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Thread: Tetsuya Nomura breifly talks Remake Battle system.

  1. #31
    Bright Shield's Avatar
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    For you Wolf it would be more like them drastically changing FF6 or Chrono Trigger.

    My problem isn't with change in general though, it's with the actual changes themselves. The guys in charge of this Remake have never done FF7 justice. They have no idea how to write a coherent plot. Not to mention that the subgenre shift is just a complete slap in the face. It's like they're saying that turn based games aren't good.

    Granted, I'm not as pissed off as I'm coming across. I expected this crap from SE, and FF7 was never a favorite of mine to begin with. I'm just trying to figure out why some of the FF7 fanbase has no problem with this. They are pretty much writing FF7 out of it's own timeline, and saying that almost everything about it was crap and needs to be "fixed". George Lucas went through a similar thought process when he ruined Star Wars... >_>

    And yes, the Lufia 2 Remake is exactly what I think will happen with this game.
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  2. #32
    Bright Shield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fynn View Post
    That reminds me of how Pokémon Ruby and Sapphire got a remake that significantly altered the story of that game, and yet somehow no one was calling it a travesty for daring to mess with their childhood. And boy, is Pokémon gen III a part of many people's childhood...
    In the compilation's case it's more about how awful the story changes are. The game play changes weren't as drastic either. FF7 Remake is an action RPG. I'm pretty sure that the Pokémon Company would be getting ripped to shreds if they tried that with a mainline Pokémon game.
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  3. #33
    Newbie Administrator Loony BoB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Shield View Post
    It's like they're saying that turn based games aren't good.
    In this day and age? They'd be right, for the most part (I'm talking home console games, not handhelds). Again, I'd love to know how long it has been since we had a genuinely successful (I'm talking mainstream gaming) JRPG that uses turn-based stuff. Because my guess is over a decade ago. Bravely Default was seen as a sign that the old style can still be good, but it's not a massive home console game, it's a little handheld game. It was closer to FFVI than FFVII when it comes to "modernization". I haven't even played Bravely Default but looking at it tells the entire story. If FFVII was remade like Bravely Default, it would already be going backwards rather than forwards.

    Remakes are about remaking a game to fit the modern consoles and modern trends.
    Remasters are about getting an old game and making the graphics better while retaining the gameplay/dialogue of the original.

    One requires actual serious work. That's what I want.

    It should also be said (time and time again, it seems ) that I do not see this as some kind of retcon of FFVII, nor something that will change FFVII in any way. Why? Because FFVII is still there. If I want to play FFVII, I play FFVII. I just want to now also be able to play this reimagining. To me, each game is an island, it's own little dimension if you like. I like creativity, I like imagination, I like seeing what people come up with. If every single FFVII fanfic could be created as a multi-million pound/dollar video game, I'd probably play them all the time. I love the world, I love the characters, I love that I'm going to get to see them again. If it's not 100% FFVII, I am 100% okay with that because I 100% still have FFVII to be 100% FFVII.

    This is the main reason I don't really get too bothered by the compilation, either. If there's something I don't like, that's okay, it's just that particular producer/director's imagining of what would happen and they're perfectly entitled to do it, and I'm perfectly entitled to enjoy seeing what they put together. If I dislike something, that's okay, I don't expect to like everything. The main thing is that I get to see this reimagining. It's no different than a fanfic or speculation about an upcoming game. We all do it. These guys just get paid to, and thankfully for me, that means that I can play a game made by very talented people and see how it plays out in comparison to my own imagination, and that of Sakugachi.

    If I'm going to get upset about something, it better be important, and it better have a notable impact on my life. This won't. And if it is amazing, all the better.

    But seriously, don't you think you're going a little overboard with how you're saying they're going to rewrite the entire game or whatever? Because we don't know sod all about what's going to happen yet. It was established pretty early in this thread that Nomura has basically done a very good job of telling us nothing we didn't already know.
    Bow before the mighty Javoo!

  4. #34
    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    What SE consider "canon" is really moot unless you're counting on a sequel, in which case they'll need to cut off some branches. But as long as all you care just about FFVII's story, be it the original or remake, it really doesn't matter which is true and which is rewritten, because they're both there. Heck, SE made Sword of Mana with huge rewrites to FF Adventure's story, but then look, many years later, we get a remake of the original that is much more faithful, and yet they're both equally valid games, both owned and uh, "protected" by SE.

