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Thread: FL Plays the Persona Series

  1. #286

  2. #287

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fynn View Post
    Guido is actually Takahisa Kandori, the main villain from P1.
    I gathered that from what they said but I still don't understand his purpose in this game.

  3. #288
    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    I still don't know either, but I haven't had a chance to play since the weekend. But I heard Nanjo's route deals with him more.

  4. #289
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    • Former Cid's Knight

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    Kandori exists for Nanjou's route mostly but he does appear in Elly and the Jpan only Tatsuya episode in the PSP version. Nyalarthotep was actually his Persona in Persona 1, and it's heavily implied that he was actually goading him into doing everything effectively making him the villain of the first two entries in the series. He's more of a treat for P1 fans to be honest but he actually gets some good characterization in the sequel.

    Yes, Philemon is the first Super Boss in the series and starts the whole "battle a good guy associated with the Velvet Room" schlick the series has going for it. He also has a counter if you try to cheat and beat him with Armegeddon like Elizabeth and Margaret.

  5. #290

    Colbert

    (SPOILER)
    I wonder if this has any meaning but I am like 90% positive one of Chizuru's battle quotes is the same thing a Rangda will say in Nocturne. I can only vaguely guess at how to write it... "Ooh dobla keem!" is how it sounds to me.

    The hardest boss fight all game has been by far the "Metal Trio", due solely to Metal Jun's move that puts all sorts of status effects on the entire party. The worst of it though was that Question status effect that makes you do...whatever. It's like the Joker status effect ie. total bulltrout. Point is, when my entire party is suddenly Furious or Sleep or Question mark, you lose.

    I won on my fourth or so attempt when Jun didn't even use the move before I killed him.


    So I was kind of afraid Torifune was the end of the game. I completed the map for the place and was like "I'll feel really stupid if I went through all that and didn't even use any of the great cards I got." Namely, I have two Megidolaeon cards and decided I should at least use one of them just in case this was the end. I put it on Isis, the Persona with the strongest magic stat I have. But now it's looking like there will be a bit more and I'm wondering just how strong I'll get.

    Ever since they became available I've been eyeing those Mu Continent Personas. I have 2.5 million Yen and I'm looking especially hard at Satan but 50,000 Coins... Plus I did buy the other Personas (and then immediately reloaded) just to try and check them out but Laksmi is Level 71 and the Eye Patch one is 81 (IIRC) so I guess Satan is 91. Now I have no idea how Persona levels work in this game because I'm never as high a level as they are when I first summon them but I still need to be in the ballpark. MAYBE I'll get to Level 71 Laksmi but Level 81, let alone 91??! No effin' way, not in this game. I still remember how tedious level grinding in Nocturne was and that was a game with a good battle system. The problem was that enemies peaked at such a relatively low level that if you wanted Metatron or the other high-90s Demons, you were forced to fight nothing fights for eternity in the Fifth Kalpa or at the top of the final dungeon, gaining a pathetic amount of EXP for a long, long time. But the point is, that game was actually fun. Can you imagine level grinding to the 90s with P2's battle system? Just shoot me now. It still be less painful and terrifying.

  6. #291
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    • Former Cid's Knight

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    I don't know, I didn't really have a hard time doing it for Innocent Sin, I ran a Lucifer/Satan duo for that game. Honestly, I've never had much of a problem getting close to max levels in these games. Though in the case of the Personas, I think you only need to be within five levels of the persona to use it in P2.

    Also, that boss is considered to be one of the hardest in the duology if not for the status effect, then also the instant kill spell they bring. There is another fight that's pretty bad, unless you get the Ancestral Personas, which most people will not get on a first playthrough without a guide, though thankfully, that boss isn't so much as difficult as incredible tedious. It's actually easier to go into the fight with things that reflect it's magic back at cause it's faster than your own damage output.

  7. #292

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    I swear you and Fynn are the only people in existence who seem to actually like the P2 battle system. I mean, you have to like it a lot if you did that much grinding.

    I can endure it but loving it? I comfortably finished IS at Level 60. You're telling me you ran around in Xibalba back and forth for hundreds of fights to gain 30 levels? I can't even begin to comprehend it.

  8. #293
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    • Former Cid's Knight

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover View Post
    I swear you and Fynn are the only people in existence who seem to actually like the P2 battle system. I mean, you have to like it a lot if you did that much grinding.

