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Thread: FL Plays the Persona Series

  1. #226
    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    I'd say play 4. The gameplay is just as solid as in 3, and it's really part of the appeal. I definitely wouldn't skip on it if you're enjoying this series, as the thing has so much choice going on that watching it on Youtube just feels like a waste.

    Also, if you're interested, it could be cool to follow this order:

    P3 > P4 > P1 > P2IS > P2EP > P5

    But this is mostly if you're interested in the series' roots. 1 and the two 2s don't have social links and play more like traditional dungeon crawlers, but they're still very interesting, with the 2 duology having arguably the best plot in the entire series (I've yet to play EP so I can't really comment on that notion, but Innocent Sin was definitely some good trout while P1 is an acquired taste but definitely worth checking out).

    There's also the issue that P5 follows the same formula as P3/4 BUT also reintroduces some elements from the previous games (demon negotiations, more elements, some visual cues) that will probably make it feel much more like a culmination of the entire series if you know all the other games first. Fun fact: all Persona games take place in the same continuity, even if call-backs from 3/4 to 1/2 are minimal at best.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fynn View Post
    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. While I can definitely see the point you're trying to make, seeing those events first hand didn't really give me that impression, and it all genuinely came across as forced to me. And while I definitely agree that there is room for conflict, I think it was handled poorly, and could have been poignant and believable with better writing. Sadly, I feel that it didn't work. (SPOILER)I also think the point behind Erebus is pretty stupid and only exists to complicated the cosmology a bit more without really adding anything to the message. Whether Nyx represents humanity's will to die or Erebus does, the point of the main plot remains unchanged. Erebus really wasn't a necessary addition as it doesn't really add or detract from the MC's sacrifice - it's just added there so you can have a final boss in your epilogue thing.
    (SPOILER)You are correct in that Erebus doesn't change the meaning of the sacrifice. It neither adds nor subtracts from what is already there.

    But, I still appreciate it for the clarity it brought. It showed us (and the others) his Answer. What he learned about life, and death. Why he was able to overcome Nyx.


    That ending is basically the only thing I like about The Answer.

    Everything else is forced, out-of-character nonsense.
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  3. #228
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    • Former Cid's Knight

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    If you enjoyed P3's gameplay, then I would say jump to P4 and then P5. Personally, I would jump straight to P5 if possible and just watch the original anime adaption of P4 because it brings together everything good about P4's story and cast. Course I'm a little bias...

  4. #229

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    So I played Persona 5.

    Long rant short: I didn't like it. I consider it worse than 3 and it in no way is even close to Persona 4 Golden which is still the single best Atlus game I've ever played and one of the best JRPGs of all time.

    P5 really thought it had some great hot takes on the state of the world. Then it blamed all of the problems in the world on "troutty adults." Hard-hitting social commentary from a really dumb 13-year-old!

    Now if this was just Ryuji being his typical moronic self, that be one thing. But Sae literally had to apologize for all of adult-dom and promise to make amends.

    The Phantom Thieves had nothing on the Investigation Team in terms of synergy or likability, probably because the plot and its oh-so-deep ideas on society were the only thing that mattered. The Phantom Thieves never stopped talking about being Phantom Thieves and social reform and blah blah blah. The Investigation Team, outside of when they were saving each other or trying to solve the murder, were normal high school kids. There is so much stuff in P4G dedicated just to "slice of life" and making you love these people like your family. The Phantom Thieves don't have even a quarter of that.

    Haru was the best party member and she got introduced way too late. Also the best characters are all adults. Kawakami my waifu, Yoshida and Takemi.

    What really sucks is this game doesn't even have that good of a soundtrack. The game really should have just ended with Shido's Cruiser since it felt like a real climax and it had the best music in the game.





    So yeah. What P5 has taught me isn't any ground-breaking truths about the world. But it has taught me a lesson I should have learned from Mass Effect: Andromeda.