    Or think of it this way - most people consider the male path of Persona 3 canon, right? I mean, makes sense, considering it's that path that gets referenced in later games in the continuity. But then, the series has already dealth with multiverse stuff at least once, way more than once if you count the rest of the SMT series, making the female path an actually valid, canon path, that just isn't canon in the same timeline as the male path.

    The point I'm trying to get across is that there's really no point in worrying what SE considers canon, what SE thinks is the "true" story of FFVII. Just enjoy each story for what it is. If the FFVII remake will suck, it'll suck. And that's it. The original will still be there, and it will still be as valid as it was, and it will still be the game that defined an entire generation of gamers.

    So. Chill.

    Also, BoB - Persona 5 is turn-based, on a console, and a big frickin' deal, if you haven't noticed.

  5. #35
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Shield View Post
    For you Wolf it would be more like them drastically changing FF6 or Chrono Trigger.
    Well, while I would be against a remake of CT entirely (it would be like trying to repaint the Venus de Milo) I actually wouldn't be bothered too much by a VI remake that made significant changes to the experience, as I said before a graphical update wouldn't really do it for me in the long run and much like VII, it's not like VI doesn't have room to improve in some areas. Granted, I'm sure SE would ruin aspects of it for me but like the DS remake of IV, I'm sure I would still prefer the original over the remake anyway even if it did turn out to be really good.

    My problem isn't with change in general though, it's with the actual changes themselves. The guys in charge of this Remake have never done FF7 justice. They have no idea how to write a coherent plot. Not to mention that the subgenre shift is just a complete slap in the face. It's like they're saying that turn based games aren't good.

    Granted, I'm not as pissed off as I'm coming across. I expected this crap from SE, and FF7 was never a favorite of mine to begin with. I'm just trying to figure out why some of the FF7 fanbase has no problem with this. They are pretty much writing FF7 out of it's own timeline, and saying that almost everything about it was crap and needs to be "fixed". George Lucas went through a similar thought process when he ruined Star Wars... >_>

    And yes, the Lufia 2 Remake is exactly what I think will happen with this game.
    I understand where you're coming from and my own ire with the Compilation is largely due to how poorly it's handled the mythos of VII, but again, I feel any chance of a remake staying true to the original were dashed once the Compilation came to be. I'm not even saying the Remake will stay true to the Compilation, it may end up becoming it's own thing as well that will retcon the Compilation titles. What I am saying is that the Compilation simply showed that the creators and parts of the fanbase are no longer on the same page about the story and world, and that tends to happen a lot when creators come back to projects they haven't really touched in decades which is pretty much what happened with George Lucas. Then again, I don't feel I would be satisfied with J.J. Abrams approach either of just repackaging what I love with little to no changes but cosmetic like The Force Awakens which is basically A New Hope remake that doesn't really add much to the mythos besides being an ironic echo of past glories.

    As for turn based gaming. While I, and many others do believe the gameplay style has still much more to offer, the fact is that the style hasn't really been in vogue for years SE has been trying to move away from it since FFX with mechanics that add movement or jack up the speed at the cost of tactical depth. It hasn't been helped that one of their biggest franchises to come out in the last decade has been an Action-RPG. Even Hiroyuki Itou, the man who made ATB, has said that he believed that FF would eventually move away from Turn-Base combat systems, and that was way back in 2007 he was making that comment.

    Will it go away for good? Probably not, but I do remember one of the criticisms that began to crop up in the PS1 generation of FFs and the RPG genre in general was just how silly and unrealistic turn based combat looked, and I simply feel Square took that to heart. Let's not forget that two of the masterminds of the game are Kitase (has a background in film) and Nomura (creator of said popular Action-RPG and an artist first) so I'm really not surprised both of them would choose a battle system that drops the visually boring turn based system for a fluid visually impactful Action-RPG system instead since it's more in line with where they like to focus on things.

