories even further. All the while...they continue with their nefarious experiments.

Thoughts?

[Forsaken Lover]

Hojo, who is depraved even by Shinra standards and, as Cloud correctly points out, is directly responsible for Seph losing his mind.

[Sephiroth]

Source of Evil: ShinRa Electric Power Company
Main Antagonist: Sephiroth
Main Villain: Sephiroth
Connects all things: ShinRa Electric Power Company + Subject "Jenova"

[Galuf]

smurfing Choco billy

[Wolf Kanno]

Shin-Ra is pretty irredeemable with more cookie-cutter villains than Sephiroth. Hojo is pretty much where I imagine Sephiroth's evil streak actually comes from. I've alwyays said that Shin-Ra was the more interesting villain because they pretty much are the direct cause of most of the Planet's troubles.

[Forsaken Lover]

Garland was also the cause of Kuja, doesn't mean he should have been the villain.

[Wolf Kanno]

Garland was also the cause of Kuja, doesn't mean he should have been the villain.

I actually think Garland was a better villain than Kuja. He was at least something different from previous FF bad guys in that Garland fought for a cause he felt was justified that wasn't about stroking his own ego. He was surprisingly selfless and difficult to hate which is the type of villain I feel IX really needed as opposed to Kuja who is somewhat tragic but still a complete jerk about everything. Granted I love Kuja as a villain, but I would say that Garland was the more fascinating antagonist.

So same deal with Shin-Ra, especially if they didn't chicken out and play the game more realistically where AVALANCHE are actually treated as real terrorist and not an edgy but otherwise bumbling freedom fighter outfit. Imagine if VII had dropped Sephiroth and focused on working for an organization trying to stop people from using Mako despite people growing so dependent upon it? You know something actually reflective of the real world instead of Shin-Ra the evil empire. It would have been more groundbreaking than what we got.

[Galuf]

i always like to think Garland turned good after he died, i really like him lol.

[Forsaken Lover]

Garland was also the cause of Kuja, doesn't mean he should have been the villain.

I actually think Garland was a better villain than Kuja. He was at least something different from previous FF bad guys in that Garland fought for a cause he felt was justified that wasn't about stroking his own ego. He was surprisingly selfless and difficult to hate which is the type of villain I feel IX really needed as opposed to Kuja who is somewhat tragic but still a complete jerk about everything. Granted I love Kuja as a villain, but I would say that Garland was the more fascinating antagonist.

So same deal with Shin-Ra, especially if they didn't chicken out and play the game more realistically where AVALANCHE are actually treated as real terrorist and not an edgy but otherwise bumbling freedom fighter outfit. Imagine if VII had dropped Sephiroth and focused on working for an organization trying to stop people from using Mako despite people growing so dependent upon it? You know something actually reflective of the real world instead of Shin-Ra the evil empire. It would have been more groundbreaking than what we got.

I liked Garland and found him very interesting as well but he's just not very good FF villain material. He's too...impersonal. Even Vayne and his cronies were crueler than Garland.

As for Shinra and Sephiroth, it's simply a FF staple. Theopening act is some big evil empire but eventually they give way to a super badass individual ie. Golbez/Zemus, Kefka, Sephiroth and then after Sephy Edea/Ultimecia and Kuja. Even FF2 counts since the Emperor's Empire is no longer a thing by the end, it's just the Emperor himself that is the threat.

AVALANCHE killed a lot of innocent people, the game makes that very clear. It was just a case of Black and Grey Morality. AVALANCHE 's methods were not nice but Shinra was pure evil. I am replaying FFVII right now and I like that Kalm exists because if you talk to the NPC's there, you see what I would take is the "average citizens'" view of Shinra. All they know is this company provides them with this awesome power source and makes their lives easier. They think of Midgar as a "floating city" and as a wonder, instead of a hellhole like it actually is.

I just don't think you can make an entire game out of this. FF has a proud tradition of "gotta save the world!" And not save the world because it's slowly being leeched of life, but save it because it's in real, imminent peril. The only games that kind of avert this are X and XII.

[Midgar Mist]

AVALANCHE didnt do the right thing, thats true. However, they feel bad about it later. They did what they did as a human reaction to the overwhelming evil that surrounded them.

Shinra are very complex indeed.

Hojo is pure evil

President Shinra, Heideggar and Scarlet are as bad as each other

Rufus is some kind of split personality

The Turks do what they want, switching sides whenever they feel like it

Reeve is the voice of conscience, but works undercover as Cait Sith for most of the game (I find this character deeply interesting, Vincent's hatred of him at the beginning of Dirge of Cerberus makes no sense whatsoever)

Whats great about this story is that the characters are complex. It even sometimes has you sympathizing with villains, while at times questioning the actions of the heroes.

[Wolf Kanno]

Garland was also the cause of Kuja, doesn't mean he should have been the villain.