    Never buy a game digitally just because it's part of a franchise you like. You can't re-sell or give away digital games. You're stuck with them forever. You've thrown your money into a blackhole.

  5. #230
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    • Former Cid's Knight

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    I... cannot really agree with you, on any of your points.

  6. #231

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    I... cannot really agree with you, on any of your points.
    So you agree with the game's idea that THOSE ROTTEN ADULTS are the source of all the problems in the world?

    Believe me, I know I'm in the minority that thinks this game is a piece of crap. But at least it looks like some people recognize P4 did the social dynamics better. I cannot even fathom how anybody could prefer the Phantom Thieves to the Investigation Team. The IT had infinitely more time and care put into setting up their dynamics and friendship than the PT did. That's just an objective fact.

  7. #232
    Let's get ready to bumble Vincent, Thunder God's Avatar
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    Overall I tend to agree that P4 was stronger in most ways (except for dungeon design). Even though I enjoyed P3P when I first played it P4G was what really blew me away. That being said I do think there is some great music in P5, the art design is pretty spectacular etc. But I would agree that in terms of the story and characters P4 is probably the best. And it definitely had a lot more warmth than P5. Maybe I'm just not the right kind of person to enjoy the darker aspects of most SMT games. I've played a lot of them, and enjoy some elements, but nothing has grabbed me as much as P4.

  8. #233
    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    Haven't played 5 yet, but for me, as the years go by, Persona 4's cast and story feels weaker and weaker. Especially now that I'm playing 2 and can see how it deconstructs the main themes of 4, despite the fact tgat it was made years before it

  9. #234

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fynn View Post
    Haven't played 5 yet, but for me, as the years go by, Persona 4's cast and story feels weaker and weaker. Especially now that I'm playing 2 and can see how it deconstructs the main themes of 4, despite the fact tgat it was made years before it
    It deconstructs "Be yourself and don't let society make you feel like trout"?

    P2 must be the Law route of Persona.

  10. #235
    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    Not really

    It's about how society doesn't always want the truth and you trying to make it fqce it might be not just difficul but even make matters worse. Falling bwck on the power of friejdship is outright punished compsred to dealing with your interjal trout on your own. And then, in the end, not only does the power of friendship not fix everything - sometimes clinging to it hard is what makes everything much worse for everyone around.

    P2 says friends are important, sure, and that being your true self is importand, but also acknowledges tge limitations on those things a bit more than P4 does and actyally carries a much more antu-collectivist message than it. If anything, it's the Chaos path.

    that's why I say it's A deconstruction. It takes a closer, more groundedlook at some ideas from P4 that are handled in a manner taht is very appealibg, though perhaps with a bit of a disregard of reality

  11. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fynn View Post
    Not really

    It's about how society doesn't always want the truth and you trying to make it fqce it might be not just difficul but even make matters worse. Falling bwck on the power of friejdship is outright punished compsred to dealing with your interjal trout on your own. And then, in the end, not only does the power of friendship not fix everything - sometimes clinging to it hard is what makes everything much worse for everyone around.

    P2 says friends are important, sure, and that being your true self is importand, but also acknowledges tge limitations on those things a bit more than P4 does and actyally carries a much more antu-collectivist message than it. If anything, it's the Chaos path.

    that's why I say it's A deconstruction. It takes a closer, more groundedlook at some ideas from P4 that are handled in a manner taht is very appealibg, though perhaps with a bit of a disregard of reality
    You're referring to stuff like when you go back to help Lisa when she's dealing with the fact she can't actually speak English and all the racist assumptions made by her friends? I did that but i guess I wasn't supposed to. But that's macho shounen garbage. You should always go and support people. Doubly so for Lisa because she clearly loved Tatsuya and I wasn't going to abandon her. And that's what the choices were. Stay or go support Lisa.

