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Thread: FL Plays the Persona Series

  1. #61

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    So, Googling which game did alignment best, I found this.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Megaten/com...ach_alignment/

    I couldn't really read any of it. I just got enough to confirm wha twas already pretty obvious to me about who was rep'ing which side in SJ. It's gotten even clearer now what with Jimenez going on and on about power and wanting to be strong and blah blah blah. That and he's just kind of a rude asshole. I mean, Mastema saved our lives yet he's like "I CAN GET UP ON MY OWN!" when the nice angel offered him a hand.

    The third Sector marked some real plot focus though, which is welcome. I feel like things are happening now instead of me just wandering around. I'm not sure what is up with this Louisa lady, gotta figure she's not all she appears given she can appear and disappear at will and maybe only I could see her. Also Gore went missing. Zombie Gore? Was he never dead to begin with? Mysterious, mysterious. Still don't know who those three jerks were chatting when I nearly died way back when all this started. I might not know that until the end.

    Can you actually refuse Mastema's offer? Can you elect to not use the Horkos Buster? I imagine things must be pretty different if you can do that. But WHY would you refuse aid from someone who has already helped you? Mastema has been nothing but cool and he continues to be cool. You'd have to be an absolute idiot to refuse help when it's offered.

    Speaking of Horkos though, hardest boss yet, mainly because I needed to update my party. Best defense is a good offense. I went and made a team with strong Electric attacks. Horkos loses to keep draining HP so you really gotta keep on the damage. When he was lecturing me about how humans create and create and whatever, I said we can also destroy because apparently he was trying to say humans just make a lot of crap. Well, we are also good at destroying crap.

    I get that the demons are supposed to be like our antithesis but they're not so hot at their jobs.

    Is there an origin for all of the demons in the SMT series? Is it internally consistent? Because SJ has kinda confused me on the exact relationship between humans and demons.

    So I'm dejected. I wanted to do this EX Mission for this lady, finding this dude hanging out in Mitra's palace, but after searching the whole thing from top to bottom, nothing at all. I thought I was onto something when I used my upgraded Gate Seal thingy to get into this new room in Bootes. Sure enough, the new area led right to a small hallway of the palace. There's literally nothing else in it so it made sense this was where you'd meet the guy you're supposed to be after. But...nothing. I then thought I was being clever by waiting for New Moon. The quest giver said this guy is stealthy and likes shadow so taking the Moon stuff into account made sense, right? But still nothing. So I just wasted like an hour. Also feel like a moron.

    And that's the fourth Sector down. I'm just failing EX Missions left and right. There are these two demons who want me to each bring them an item to kill the other. I never got either item. I'll head back and grind some for items and hopefully get the Spear so the one guy can kill the vampire.

    Anyway, in story news, this game is super Humans Are The Real Monsters. That's fine though. I just wish people trout on this game like they do Chrono Cross. At least in CC it was the planet itself trouting on humanity so that makes sense. Here, it's a bunch of crazy monsters. I know they keep saying this...whatever, German-word, is the Earth's antibody for humanity but demons have been around in all the other games too so far as I know. They're just kinda jerks. I told Asura he was full of crap about how order has ruined everything in the human world. Also he was a really easy boss compared to Horkos. Maybe I'm just getting a bit better at the game. Protip: Lots of buffing and debuffing at the start of a fight is good. (I am a master gamer) Seriously though, my Makami was doing 200 with regular attacks. I thought magic al weaknesses and demon co-op was the best source of damage but not always.

    But ya know, I just spent hours wandering around that "dark water maze" trying to get one goddam material for this new weapon that I was hoping was the Spear. But smurf it, I give up. I want to enjoy the game's story, not kill my brain with tedium for crap I don't even need.

    And I would say that's Sector E down but nope. Luckily Arthur saved me. I was blithely moving along, continuing my new strategy of having an ever-changing roster of demons so I can keep farming Sources and then a random Demon NPC says I'm about to met Ouroboros. I've heard of him and that he's pretty hard and I was totally not prepared. But then we get called back because something is afoot in Sector C. Also I don't have the next level of gate seal thingy so we were stuck anyway.

    But man, I think I'm gonna end this post by bringing it back to how it all began. If Hudson is the representative for Chaos in this game, no wonder I've heard this is the worst depiction of Chaos in the series. "THEY'RE DEAD, MAN! ABANDON THE GIGANTIC AND ITS POTENTIAL SURVIVORS SO WE CAN ALL RUN AWAY WITH OUR TAILS BETWEEN OUR LEGS!" There's something to be said about the charisma of a strongman and that being particularly potent in an escapist piece of fiction like an RPG which is all about empowerment. Naturally "you" think being strong is awesome and it's a short leap from that to "well, I'm strong and awesome so I'm better than weak people." If you have the right person nudging you along, so much the better. I've been in a SW mood of late so let's just say someone like Darth Bane does it better than Hudson here. Bane was a terrible piece of trout but you couldn't help but respect him, no matter how twisted his philosophy was. He preached power and the will to survive and he demonstrated both very well.