    I can endure it but loving it? I comfortably finished IS at Level 60. You're telling me you ran around in Xibalba back and forth for hundreds of fights to gain 30 levels? I can't even begin to comprehend it.
    More like I spent that time leveling in the Abandoned Factory trying to get the Legendary Weapons and the material items needed for some of the more powerful Persona. Honestly, the games have enough side content that you can gain quite a bit of levels running those errands and not focus on leveling. Not to mention that if you abuse Nonr's Blink Fusion Spell (Skuld, Verdandi, and Urd required) you can get a chance to double your XP making this easier.

  9. #294

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover View Post
    I swear you and Fynn are the only people in existence who seem to actually like the P2 battle system. I mean, you have to like it a lot if you did that much grinding.

    I can endure it but loving it? I comfortably finished IS at Level 60. You're telling me you ran around in Xibalba back and forth for hundreds of fights to gain 30 levels? I can't even begin to comprehend it.
    More like I spent that time leveling in the Abandoned Factory trying to get the Legendary Weapons and the material items needed for some of the more powerful Persona. Honestly, the games have enough side content that you can gain quite a bit of levels running those errands and not focus on leveling. Not to mention that if you abuse Nonr's Blink Fusion Spell (Skuld, Verdandi, and Urd required) you can get a chance to double your XP making this easier.
    So was ther more to that Abandoned Factory than the one room? I looked around for a few minutes but then left because I saw no point except it was the one area they didn't close off. Figured it was for mild card grinding purposes.

    And weapons are worthless in these games, I don't even know why they exist. This Jewelry dude in EP wanted me to craft stuff for 1,000,000 Yen or whatever and I was like nope because it's a waste of money. I am using whatever weapons they started with or found and I haven't bought a single piece of armor all game.

    Armor was at least useful in IS but weapons have always been pointless.

    So you actually enjoy this this brain-melting tedium and repetitiveness?

  10. #295

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    Back when I was talking about who you choose to be Tatsuya's love, Iread that he was in love with Maya. EP kinda really digs at that but Shadow Katsuya seems to confirm it because when it says Katsuya is in love with Maya, we see both Maya's and Tatsuya's faces as they look shocked. I never really got any sense all game that Katsuya loved her, though.

    Also this Tatsuya sucks so who cares if he loves Maya or not.

    I figured it out! I know why Nu Persona has done so much better than the old ones. Persona 3-5 didn't have anything like these dumb questions. I believed in Katsuya because why the hell wouldn't you. He is nothing if not loving and devoted to Tatsuya. But with Ulala, I got it "wrong" because I said Ulala ha dfound herself. After all, we did this trout 50 hours ago. She dealt with her Joker. But sticking up for my friend and telling the evil jackass disguised as her off is "wrong."


    There are a million reasons to want to shoot Nyarly but his "he'll never be yours. HE'S MINE!" taunt was not one of them. Plus it's just kind of transparent that shooting is the wrong option. Even so, if his "prompt" had been almost anything else, I would have shot. But the jab they gave him is just...insultingly weak and I'll touch more on that when I finish the game and write my overall thoughts.



    i do have to say, the final boss fight was refreshingly challenging.Thank God I kept Maya witH isis on all the time or else we'd be smurfed when he used that move that seals off everyone's Personas. That nearly stopped my heart, used up a Soma 'cuz we needed all oru SP refilled anyway and also I was kinda really worried. Really though, even with her physical weakness, as long as you keep Tetrakarn on her, the guy just kept killing himself with his big physical move. (the names of every attack go by way too fast for me to ever read them) Like, the only people whoever did damage against the boss were Maya, Tatsuya and Nyarly himself. Also it's a really cool touch they gave Tatsuya new dialogue for when he uses Apollo's Nova Cyther against Nyarly.

    now...let's rap about EP. First and foremost, as a sequel to a game I deeply loved, I was pretty dramatically underwhelmed. Am I to take it that the Eternal Punishment world is the "real" one? Maybe even the one that the late Personas take place in?

    Furthermore, is the "Innocent Sin" title supposed to refer to Tatsuya refusing to forget? I always thought it was about what the kids did to Maya. But really, the two titles only fit based on the sin being Tatsuya's.