    I think ultimately I'll just paraphrase a conversation Bolivar and I had when the VII Remake was officially announced and said we both agreed (one of those rare times we do) that a VII Remake was always doomed to fail to recapture the magic of the original because so much of what made it great was timing. The impact of leaving Midgard and finally seeing the world can't really be replicated because it was ultimately just one of those "you had to be there" moments in time. So like BoB, I can simply accept the Remake as its own thing, but I'll agree with you that I don't really have enough faith in the people making it either. For me, the only good thing about the Remake is that it will finally shut up the fanbase have been harping about a VII remake since FFVIII came out with better graphics than it.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fynn View Post
    Cloud is definitely an aloof dick from the beginning, but he is also pretty cocky. I wouldn't say he's broody or anything before he regains his true memories - just a total prick, when you think about it. He then has this crisis, but becomes a better person after some introspection, yadda yadda. He really doesn't get really broody until Advent Children which, regardless of how bad that movie's story and characters were, is still plausible considering he's, you know, dying.
    That makes sense, but Kingdom Hearts ? Dissidia Games ? It doesn't. It doesn't really excuse it when Cloud is acting like his Advent Children identity, when he's supposed to be his OG identity, in titles like Dissidia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fynn View Post
    FFVII is a game. You may have very good memories of it, but it's just a game. The remake will also be a game. You may like it more, you may like it less, but still, just because it isn't what you want it to be or it isn't your vision of what FFVII should be in HD, it's not the end of the world. So take it as what it is - a game, not some holy artifact that you can't touch because that's blasphemous. Play the game - the original or remake - and just have fun. Or don't. We don't know yet, since the game isn't out.

    But hey, FFVII is decent and it's still there on so many platforms now and you can still play it, so why waste your energy on this?
    Because people love Cloud for Cloud. I mean, Cloud used to be a top favourite character of mine, and now I don't even hold him in all that high regard compared to characters like Squall, Rydia, Kain and many more. Because his character has been completely changed, from what it was beforehand.

    This sounds rather rude Fynn ? Considering the fact that people have personal reasons ( usually ) to why they might love a fictional character; we all know that it's a simple video game, but that doesn't stop people from loving characters personally, like how you love the Beast from Beauty and the Beast ( judging by your siggy )

    Again, I hate this argument, because it's cutting people out from people who just wanted FFVII in better graphics, sound, and voice-actors, that the original doesn't have. I don't mind the dated graphics, but there's alot of people out there who do, and just wanted to see the game that they loved in better, smoother graphics. This argument is like one big slap to the face to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Shield View Post
    In the compilation's case it's more about how awful the story changes are. The game play changes weren't as drastic either. FF7 Remake is an action RPG. I'm pretty sure that the Pokémon Company would be getting ripped to shreds if they tried that with a mainline Pokémon game.
    Lol, agree so much here. I mean the Pokemon Fandom got mad about a cat standing up for it's final evolution.
    Last edited by maybee; 10-27-2016 at 10:05 AM.



  7. #37
    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    Did not mean to be rude, so if you felt that was the case - sorry.

    Of course people make a personal connection with characters. It's what they're for. And I never once said it was meaningless. All I said is that a game is not something that can be made irrelevant by a remake, much like a book won't be made irrelevant by the film adaptation. What I was trying to say was that you'll still have your game to enjoy, and additionally you'll just have this new take on the game to enjoy. Whether it'll be terrible or not, we have yet to see!

    And it's really hard to choose a path for a remake that will satisfy everyone. Sure, there's a vocal group that just wanted a face lift, but a lot of people are still excited about the action combat, and many people in today's gaming environment (sadly) don't believe anything other than action combat makes for an exciting game. Add to that the fact that Wolf mentioned, that it's been years since the creators and fans of the original have been on the same page, and you just have a whole lot of unrealistic expectations piled up over years and years during which gaming has changed significantly.

    Which is why I'm trying to maintain that "separate thing" attitude. Because just because it's something different, doesn't mean it's bad, and I really don't think it was ever reasonable to expect that we'll get another experience like we did back in the day.

    Whether you like it or hate it, FFVII changed the gaming scene in a huge way in the past. No matter which way they'd go with a remake, a whole crowd of people would be very unhappy with it. So I try to maintain a balanced approach.

  8. #38
    Newbie Administrator Loony BoB's Avatar
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    Yeah, it's not just really hard, it's impossible to please everyone.