  12. #237
    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    Except if you choose not to help her,she shows she's perfectly capableof doing it on her own and grows far more as a person as a result. and those xhoices for your party members aren't even half of the deconstructive aspect. The message in this particular instance is that handholding will get you nowhere. As someone who's been topsychotherapy, I can see a lot of parallels - the therapist asks questions but ultimatelu, you have to learn how to pull yourself up.

  13. #238

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    I don't think it's handholding to have your first instinct be to help.

    Looking up the other choices, I also didn't get Maya's second Persona because I didn't force the woman with the fear of fire to go walk through a blazing inferno. For smurf's sake, Maya's fear of fire is 100% valid and is born of horrible trauma. We've seen how she seizes up and freaks out because of it. Telling her to go save that girl on her own is wrong on every level.

  14. #239
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    I... cannot really agree with you, on any of your points.
    So you agree with the game's idea that THOSE ROTTEN ADULTS are the source of all the problems in the world?

    Believe me, I know I'm in the minority that thinks this game is a piece of crap. But at least it looks like some people recognize P4 did the social dynamics better. I cannot even fathom how anybody could prefer the Phantom Thieves to the Investigation Team. The IT had infinitely more time and care put into setting up their dynamics and friendship than the PT did. That's just an objective fact.
    It surprises me that someone who could post this thread, would miss the central point of P5, which is simply that if you want the world to be a better place, you have to have the courage to stand up and do it, and not simply wait for someone else to come along and fix the world. Change begins with the individual. There's a reason why the Deadly Sin associated with (SPOILER)the collective unconsciousness of humanity is Sloth. It ties back into the game focusing so much time talking about social media and how the Phantom Thieves were trending, not because it's simply a modern element of society, but it's also a commentary on it's negative impact on society and how social media blinds us into thinking that commenting on some hot button issue deludes us into thinking we're "helping" when we're simply being a spectator.

    Yes, it's the fault of adults, but that's what you would expect if you were a teenager with no say on social matters and being mistreated by a corrupt system that benefits the few at the exploitation of those who can't do anything to really better there lives. It's especially poignant since Japan is very hierarchical society and it's expected that the adults look out for the next generation, and instead the game has them only looking out for themselves. It's something I feel in my own country as my parents generation is certainly more interested in protecting their own self-interest than leave anything for my generation or the one after mine. So I would say P5's themes hit pretty hard and close to home.

    The P4 cast got more screen time showing they were best buds, that I can agree on. Where I disagree is whether that was actually important to the plot and something that helped the game. For me, I don't feel like it did. P4 was too much "slice of life" and not enough "murder mystery". I don't care that Kanji is going to get another comical scene of himself tripping over his words as he confronts Naoto once again about his mixed feelings, or listening to Yusuke ramble on about the MC being his partner and only friend for the umpteenth time. I wanted to solve an intricate murder mystery, not see what the Scooby Gang does on their days off. So damn straight I love the fact that P5's cast stuck to their objective and didn't waste my time with Ski Trips and school festivals, and instead focused on actually trying to make the world a better place.

    I liked the fact the MC had a moment of story and gameplay integration by having him be upfront about how he was using his social links as a means to an end. Hell I appreciated the fact the game drove us away from the typical student shenanigans of P3 and 4 and allowed us to focus more on the outcasts of society. Listening to your classmates opening gossip about you and treat you like dirt instead of being the Mary Sue the past protagonists have been was pretty damn refreshing.

    I mean P4's plot is kind of boring because you spend most of it just running in place. Your party isn't closer to solving the case from stopping the third victim as they were to the second to last one. Almost all of them stop questioning the TV world whereas P5 keeps the existence of the app and the cognitive world as a constant mystery. The party doesn't even try to actually make a real investigation outside of the plan to just catch the criminal in the act, and in the end, the real criminal has a patsy so their one plan was actually not going to help them. I just kind of kept waiting for the story to go somewhere and it never really does. Even the kind of phoned in "Full Moon" bosses from P3 had an in-game to them within the story so even if it became routine petty quickly, you still felt like the party was advancing towards something.