    Long before I ever played these games I was told by quite a few people tht Eternal Punishment was better. However, more recently I have encountered at least one or two people who echo my feelings that Innocent Sin needed no sequel. Eternal Punishment is a huge retread os a better game but with inferior characters and an inferior plot. The whole story of The Joker and In Laqetti and even the Nazis fit together better than this New World Order stuff. Like, what was supposed to be Chizuru's character? She and another non-character (Guido) are prime antagonists for this game. Tetsuzou is no better. They all might as well be that random general that became "immortal." (what was the point of that anyway?)

    Basically EP wanted to recreate IS' tale of a town gone mad and swept up by "rumors" which lead to some sort of cult-y organization destroying everything. Only its cult was less interesting and detailed and thus the descent of Sumaru City doesn't feel as genuine. Also there's the fact we've been here, done this. They tried to insert a twist but the formula is the same. You can say this was intentional and I respond with "duh." It's still not good.

    While we're on teh topic of artistic choices that just don't work, MC Tatsuya in Innocent Sin/Talking Maya vs. MC Maya/Talking Tatsuya. Clearly they wanted this to be this way for story purposes and it is indeed intriguing. The problem is none of the writing works at all. EP Tatsuya is deeply unlikable. If I had just played this game like people had to do back in the day, I'd wonder who the hell this egotistical, moody chump was.

    However the real victim is Maya who has been transformed into some demure waif. While never as "rough" as Yukino, she was also not nearly as "girly" as Lisa. In EP, every time we see that picture of Maya with her hand to her mouth, I just want to scream. That expression is so weak and pitiful and screams "OH MY I'M A WOMAN AND THIS IS A DISTRESSING SITUATION!" I think this screenshot sums it up well:



    Nyarly has killed numerous people and ruined the lives of even more people than that. He wants to destroy every world he can. But in spite of all that, the thing that really will get Maya mad at him is that he is mean to Tatsuya. I guess she's supposed to be madly in love with him just like the Suou brothers are madly in love with her because she's A WOMAN. WOMAN WOMAN WOMAN WOMAN. And Tatsuya chose Lisa, you goddam chumps.


    Now..let's be positive! Gameplay is 100% better than Innocent Sin. I liked the confrontations with the Shadows. I was more attached to Katsuya there than I was all game. Um...final boss fight was nice and intense. Oh and Ellie! Best character in this game.

    So apparently to fight Philemon I would have to play through this game one more time at leas?T Hahahahahahaha But yeah, I am even struggling to come up with really memorable or good moments in the game... Oh I liked seeing Tatsuya Sudou again. "This Side" Sudou was influenced by Nyarly according to Tatsuya so I guess that's where people get the idea that the "voices" might have been nearly back in IS, too. Seems very probable. I'm okay with that. Still the best villain in the game. Nyarly went out like a punk after we beat his ass. Although...I guess the EP cast are better heroes since they actaully beat him. Bleh.

    Current Persona Games Ranking:

    Persona 4 Golden > P2: Innocent Sin [huge gap] > Persona 3 FES [mildly large gap] > P2: Eternal Punishment > Persona 5

    edit:

    Unrelated to everything I typed before, was looking at some YT videos of people playing Innocent SIN PSP. I played the PSX version but in the PSP clip I'm watching, they used Dashing Strike, a fusion spell with Lisa and Michelle that was multi-hit for over a thousand damage. I never unlocked anything like that when I played the games. Maybe it's in the original too but ijust never found it. Point is, damage always semed pretty limited in tehse games. This is EP talk but at 99 Tec with Makakaja'd Megidolaeon, I could only do 500-600. Doing over a thousand is mindboggling to me, especially since I always got the impression physical attacks were nerfed for you. My Wong Long for Katsuya only had a "medium" strength physical attack (Violent Rage).

    Also there are Fusion spells that are basically the equivalent of Matarukaja and so-on. I wish I had found those, too.
    Last edited by Forsaken Lover; 10-20-2017 at 03:52 PM.

  11. #296
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover View Post
    So was ther more to that Abandoned Factory than the one room? I looked around for a few minutes but then left because I saw no point except it was the one area they didn't close off. Figured it was for mild card grinding purposes.

    And weapons are worthless in these games, I don't even know why they exist. This Jewelry dude in EP wanted me to craft stuff for 1,000,000 Yen or whatever and I was like nope because it's a waste of money. I am using whatever weapons they started with or found and I haven't bought a single piece of armor all game.

    Armor was at least useful in IS but weapons have always been pointless.