    Hudson is just a bitch. Survival of the Fittest types might very well say to abandon the potential survivors as well but they wouldn't do it in such an openly craven way.

    But yeah, this game can't be close to being over. I don't know what's going on. I haven't seen that Louisa lady again since her one scene forever ago.... And then there's everything else.

    Also I gotta say, I've come around on the music. It was mainly the music in the first two sectors that put me off. Subsequent dungeon tunes have been very good and the battle music is excellent.



    I cannot help but compare it with Persona 2, my only other SMT game at this point.



    Strange Journey and Innocent Sin are very different games as is blatantly shown here by their wildly different boss themes. I always heard P1 and 2 were more "SMT" and it wasn't until 3 that the Persona series came into its own. But well, Innocent Sin is nothing like what I'm playing now.

    I guess there's no alignment in Persona then?

  2. #62
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover View Post
    So, Googling which game did alignment best, I found this.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Megaten/com...ach_alignment/

    I couldn't really read any of it. I just got enough to confirm wha twas already pretty obvious to me about who was rep'ing which side in SJ. It's gotten even clearer now what with Jimenez going on and on about power and wanting to be strong and blah blah blah. That and he's just kind of a rude asshole. I mean, Mastema saved our lives yet he's like "I CAN GET UP ON MY OWN!" when the nice angel offered him a hand.
    You poor sweet summer child who has never known a winter.

    The third Sector marked some real plot focus though, which is welcome. I feel like things are happening now instead of me just wandering around. I'm not sure what is up with this Louisa lady, gotta figure she's not all she appears given she can appear and disappear at will and maybe only I could see her. Also Gore went missing. Zombie Gore? Was he never dead to begin with? Mysterious, mysterious. Still don't know who those three jerks were chatting when I nearly died way back when all this started. I might not know that until the end.
    You'll learn slightly more about them if you continue on the Law path like you seem to be. Though their identity is more fan theory than fact...

    Can you actually refuse Mastema's offer? Can you elect to not use the Horkos Buster? I imagine things must be pretty different if you can do that. But WHY would you refuse aid from someone who has already helped you? Mastema has been nothing but cool and he continues to be cool. You'd have to be an absolute idiot to refuse help when it's offered.
    Well, unless you've played the rest of the series and know what Law's deal is. That or just look up the historical Mastema from Hebrew texts.

    Speaking of Horkos though, hardest boss yet, mainly because I needed to update my party. Best defense is a good offense. I went and made a team with strong Electric attacks. Horkos loses to keep draining HP so you really gotta keep on the damage. When he was lecturing me about how humans create and create and whatever, I said we can also destroy because apparently he was trying to say humans just make a lot of crap. Well, we are also good at destroying crap.
    Technically the first boss chastised humanity for being too good at destroying crap.

    I get that the demons are supposed to be like our antithesis but they're not so hot at their jobs.

    Is there an origin for all of the demons in the SMT series? Is it internally consistent? Because SJ has kinda confused me on the exact relationship between humans and demons.
    Demons usually hail from a world called Makai but looking deeper into the nature of the series, demons are implied to be the creation of mankind itself. Our very belief in them gives them form and power. It's why the Old Gods of the Chaos side are trying to get humanity to believe in them again so they can be the rulers, and why YHHW and his angels are trying to prevent it because they represent the "new gods" and would thus lose their power if people began believing in older religions again.

    Twice now in the series, it's been shown that one of the only options known to end the eternal struggle of Law vs. Chaos is to wipe out humanity and existence itself.

    So I'm dejected. I wanted to do this EX Mission for this lady, finding this dude hanging out in Mitra's palace, but after searching the whole thing from top to bottom, nothing at all. I thought I was onto something when I used my upgraded Gate Seal thingy to get into this new room in Bootes. Sure enough, the new area led right to a small hallway of the palace. There's literally nothing else in it so it made sense this was where you'd meet the guy you're supposed to be after. But...nothing. I then thought I was being clever by waiting for New Moon. The quest giver said this guy is stealthy and likes shadow so taking the Moon stuff into account made sense, right? But still nothing. So I just wasted like an hour. Also feel like a moron.
    Honestly, you see maybe half, at best. of most of the Sectors when you first enter them, as you get more exploration upgrades for the Demonica suit, you'll open up areas more easily. Also, some quests can only be completed later when you have access to later areas. If the quest is the one for Hariti looking for Pomegranate seeds, you need to head to the 5th floor of Mithra's dungeon and cross a damage floor. Use Enemy Search to find a Persephone and then talk to her to get the seeds. Return to the third floor where Hariti is during a full moon to get your reward.