    Also, I should clarify that I have nothing against turn based JRPGs. I have WoFF on pre-order. From looking at the screenshots of Persona 5, I can see how turn based can work for it.

    But if you're creating a game with FFXIII or better level of graphics? Yeah, the action should be fluid, at least for me. The original FFVII is not fluid. It works because of the system and level of graphics it exists in. And it's amazing. But if I saw FFXV's level of detail and quality of graphics put into the FFVII original battle system... to me, it would just look very weird. I think I mentioned it before - it'd be trying to be two different things at once.
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  9. #39
    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    I kinda disagree. Just because it's turn-based in practice, doesn't mean it'd have to be awkward with people in lines facing each other. FFX-2 made a nice step forward in that regard, and XIII is still a turn-based system, when you get right down to it, so I believe that with the right choreography and stuff it could still be pulled off and not looked wrong. This is more a matter of what the current gaming climate is and what opinion people have of turn-based systems and JRPGs in general.

    That said, I'm not saying they should have done it just because they could, since they are trying to appeal to as many people as they can with this remake. I think Persona 5's success may actually possibly help with bringing back turn-based battles to the mainstream, since that series has been a bubble that's been swelling, waiting to burst since P3 and now it looks like they're really playing their cards right with marketing and stuff. It's still impossible to tell, since it's really hard to predict some things, but there's every possibility that this game will become the FFVII of this generation.

    But that's still entirely hypothetical. And with a huge project like the FFVII remake after the failures of the XIII series, XIV's launch, and XV still not really guaranteed to reach the success they're hoping for, SE kind of need to try to appeal to as many people as possible.


    Yeah, this in general is why I prefer handheld gaming. Bloated gaming budgets really help with nothing but improving the presentation, and it can often come at the cost of other elements being weaker (looking at XIII here). But hey, maybe this will work out.

    (still salty about the "episodic game" deal, though; I know the story alread; I don't need to be teased with plot details; I just want the game)

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    Newbie Administrator Loony BoB's Avatar
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    Oh, yeah, don't get me wrong, I don't think it can't be turn based. I'm more meaning VII's original style of turn based, where you can patiently sit there and spend time considering your next move. XIII is basically ATB sped up, you're right on that front. I could have seen VII working with XIII's battle system. But a large number of people tend to have a fit about anything related to XIII...

    EDIT: Not so sure regarding marketing with Persona 5 though. The only place I ever hear about it is at EoFF. D:
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    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    I said it's clever, not far-reaching

    And honestly, this place is also the only place I ever hear about FFXV, really. But gaming sites are very excited about both, really. Though FFXV obviously gets more press due to being a longer running brand and having realistic graphics, it's still pretty interesting how much more attention Persona is gaining these days, to the point that it's not implausible that it will soon leave the niche.

  12. #42
    Bright Shield's Avatar
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    Some of you bring up good points, but here.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=WyJHW-QvsUo

    This video sums up my thoughts on this Remake perfectly.
    "Repent your sins through death!" - Ramirez - Skies of Arcadia

  13. #43

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    Yeah, agree with his point that the remake is more aimed towards the Crisis Core/ Advent Children/ DOC generation, and mostly refuse to play the OG due to aged graphics.

    That's fine, though it's going to be frustrating for those who grew up with the OG, and it's going to frustrating to have to wait for the rest of the parts of the remake for everybody.

    Also hugely agree that Nintendo is doing a much better job of Cloud Strife, and knows his character much, more more than SE ever does today.



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    Newbie Administrator Loony BoB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maybee View Post
    Also hugely agree that Nintendo is doing a much better job of Cloud Strife, and knows his character much, more more than SE ever does today.
    Have you played World of FF? They nailed Cloud in it. Really pleased.
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  15. #45
    Bright Shield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loony BoB View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by maybee View Post
    Also hugely agree that Nintendo is doing a much better job of Cloud Strife, and knows his character much, more more than SE ever does today.
    Have you played World of FF? They nailed Cloud in it. Really pleased.
    He is better in that game, and the game is decent overall.

    Sadly it also more proof that Square simply cannot tell a good story any more.
    "Repent your sins through death!" - Ramirez - Skies of Arcadia

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