    So you actually enjoy this this brain-melting tedium and repetitiveness?
    I don't consider it to be too repetitive since I'm building towards something like leveling new Personas or unlocking new Fusion Spells. I liked the customization options the game gave me and trying to build an optimal team, so I never really felt the system was tedious. It's helped that I also have the contact system to alleviate the boredom of constant battle and I like having the option to resolve conflict in other ways than knocking everyone out.

    Yes, the Abandoned Factory is IS and the Bomb Shelter in EP have more to them. They are an optional dungeon that opens up as you play through the game, letting you have easy access to older demons for leveling or more likely,getting Tarot Cards from since the game makes most dungeons one time deals. Eventually you can start meeting Rumor Demons in these areas which are optional bosses you can acquire special material cards or items from. You can also spread the rumors to get the Legendary Weapons or get the special spells for certain demons. This is the only way to get some of the games better Personas. In EP, once you complete the game twice and seen both Eriko and Nanjo's scenarios, you can unlock the room where you can fight Philemon who is considered to be one of the hardest Optional Fights in the Persona series behind the original Elizabeth fight in Persona 3. He also starts the whole "I'll kill you if you try to cheese me with the ultimate Fusion Spell".

    Congratulations on finishing up EP, glad you kind of liked it, now you only need to play P1 and some of the side games to complete the Persona series.

    Officially, Maya doesn't love either of the Suou boys, and I honestly feel it's obvious Katsuya had a crush on Maya from his dialogue in-between story missions. Her connection to Tatsuya has more to do with the Deja Vu element of him. She feels connected to him but doesn't understand why because she doesn't really have her memories from the Other Side.

    Yeah EP is technically the official timeline of Persona where the later games take place though it could be just as likely they take place in a third unknown timeline. Still, P3 makes some pretty clear references to being in the same world where characters from P1 and P2 still exist through the Trish Reports on TV. We know it can't take place in IS since the world pretty much ended in that one.

    As for the villains, you get more info about them if you play both scenarios and keep your ears open to NPC dialogue. The Samurai Head is also a bit of a cultural thing, because Japan has several former samurai or warlords who have been deified and considered guardian spirits of parts of Japan, Masakado is probably the most infamous of these figures, so Sumaru is a reference to this type of thing which I always found to be kind of neat.

    I never felt like EP was simply about "Rumors becoming reality making people go crazy" which is really more of the first game, this one is more about Deja Vu and the idea of their existing other worlds and other versions of you, which I found really intriguing. The Rumor element is played up in the first third of the game but once Tatusya gets more involved, you realize what's really going on and your party is simply trapped in a rerun that they need to avert before they repeat what happened in IS. I always felt it was a clever way of going about it and I enjoyed seeing the differences between both realities.

    With that said, most people agree with you that Maya worked better when she talked and Tatsuya worked better when he didn't. It's like the most universal critique against EP the fans have. There are also lots of fans who prefer IS over EP, but it seems like EP gets more love because it has the older fan base. That's all changed since the series surge in popularity and IS finally getting a western release. It's a shame the PSP version of EP wasn't released over here, especially since it's extra content is way more interesting than IS. You basically have an alternate scenario where you get to play as Tatsuya and see what he was doing all the time he's offscreen and it fills in some more info about the plot and has incredibly deep Lovecraft references as most of his bosses involve fighting the rest of the Outer Gods.

    Ellen/Eriko is indeed one of my favorite characters from Persona 1 and I loved her in EP as well. Her 100 Ghost Stories Contact with Ulala and Baofu is easily one of my favorite contacts in the series. I don't necessarily agree with the your feelings about the rest of the cast as I loved Baofu and Ulala. I generally love P2's cast far more than the casts of the other games since they better balance interesting character conflict with quirky personalities.

    Honestly, getting those high damage spells isn't too hard, P2 kind of offsets Chrono Triggers issue with Dual/triple techs by giving them a significant boost in power making them more useful than just having everyone use their own spell. You're almost always better off using a fusion spell than old series standby spells like the Megiddo class spells. I mean it's not like you can't use them, but frankly I made it through the final dungeon of EP by spamming the hell out of Dragon Cross. I mean the Ultimate Persona in EP sacrifice better stats for more versatility in comparison to their IS counterparts. This is kind of what I mean about how I really enjoy the game's customization system. The later entries streamline things way too much for my taste.