    And that's the fourth Sector down. I'm just failing EX Missions left and right. There are these two demons who want me to each bring them an item to kill the other. I never got either item. I'll head back and grind some for items and hopefully get the Spear so the one guy can kill the vampire.
    It's possible to buy both of the weapons in the shop once you've updated it enough. You can also acquire the Hawthorn Spear by doing the Dwarf Blacksmith EX Mission in sector Carnia

    Anyway, in story news, this game is super Humans Are The Real Monsters. That's fine though. I just wish people trout on this game like they do Chrono Cross. At least in CC it was the planet itself trouting on humanity so that makes sense. Here, it's a bunch of crazy monsters. I know they keep saying this...whatever, German-word, is the Earth's antibody for humanity but demons have been around in all the other games too so far as I know. They're just kinda jerks. I told Asura he was full of crap about how order has ruined everything in the human world. Also he was a really easy boss compared to Horkos. Maybe I'm just getting a bit better at the game. Protip: Lots of buffing and debuffing at the start of a fight is good. (I am a master gamer) Seriously though, my Makami was doing 200 with regular attacks. I thought magic al weaknesses and demon co-op was the best source of damage but not always.
    MegaTen could be renamed "Humans are the Real Monsters" the Game. Even Persona can be pretty anvilicious about it. CC gets crapped on due to the tonal shift it has from CT, as well that the logical stretches it makes to try to create an argument for it. Again the fairy rescue mission in CC was kind of a dumb way to get to this point. The first four sectors of the game are demons interpretations of mankind's vices for wrath and envy, lust, gluttony, and finally sloth. The fact the crew mentions how similar many of the sectors are to what's been really happening in the normal world gives the impression that the planet has seen better days. Also, many of the demon bosses you face are actually ancient nature deities, so they certainly do represent the Planet's will.

    But man, I think I'm gonna end this post by bringing it back to how it all began. If Hudson is the representative for Chaos in this game, no wonder I've heard this is the worst depiction of Chaos in the series. "THEY'RE DEAD, MAN! ABANDON THE GIGANTIC AND ITS POTENTIAL SURVIVORS SO WE CAN ALL RUN AWAY WITH OUR TAILS BETWEEN OUR LEGS!" There's something to be said about the charisma of a strongman and that being particularly potent in an escapist piece of fiction like an RPG which is all about empowerment. Naturally "you" think being strong is awesome and it's a short leap from that to "well, I'm strong and awesome so I'm better than weak people." If you have the right person nudging you along, so much the better. I've been in a SW mood of late so let's just say someone like Darth Bane does it better than Hudson here. Bane was a terrible piece of trout but you couldn't help but respect him, no matter how twisted his philosophy was. He preached power and the will to survive and he demonstrated both very well.

    Hudson is just a bitch. Survival of the Fittest types might very well say to abandon the potential survivors as well but they wouldn't do it in such an openly craven way.
    Jiminez is one of the better Chaos heroes actually, and he helps represent the hypocrisy of the alignment well. Chaos is not necessarily evil, so the Darth Bane allusion loses a bit of its meaning because they represent two different things, just as Law isn't exactly the nicest faction either. Jiminez certainly has his faults, but I liked that he's pretty nice to you if you side with him. Oddly enough Chaos heroes tend to have better loyalty than the Law Heroes do, though that loyalty is usually only for those they care about and Jiminez certainly exemplifies that quality. Course the very nature of Chaos is the freedom of choice so it makes sense they would still like you whether you side with them or not.

    But yeah, this game can't be close to being over. I don't know what's going on. I haven't seen that Louisa lady again since her one scene forever ago.... And then there's everything else.
    You are maybe a third of the way through the game I believe? Course the last stretch of the game's length varies on what alignment you are when the alignment lock happens. Neutral is traditionally the longest and hardest path, though in SJ's case, you're spared one of the more difficult non-final boss battles in the game if you go that route.

    You will only really get to learn more about Louisa if you o the Chaos route I'm afraid.

    Also I gotta say, I've come around on the music. It was mainly the music in the first two sectors that put me off. Subsequent dungeon tunes have been very good and the battle music is excellent.



    I cannot help but compare it with Persona 2, my only other SMT game at this point.



    Strange Journey and Innocent Sin are very different games as is blatantly shown here by their wildly different boss themes. I always heard P1 and 2 were more "SMT" and it wasn't until 3 that the Persona series came into its own. But well, Innocent Sin is nothing like what I'm playing now.
    The MegaTen games usually have some stellar soundtracks, even the old SNES entries have some pretty stellar tracks.

    I guess there's no alignment in Persona then?
    Yeah, the alignment system is purely for the mainline entries and Devil Summoner series. Persona does have multiple endings usually barring the second entry.

  3. #63
    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    Heh, yeah. Good luck trusting any of the law guys. Though just as Jimenez is a really cool chaos hero, I also really liked Zelenin as a law representative, even if the dynamic between the two heroes worked better in SMT IV

  4. #64
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    I think what I like the most about Zelenin was that you had a better understanding as to why she sided with Law, and that's something that she holds over most of the Law Heroes. Though the Law Heroes of SMTI and IV are still the most likable, same with the Chaos Heroes. Course Jiminez and Zelenin are heads and shoulder better than the assholes from Devil Survivor.

  5. #65

  6. #66

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    @Wolf

    The "you'll learn more if you go Law/Chaos" is intriguing but daunting.
    Are all the games like this? Sort of pieces of a puzzle and you only get the full picture if you do all the routes?