I actually think Garland was a better villain than Kuja. He was at least something different from previous FF bad guys in that Garland fought for a cause he felt was justified that wasn't about stroking his own ego. He was surprisingly selfless and difficult to hate which is the type of villain I feel IX really needed as opposed to Kuja who is somewhat tragic but still a complete jerk about everything. Granted I love Kuja as a villain, but I would say that Garland was the more fascinating antagonist.

So same deal with Shin-Ra, especially if they didn't chicken out and play the game more realistically where AVALANCHE are actually treated as real terrorist and not an edgy but otherwise bumbling freedom fighter outfit. Imagine if VII had dropped Sephiroth and focused on working for an organization trying to stop people from using Mako despite people growing so dependent upon it? You know something actually reflective of the real world instead of Shin-Ra the evil empire. It would have been more groundbreaking than what we got.

I liked Garland and found him very interesting as well but he's just not very good FF villain material. He's too...impersonal. Even Vayne and his cronies were crueler than Garland.

As for Shinra and Sephiroth, it's simply a FF staple. Theopening act is some big evil empire but eventually they give way to a super badass individual ie. Golbez/Zemus, Kefka, Sephiroth and then after Sephy Edea/Ultimecia and Kuja. Even FF2 counts since the Emperor's Empire is no longer a thing by the end, it's just the Emperor himself that is the threat.

AVALANCHE killed a lot of innocent people, the game makes that very clear. It was just a case of Black and Grey Morality. AVALANCHE 's methods were not nice but Shinra was pure evil. I am replaying FFVII right now and I like that Kalm exists because if you talk to the NPC's there, you see what I would take is the "average citizens'" view of Shinra. All they know is this company provides them with this awesome power source and makes their lives easier. They think of Midgar as a "floating city" and as a wonder, instead of a hellhole like it actually is.

I just don't think you can make an entire game out of this. FF has a proud tradition of "gotta save the world!" And not save the world because it's slowly being leeched of life, but save it because it's in real, imminent peril. The only games that kind of avert this are X and XII.

With the right writer, you can easily make a morally complex game about these issues but Square chickened out and settled for the "save the world from evil" schlock. To me, the early section was just a more promising experience before the game developed into the usual "stop the face of evil" nonsense. It's the reason why I like Shin-Ra more because barring some twists concerning his backstory, Sephiroth is frankly not interesting as we've dealt with his type before in the genre. Shin-Ra itself falls short of what it could have been by being made into a modern expy for the evil empire as opposed to being made more accurately. We could have had some serious Shadow Run type shenanigans going on here but Square settled for the safe and easy option instead, which is a shame to be honest.

It's sort of why I am disappointed with Garland from IX because he could have been a really cool major villain and a great take on a classic villain (Zemus, now playing FuSoYa's role) that could have really pushed the series in a more intellectually stimulating direction but again, it settled for something more simple and safe. If FF really wants to survive, it needs to jump up the game in terms of creating real depth, not the illusion of it.

[Forsaken Lover]

I'm pretty sure nobody at Square would, even if they could, go back in time and rewrite FFVII. I dare say the same was successful enough as is and people liked it a lot as is and that is with Shinra being sidelined by Sephiroth.

We know Xenogears was rejected as FFVII because it was 'too dark." The fact is, Final Fantasy has a core set of ideas and it sticks to those ideas. They don't WANT moral ambiguity of the kind you speak of. It's not what the series is about.

[Wolf Kanno]

It's not about rewriting VII as much as it's about pointing out how they wasted a perfectly good plot for something simpler. It's part of the reason why my favorite games of PS1 Square generation are generally the non-FF titles, because they did push for something more complex and thought provoking. Even FFXII is a nice step in the right direction despite being badly diluted from the usual stories that Matsuno wrote. Part of why I feel FF seems to be left behind by older fans is because their set of ideals for the series refuse to grow despite their core fanbase doing so. One of the reasons why I feel WRPGs have grown more popular is due to being willing to tackle more complex and difficult topics and scenarios, whereas JRPGs still hold onto more conventional tropes due to a fear of lack of familiarity. Even though JRPGs do hit a wide spread of different topics and themes, it's interesting to note that most series still stick to a sense of familiarity within the series own context.

My point is that VII could have been so much more (not that the rest of the series isn't guilty of this as well) and why I always felt the Shin-Ra were a more intriguing villain than Sephiroth.

[Bubba]

smurfing Choco billy

Damn straight. Whenever I sell my Mastered All materias it's always to him. I know it doesn't matter who you sell them to but damn it he's going to give me back all that money that he stole for all those greens.

[Midgar Mist]

It's not about rewriting VII as much as it's about pointing out how they wasted a perfectly good plot for something simpler.

You think what they chose was simpler?

It took me years to get my head round the FF7 story as it is. And when it fell in to place for me, I absolutely loved it and still do

I wouldn't know about later JRPGs as I'm so very retro.