  12. #297
    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    From what I heard, Tatsuya's scenario also deals with the creation of the Shadows we see in P3 and P4, so that'd be very interesting, if true. And they managed to bring back Satomi Tadashi for it so I really wonder how he handled tying up that particular inconsistency in the overarching lore

  13. #298

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    I did like Ulala and Baofu at times but I think Ulala peaked far too early with her Joker. After that she's largely just Baofu's love interest or there for comedy.

    Overall, I think a big reason I like 4 and Innocent Sin the most is because they are the ones that focus most on the bond between the heroes. EP's cast feels more like 3's - a group of people who might get along but aren't necessarily so close they are practically family.

    Also:

    When Philemon said we would save the world by removing the group's memories, I figured that meant we were retconning the game out of existence, not just creating a parallel world. That's the point - our heroes sacrifice their memories for a better world and to undo all the damage.

    But the existence of two separate worlds, one where the world is still destroyed, negates the entire sacrifice. No one was saved, all you did was create a bunch of people to replace them.

  14. #299
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    • Former Cid's Knight

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover View Post
    When Philemon said we would save the world by removing the group's memories, I figured that meant we were retconning the game out of existence, not just creating a parallel world. That's the point - our heroes sacrifice their memories for a better world and to undo all the damage.

    But the existence of two separate worlds, one where the world is still destroyed, negates the entire sacrifice. No one was saved, all you did was create a bunch of people to replace them.
    Philemon more or less rewound time before the events and placed the party in a time frame where IS didn't actually happen, thus creating a different timeline not too different from Zelda OoT where there is the timeline where Link becomes an adult and saves the world and one where he prevents the events from ever happening when he was a child.

    I wouldn't say it really cheapened their sacrifice since they basically sacrificed their friendship to save the world by creating a new timeline. It's made more tragic when you realize P2:EP Ending spoilers Other Side Tatsuya had to sacrifice ever being with his friends again by returning to the Other Side to prevent Nyalarthotep from screwing with the new timeline since it's his own memories that allow the two alternate realities to merge in the first place. It's implied that his friends don't exist in the Other Side anymore so Tatsuya will be alone. The Lisa, Jun, and Eikichi in EP are very much the ones from IS whereas the Tatsuya of This Side is now an alternate one who really never did meet the others. This ending can be even more tragic if you allow the IS team to remember the Other Side though it also makes the final boss significantly more difficult.

    Honestly, I feel like it was a clever and interesting premise, like Chrono Cross but slightly less preachy and a better cast and battle system.

  15. #300

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover View Post
    When Philemon said we would save the world by removing the group's memories, I figured that meant we were retconning the game out of existence, not just creating a parallel world. That's the point - our heroes sacrifice their memories for a better world and to undo all the damage.

    But the existence of two separate worlds, one where the world is still destroyed, negates the entire sacrifice. No one was saved, all you did was create a bunch of people to replace them.
    Philemon more or less rewound time before the events and placed the party in a time frame where IS didn't actually happen, thus creating a different timeline not too different from Zelda OoT where there is the timeline where Link becomes an adult and saves the world and one where he prevents the events from ever happening when he was a child.

    I wouldn't say it really cheapened their sacrifice since they basically sacrificed their friendship to save the world by creating a new timeline. It's made more tragic when you realize P2:EP Ending spoilers Other Side Tatsuya had to sacrifice ever being with his friends again by returning to the Other Side to prevent Nyalarthotep from screwing with the new timeline since it's his own memories that allow the two alternate realities to merge in the first place. It's implied that his friends don't exist in the Other Side anymore so Tatsuya will be alone. The Lisa, Jun, and Eikichi in EP are very much the ones from IS whereas the Tatsuya of This Side is now an alternate one who really never did meet the others. This ending can be even more tragic if you allow the IS team to remember the Other Side though it also makes the final boss significantly more difficult.

    Honestly, I feel like it was a clever and interesting premise, like Chrono Cross but slightly less preachy and a better cast and battle system.
    How are you supposed to let them remember? I didn't even know that was an option. They kept telling me over and over again that they can't remember or else.

    Also...are you serious right now? You think Persona 2 has a better battle system than anything, let alone Chrono Cross' quite good and involved system?



    But seriously, CC's combat system was one of its best features while P2's gameplay is the biggest reason no one will ever play it or enjoy it.

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