    Seems like quite the investment. I like this game but I can't imagine playing it three times, at least not back-to-back which would be the most "complete" way to understand the plot or characters or whatever.


    Also how do you know the demon bosses are old nature deities?

    I know Chaos isn't "supposed' to be evil. It's the route of freedom. But the problem is, "without power, what future can you claim?" In a world where everyone can do whatever, only the strong survive. That does not promote empathy or morality. I don't think Jimenez is evil, he's just selfish and petty and that can easily be exploited to do evil.

    Sure he seems to love Boo but he was also the first one who was like "let's get the hell outta here!" even as the other crewmen were like "dude, we can't just abandon potential survivors."

    So maybe Chaos isn't evil but it seems entirely too small-minded, at least as represented by Jimenez.

    Also I heard Devil Survivor, at least the 3DS remakes anyway, did the LNC morality thing really well. The Devil Summoner games for the PS2 and SMT3 don't have the typical moral system though and some like that.

    But hey, this is a magical adventure I intend to experience and come to my own conclusions on what is best. I got a lot of game to go apparently and then several other games to beat as well.

    Seems you are a pretty well-informed SMT fan, WK. Hope you can keep enlightening me. Just no spoilers!@@

    Also on gameplay note, thank you for the EX Mission info. trout seems so tedious but I bet it has good rewards so....

  7. #67

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    "Equality is a lie. A myth to appease the masses. Simply look around and you will see the lie for what it is! There are those with power, those with the strength and will to lead. And there are those meant to follow those incapable of anything but servitude and a meager, worthless existence."
    ~Darth Bane

  8. #68
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    • Former Cid's Knight

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover View Post
    @Wolf

    The "you'll learn more if you go Law/Chaos" is intriguing but daunting.
    Are all the games like this? Sort of pieces of a puzzle and you only get the full picture if you do all the routes?

    Seems like quite the investment. I like this game but I can't imagine playing it three times, at least not back-to-back which would be the most "complete" way to understand the plot or characters or whatever.
    Yes that's how they usually work though some games are more worth the effort than others. I would say SJ is one where you may just want to work on one path and then read up on the other two because the amount of new content is not necessarily worth the aggravation of going through the game multiple times, unless you truly love the gameplay.

    Also how do you know the demon bosses are old nature deities?
    Nature might not have been the best term to use. They are mostly old gods, in fact three of the first four bosses are based on judge like deities who were later demonized by later religions. The first four bosses are all judges of some form with the exception of Asura which is a catch all term in Vedic and Hindu religion for the "old wild gods". The later bosses are all connected by having a mother figure element to them and all being deities that are associated with either the primordial world or truth.

    All of the demons, monsters and angels are based off their real world counterparts to some extent, whether it's their design or very nature. A good knowledge of mythology and religion will actually help you out quite a bit in the series.

    I know Chaos isn't "supposed' to be evil. It's the route of freedom. But the problem is, "without power, what future can you claim?" In a world where everyone can do whatever, only the strong survive. That does not promote empathy or morality. I don't think Jimenez is evil, he's just selfish and petty and that can easily be exploited to do evil.

    Sure he seems to love Boo but he was also the first one who was like "let's get the hell outta here!" even as the other crewmen were like "dude, we can't just abandon potential survivors."

    So maybe Chaos isn't evil but it seems entirely too small-minded, at least as represented by Jimenez.
    That's pretty much the point actually, the series deals with the inherent problem of freedom versus order and it's why it's usually best to find a balanced middle ground as opposed to subscribing to one ideal over another. In time, you'll start to see the cracks in Law as well.

    Also I heard Devil Survivor, at least the 3DS remakes anyway, did the LNC morality thing really well. The Devil Summoner games for the PS2 and SMT3 don't have the typical moral system though and some like that.
    Maybe the second game does, but the first one actually has two sets of Law and Chaos heroes to go with the two neutral heroes your stuck with for most of the game. The issue is that in all three sets, one set of those heroes is awesome and fun and really help justify their factions, the other group are completely whiny or straight up assholes with little redeeming value and sadly it's the asshole group you're stuck with for most of the game. Of anything DS1 probably did a better job than any other entry I've played in making the Law faction actually likable and not the usual assholes we've come to known in the series.

    Devil Summoner's alignment system is a bit odd because it's more subdued and functions more for gameplay than story depending on the entry. SMT3 utilizes a new system but it's pretty much the classic system just retooled a bit and examined a bit differently. The best way to describe the Reasons of SMT3 is that they are the absolute extremes of the basic Law/Neutral/Chaos dynamic but the allies to these forces have been switched around and the game kind of has a sly theme about how the Law and Chaos factions are really no different from each other.

    But hey, this is a magical adventure I intend to experience and come to my own conclusions on what is best. I got a lot of game to go apparently and then several other games to beat as well.