    To me P5 spend an adequate amount of time building up the cast and their relationship, but it wasn't there relationship that was important. In fact P5 largely avoids the hokey "friendship is magic speech" and the real test of the main characters faith in his comrades deals with the culmination of the investigation into the Phantom Thieves. Hell I appreciate the fact that the ending deals with the characters trying resolve (SPOILER)the main characters Juvenal Record issue by actually going out and getting the word out to people and become civically active to undo an injustice. It ties in with the games central theme of "doing, not talking, to invoke change" and I felt it was a more heartfelt friendship moment than watching the cast of P4 do a third running gag about how none of the girls can cook. I mean I get it, the P4 cast likes each other, can we get back to solving a supernatural serial killer case?

    This is not to say that I feel P4 didn't have it's strengths, or strong messages, but for me, the heavy handed slice of life element eventually bored me. P3 did a better job of balancing the student stuff while also keeping you invested in a dark conspiracy about the Midnight Hour and the Shadows. Likewise, I enjoyed the fact P5 was a series of escalations as your small team of thieves begin to make a major impact on society and the social aspect really felt more like your character spending time to make contacts to help him with his goals as opposed to just doing stuff on his off time. I ultimately just prefer the more narrow focus P5 provided and frankly, I liked P5s cast way more than P4s. In fact P4 only ranks slightly higher than P1s for me as I found most of the cast uninteresting or grating and I feel less time on "friendship is the best thing ever" could have saved them from some of those mixed feelings I have for them.

    As for P2 versus P4, I agree with Fynn that P2 is largely a deconstruction on the whole "power of friendship" spiel. At least the first game does, but that's because P2 had a real villain who was pretty genre savvy and knew how to exploit it for his own benefit. P2 also had minor message of "adults are useless" before the second half completely subverts it, and it's the adults that ultimately set everything right. P4 is a typical anime plot where believing in yourself and your friends is enough to make the impossible possible, which is frankly a dime a dozen in this medium alone. That is why P4 is not as special to me, especially since I feel the real world is a bit more complicated compared to the overly idealistic game. It's why I like the fact P2 makes choosing to let your comrades deal with their issues is the right choice because while it's great to have friends who will back you up, it's important to also be self-sufficient and not drag other people into your own baggage, especially when it's dealing with things only you who can resolve. Oddly, P4 kind of did this as well since the only thing the party did was prevent the Shadow from killing their other self when they were denied. It is still up to the character to resolve their own internal conflict.

  15. #240
    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover View Post
    I don't think it's handholding to have your first instinct be to help.

    Looking up the other choices, I also didn't get Maya's second Persona because I didn't force the woman with the fear of fire to go walk through a blazing inferno. For smurf's sake, Maya's fear of fire is 100% valid and is born of horrible trauma. We've seen how she seizes up and freaks out because of it. Telling her to go save that girl on her own is wrong on every level.
    She herself offers to do it on her own

    The decisions really come at a point where the characters have the opportunity to get over their issues, and they want to do it. Of course, they'll accept your help, since it's the easier way out and part of them wishes for that to happen, but if you do step in, you kind of rob them of the opportunity that might not come up again for them. So it's really the best choice for them to leave it to them because helping them at that point isn't really help in the long run. And this is how it deconstructs friendship being the solution, among others - sometimes what a friend really needs to do is take a backseat.

    Also, shout out to Maya who is, as far as I'm aware, the only person in the entire series to just outright deny her shadow self and win. This was always interesting to me and I think this partly stems from the fact that she's the adult of the group. She is actually very aware of the issue and probably realizes she resents the other party members for what happened to a degree, but she's already actively working to be better than that and is ultimately too happy to finally be reunited with her childhood crew to really give that voice the time of day. Her reaction is basically "oh my God stop whining already" and I love it. Maya is the best.

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