    Seems you are a pretty well-informed SMT fan, WK. Hope you can keep enlightening me. Just no spoilers!@@

    Also on gameplay note, thank you for the EX Mission info. trout seems so tedious but I bet it has good rewards so....
    You should just sit back and enjoy the ride. Strange Journey isn't exactly the entry I would have started with but it's one I did enjoy thoroughly. Though I should warn you that the later Sectors take of the kiddy gloves in terms of difficulty and frustration factor.

    The EX missions certainly have their advantages, especially the way gear is more important in this game than other ones. You'll really start having fun when the alignment missions start to become more prominent and you can take more advantage of the alignment system since they tend to give you gear only Law/Chaos can use.

    My big tip for you is to find a neutral weapon (I believe it's a gun) that inflicts Stone. You would be surprised how many enemies are vulnerable to that status effect and its basically an instant death spell in this game. Even when it starts to do crap for damage the Stone effect makes it a pretty invaluable tool for wiping out mobs of enemies with little drain on your resources.

  9. #69

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    So you know what the worst part about video games is?
    The game part.

    Seriously, SJ could have the most enthralling story ever written in human history and I would be like "smurf it" because I just spent the last several hours on Ouroboros and am no closer to winning.

    Level 45 with a party of strong demons. I apparently finally went Law so I can get a big old co-op fire attack on her. The problem is not damage - it's surviving. Random-ass status effects on the whole party, frequent spamming of some insta death move and then there's the damage she can deal, which is considerable and is all full-party based as well.

    I blame myself more than the boss. For starters I've been operating a demon mill where I constantly switch in new demons after getting their Source and then immediately fuse the no longer useful demon into something new so I can get that demon's Source and so-on and so-on. Seemed to be a good strategy.
    Not so much here. I need designer demons. Just making whatever is not a good way to win and it's no longer as simple as "boss is weak to element so give new demon Source with powerful elemental attack." I need, I dunno, the actual spell that protects against Curse/Expel. I have some Stones but they run out fast. There's also that one skill that powers up co-op attacks, that would be immensely useful. And most importantly, a strong magic demon with Recovery Amp and the Medium heal full party spell. I HAD a demon like that but cheerfully pissed her away for a new fusion. As I said, I am lying in a bed of my own making.

    I did look up to see if I was under-leveled or whatever. Apparently somebody beat her at Level 42. Good for them. Although I see far too much talking about the first stage. The first stage is nothing. Sure she has regen but her attacks are trout. N Ow she can slap Bomb, Stone and Mute and Charm all on you at once.
    Having only one character capable of using items is driving me crazier than ever. I'm definitely not used to that. I try to cure some status ailments with an item but then she unleashes her huge thunder move or maybe she just insta-kills us all. As I said, I think I need to just give up and go grind. Definition of insanity is trying the same thing and expecting a different result. Well, I kinda did that for a long time now so I'm mad as a hatter. I just thought my damage output could save me....

    So yeah, what story was there in this game? All I can think about are Sources and looking for what demons have what abilities. I gotta crunch some maths, not contemplate philosophical dilemmas.
    Although I did tell Ouroboros I was siding with her enemy who "also has endless power." Made sense to me. I got a guardian angel on my side and presumably the big guy behind him so if she wants to boast about how strong demons are, I will say I have the support of something even stronger.



    Oh I have plenty of money for summoning demons but she had those skills because I "crafted" her that way. They weren't her natural abilities. Although I believe her Source has Recovery Amp....
    In any event, I just don't know how you're supposed to deal with waves of status effects in this game. That has been my real bane. Is there no way to defend against them for the demons themselves? I have a Ring to save me from Stone but the demons got trout. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and even if I had abilities to remedy all the status effects, that's still a few wasted turns.

    EDIT:

    But it figures, as soon as I post this, I win. Can you believe it was as simple as finding a monster with War Cry? Turns out when her attacks no longer are demolishing you, status effects are a bit easier to deal with.

    I wonder if all the bosses are like this though. Buff yourself or debuff them more than 3 times and they will instantly reset everything.
    Last edited by Forsaken Lover; 12-30-2016 at 11:37 PM.

  10. #70
    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    Yeah, buffing gets trickier later.

    Good luck from here on out, though. Fornax may be a Breather Level after Eridanus, but it only gets worse from here on out. The final boss on the Neutral and Law path is just complete BS

  11. #71
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    I was going to say, "welcome to MegaTen" cause it's always interesting when you reach a point and realize you have to get down and dirty and start building some customized units. It should tell you something that SJ debut the skill that inflicts heavy non-elemental group hitting damage that also lowers every stat. That's a skill you can get, and will want for obvious reasons.

    Here's a tip since you should be leveled enough to start seeing these two. Make a Rangda and a Barong eventually and try to give them some really good skills. Perhaps not now, but take a note of it. It's a SMT Tradition that these two fused together will make an excellent end game demon, though you're far too under-leveled at this point to obtain him, so just keep it in mind when you reach the final sections of the game.

    Fornax has one of my favorite EX Missions in it. Say high to Alice for me.

  12. #72

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fynn View Post
    Luster Candy is also your friend.
    I just got it from a Lechesis Source not too long ago. I'm saving it for a rally hard boss.

    So back to story.

    Jack's Squad. I firmly believe there is nothing more powerful than a kind word and a nice smile. Jack wasn't "rude" in the strictest sense but at the same time, I read everything he said in the most patently insincere tone imaginable. Like, every time he said "I wanna be good neighbors" he might as well have said "smurf you, you little bitch" instead. I don't like him very much. I was sorely tempted to say I'd sooner trust the demons but that seemed a bit excessive right now. The demons have tried to kill me, all Jack has done is be a huge jerk which was exacerbated by his putting on this huge sham of not being a jerk.

    Oh well. I went and did this stupid maze trout for him. Man it was confusing.

    You guys know about me and Ouroboros already. Ugh.

    Speaking of my alignment though, I turned Law when Ourobors boasted of having endless power. I said her opponent also has endless power. Makes sense to me - Mastema has helped me out a lot and God is apparently on my side so smurf you demons. I literally have friends in high places.

    Then "Gore" came back and then he left again. I have no idea what's going on with him.

    The three guys from way earlier are back, too. I thought maybe they were supposed to represent the alignments or something, ya know? Three guys, three alignments. One of them seemed nice enough back at the start. But nope, now they all trout on humans. I wanna know what their deal is already but I suspect it may be a while.

    Wasn't Aleph the name of one of the SMT Protagonists? I seem to recall this being talked about on some forum I frequent... I think it was discussing who the strongest protagonist is from a story perspective. I might be mis-remembering, it's been a while and I obviously have no real insight into this matter.

    Oh now, Jack's Squad are suddenly our enemies. Who could have foreseen this. Seriously though, one line by the mystery men about Arthur being a "ghost" is now seeming like it might mean something. For an emotionless AI thing, he's become very proactive and judgmental. I mean, I hate Jack's Squad as much as I'm surely supposed to but Arthur has been pretty clearly pushing us for a confrontation. About to storm their base to rescue Jimenez.

    So the Alice and the Bunny thing was weird. The demons loved Alice the real girl but they remade her as a sadistic maniac? Also I stopped her from killing the rabbit. What monster would stand there and let her do it?!

    And now I have killed the Boob Demon. Ever notice the Chaos demons are always really hideous or super sexy?

    Seriously, Mother/Tiamat was pretty easy. My new Virtue with Mortal Jihad was doing more damage than exploiting her weakness and the subsequent co-op. I know people seem to talk about Debilitate a lot but my Revolver's Cripple move just kept chipping her defense until Jihad did like 220-240 a turn.

    Back to plot. I just learned what you've been talking about, Wolf. About the demons being former nature spirits corrupted by humanity. Still, this seems like it might be something specific to this game. I dunno.

    And "Gore" continues to be vague and weird. Is he related to Louisa? They both just show up randomly and confuse me.... I just want to know where the hell Mastema has been in the last forever.

    So you might have noticed I skipped over Jimenaboo. I told him no way when he asked me to fuse him and Boo but the game made me anyway. So I want to take this opportunity to talk a bit about my understanding of Chaos so far. I likened it earlier to Sith Philosophy but I was told not to.Chaos is not supposed to be evil. It shares Sith traits like the idea that freedom is power and power is freedom but you can use that freedom to do good. But Jimenez is a jerk and selfish. He wouldn't have done all this for anyone or anything else. Chaos would seem to me to indicate he'd leave 99% of everyone else to die and have no problem with that. Plus, under such rules, what Jack's Squad was doing would be perfectly okay. Jimenez seemed to be all FOR THE DEMONS and WHAT ABOUT THE POOR DEMONS but it was a demon abusing Boo when we found him.

    Also one of the options you can say to Ouroboros about her endless power is "I want that power." Well gee, I wonder what alignment that shifts you towards.


    So what the hell is Chaos? Given it's supreme individualism, can it be anything? Jimenez is not going to think of it in the same way as some other character in some other game. Plus Even in this game, the demons have hierarchy and order and clearly willingly follow Tiamat. So...I dunno what to make of it all.

    I look forward to beating the crap out of Jimenaboo when he inevitably goes crazy.

    Oh and I let Jimenez kill Jack. I doubt it matters what you pick but I let the bastard get what was coming to him.
    Last edited by Forsaken Lover; 01-01-2017 at 03:47 AM.

  14. #74
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fynn View Post
    Luster Candy is also your friend.
    I just got it from a Lechesis Source not too long ago. I'm saving it for a rally hard boss.

    So back to story.

    Jack's Squad. I firmly believe there is nothing more powerful than a kind word and a nice smile. Jack wasn't "rude" in the strictest sense but at the same time, I read everything he said in the most patently insincere tone imaginable. Like, every time he said "I wanna be good neighbors" he might as well have said "smurf you, you little bitch" instead. I don't like him very much. I was sorely tempted to say I'd sooner trust the demons but that seemed a bit excessive right now. The demons have tried to kill me, all Jack has done is be a huge jerk which was exacerbated by his putting on this huge sham of not being a jerk.

    Oh well. I went and did this stupid maze trout for him. Man it was confusing.

    You guys know about me and Ouroboros already. Ugh.
    Ah Jack Squad. The memories... *eye twitch*

    Speaking of my alignment though, I turned Law when Ourobors boasted of having endless power. I said her opponent also has endless power. Makes sense to me - Mastema has helped me out a lot and God is apparently on my side so smurf you demons. I literally have friends in high places.
    "High places" may be a stretch for YHHW. Gabriel and Satan are pretty decent angels depending on the game of course...

    Then "Gore" came back and then he left again. I have no idea what's going on with him.
    I can tell you right now that even when it does get explained to you, you'll still probably think the same way. Gore to me is just the wacky quirky side of the team on full blast. I'm still trying to wrap my head on how he got a Tuxedo.

    The three guys from way earlier are back, too. I thought maybe they were supposed to represent the alignments or something, ya know? Three guys, three alignments. One of them seemed nice enough back at the start. But nope, now they all trout on humans. I wanna know what their deal is already but I suspect it may be a while.
    If the Wise Men are the three most fans believe them to be, it actually makes sense they wouldn't like humanity much.

    Wasn't Aleph the name of one of the SMT Protagonists? I seem to recall this being talked about on some forum I frequent... I think it was discussing who the strongest protagonist is from a story perspective. I might be mis-remembering, it's been a while and I obviously have no real insight into this matter.
    Aleph is indeed the name of the main character from SMT2, but he has no relation to Mem Aleph. Aleph is a Hebrew number associated with beginnings. Mem Aleph is basically "Mother Earth" in form.

    Oh now, Jack's Squad are suddenly our enemies. Who could have foreseen this. Seriously though, one line by the mystery men about Arthur being a "ghost" is now seeming like it might mean something. For an emotionless AI thing, he's become very proactive and judgmental. I mean, I hate Jack's Squad as much as I'm surely supposed to but Arthur has been pretty clearly pushing us for a confrontation. About to storm their base to rescue Jimenez.
    Arthur has basically been developing its own sense of consciousness by this point.

    So the Alice and the Bunny thing was weird. The demons loved Alice the real girl but they remade her as a sadistic maniac? Also I stopped her from killing the rabbit. What monster would stand there and let her do it?!
    Well if you know the folktale behind the rabbit, you might let her do it, but I would agree it would still be messed up.

    Alice is a long running tradition in the series dating back to SMT1. She's basically a ghost with overwhelming magical power and may or may not (the series likes to be coy about this) associated with the Alice of a certain wonderland fame.

    And now I have killed the Boob Demon. Ever notice the Chaos demons are always really hideous or super sexy?
    Heaven has it's fair share of hotties and monsters....





    Seriously, Mother/Tiamat was pretty easy. My new Virtue with Mortal Jihad was doing more damage than exploiting her weakness and the subsequent co-op. I know people seem to talk about Debilitate a lot but my Revolver's Cripple move just kept chipping her defense until Jihad did like 220-240 a turn.
    Glad to see you're getting the hang of the gameplay.

    Back to plot. I just learned what you've been talking about, Wolf. About the demons being former nature spirits corrupted by humanity. Still, this seems like it might be something specific to this game. I dunno.
    It's emphasized a lot in this title, but it also happens in the original SMT1 as well.

    And "Gore" continues to be vague and weird. Is he related to Louisa? They both just show up randomly and confuse me.... I just want to know where the hell Mastema has been in the last forever.
    Plotting could be the answer to all three actually. No, Gore isn't exactly related to Louisa, he's technically working for Chaos at the moment but not very effectively for reasons.

    So you might have noticed I skipped over Jimenaboo. I told him no way when he asked me to fuse him and Boo but the game made me anyway. So I want to take this opportunity to talk a bit about my understanding of Chaos so far. I likened it earlier to Sith Philosophy but I was told not to.Chaos is not supposed to be evil. It shares Sith traits like the idea that freedom is power and power is freedom but you can use that freedom to do good. But Jimenez is a jerk and selfish. He wouldn't have done all this for anyone or anything else. Chaos would seem to me to indicate he'd leave 99% of everyone else to die and have no problem with that. Plus, under such rules, what Jack's Squad was doing would be perfectly okay. Jimenez seemed to be all FOR THE DEMONS and WHAT ABOUT THE POOR DEMONS but it was a demon abusing Boo when we found him.
    If you sided more with Chaos and Jiminez, you'd learn that what he likes about the demons is not just their freedom but the fact they are more honest. The lack of rules and strength of will is valued by them tends to appeal to Jiminez. Bugaboo is also an oddity because he's technically not a real demon, he's a human/demon hybrid created for experiments. As a mercenary, Jiminez has been used and seen the worst in people and that made him only want to look out for himself, but I feel he has a connection to Bugaboo because he sees himself in it. It helps the guy saved his life a few times, as well as Chaos oddly enough seems to value friendship more than Law and Neutral.

    Also one of the options you can say to Ouroboros about her endless power is "I want that power." Well gee, I wonder what alignment that shifts you towards.
    Well not all questions are going to be thought-provoking.

    So what the hell is Chaos? Given it's supreme individualism, can it be anything? Jimenez is not going to think of it in the same way as some other character in some other game. Plus Even in this game, the demons have hierarchy and order and clearly willingly follow Tiamat. So...I dunno what to make of it all.

    I look forward to beating the crap out of Jimenaboo when he inevitably goes crazy.

    Oh and I let Jimenez kill Jack. I doubt it matters what you pick but I let the bastard get what was coming to him.
    Chaos tends to always appeal to the weak who wish to be powerful, it's an underlying theme of all of the Chaos heroes that feel like victims and thus strive to have greater power so they never have to feel powerless again. The demons associated with it tend to either be from more ancient religions, and were often demonized by later religions. The other half is filled by Lucifer and his cronies who are just going out of their way to stop Law. You're mainly dealing with the first half in SJ.

    Chaos itself tends to involve absolute freedom even at the cost of suffering and "might makes right". They feel people should be unrestricted and allowed to do what they want, but also understand that one needs power to do so. Thus the strong have absolute freedom, but the path at least allows everyone the chance to obtain it, even if that does mean some people may never have the opportunity to have that kind of power.

    One of the more interesting things about SMTIV is that it's the first game to give you a chance to really explore and see a world run by Chaos and Law.

  15. #75

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    So Wolf, you said you wouldn't start with SJ. Do you not like the game? Which is your favorite SMT title?


    Hey, I am agreeing with Jimenez over Zelenin for once. This isn't right. We should have headed over there instantly and painted the walls red. Where's my Renegade option game.

    So...this game is not very subtle. I mean, it never was but holy trout. Jimenez is now actually a demon and Zelenin is actually an angel. You might as well have tattooed CHAOS on his forehead and LAW on hers.

    Angel Zelenin: How do I look?

    Me: Meh.

    Seriously, one of the options is "No problems here. " What the hell. I picked "awe-inspiring." "Beautiful" was another but I neglected that because while beautiful doesn't have to be in a vulgar sensel, I didn't want to take any chances.

    Maybe it's the music.




    Obviously out-of-universe reasoning but it always does leave me feeling reverential. In-universe, I imagine my PC is just struck by the majesty of the angels.

    It is good to see Mastema again.


    Apparently he's been busy building an army. You'd think God could just whip one up in a thought b ut guess not. While we're on that topic though, ever notice how in these series that mix all sorts of mythologies, Christianity seems to come out on top? Yahweh and Lucifer are top dogs here and I remember in Supernatural Lucifer basically killed several pantheons in one episode. People tried to justify with some BS D&D reasoning of "well, their power level is determined by their followers and many of these gods were from dead religions." Except Lucifer killed some Hindu god or goddess IIRC so what the smurf. Why does the Patrick Stewart head and Lucy get to be above all the other mythologies beings in this setting?

    Getting back on topic, is there any reason at all to side with the horrible monsters that have repeatedly tried to kill you for several hours over the nice guy here who has saved your life and been nothing but cool?

    This is reminding me so much of NieR. No, there is no argument. The monsters are monsters and need to die. Father Nier did nothing wrong.

    So...Grus. Jesus Christ, never again. You guys have any idea how long I was lost in there? Someone told me back when I started this game that I should just look up the maps for all the later dungeons. I said "nope, Imma do it myself and be awesome." Well, after a few hours of doing it myself, I caved. Turns out, B3F's maze has several staircases leading up. I mean, I found 4, I figured that was all of them. But nope, there was another one that led me to a rare forma that let me progress to Maya. So I AM SORRY, I am a trout gamer but what sin covers"thinks teleporter puzles are a good idea"? Whoever thought of this crap is terrible. Everyone talked about Sector E, I never heard trout about this dungeon and its love of making you go through the whole dungeon several smurfing times. I'm suddenly nostalgic for Final Fantasy II's monster closets. That was still a better idea than this.

    Anyway, I beat Maya on one try. Bit of a joke, really. Pretty much only did single target damage attacks. I think I might just hold onto the Revolver because Stone is awesome and Cripple seems to work well on bosses.

    We interrupt this regularly scheduled cutscene to bring you...

    Three Wise Man: We are the Three Wise Man and the Earth will soon be destroyed just like it was before.

    Me: Yeah I knew that second part. But who exactly are you guys?

    We interrupt this interruption to bring you....

    Louisa: NO, let the world be destroyed for freedom!

    Wait, I still don't know who you are either...

    And then the cutscene was over.

    Well it is nice that they "explained everything" and by explained everything they didn't explain trout.

    This game is starting to wear on me though. Even good games can outstay their welcome. I can tell because I just have no interest in grinding for forma to make new equipment or items. I really should be doing that though. I'm Level 60 and I'm worried about how I might be way too weak.

    I thought about going through the next dungeon and stuff before posting this but...ehhhh. As I said, starting to get burnt out. How much more game is there?

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