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Thread: Are all games equal? Should they be?

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    Loony Bob (Sargatanas)

    Default Are all games equal? Should they be?

    I'm curious regarding the standard of a game that some people seem to expect. Some people seem to say "But it's a Final Fantasy game, it should be better than this" for certain games in the series, for example. Yet, at the same time, some of those people also say "If it wasn't a Final Fantasy game then I'd probably actually think it was pretty good." This makes me wonder if all games should be treated equal, and if they are treated equal. Also, how that affects payment for games. If you set the standard higher, does that mean you are more willing to spend more money on that game? Think of a game you were content with. Not amazed, but contented. Would you pay a higher price than you did if it was then going to have it's standards increased to become more generally regarded as amazing?

    Personally, the best similarity I can think of for me is the Pokémon series. I don't buy the games these days because I feel they don't justify the price tag with enough 'new' stuff to warrant the price of a full game. More often than not the amount of work that goes into a Pokémon game... well, it generally seems like "Get the previous generation, throw in a new thing or two, add a new generation of Pokémon. Oh, and if they want to actually catch them all instead of trading, then definitely make them buy the game twice just for good measure." I can't stand this line of thinking. If I'm paying full price, I expect to be provided with a completely freshly created experience (a la Final Fantasy), or a generally amazing amount of razzle dazzle on display (a la Uncharted). Pokémon is generally a series based on "more of the same". We tend to get more 'new things' every few months in the bigger patches for FFXIV than we get in a full game of Pokémon, and this really annoys me. I've bought Pokémon games but never full price. Just eBay stuff for old generations. Especially when individual people make up new Pokémon for mods for free on a regular basis that are just as good as the official stuff.

    Then you look at the VII Remake. When they said they're making it episodic because the cost of a single game won't cover the cost of making all the content they want to make, I was pretty happy. I would much prefer paying more than the price of a single game if it means that I'm going to get that much more effort put into the game. I'm just happy that kind of effort will be going into it.

    So, what about you? What's your general viewpoint on this kinda stuff? Any good examples?
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    I don't think all games are equal. I expect more from a franchise and company that has made a name for themselves then I would from an indy game that looks interesting. It could be why I hated FF XIII. Though I think it would have been decent if it was under a different name, it felt like a shadow of what I expected out of a FF game.

    Maybe I just expect to much from older companies. This may be something for me to think about.

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    Fragaria addict Momiji's Avatar
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    They absolutely are not equal. Like FFNut said, some series that make a name for themselves are expected to hold to the standard of quality that they've been able to show in the past. That isn't to say that every game has to be a knockout home run masterpiece-- that's just not possible.

    I'm really jaded when it comes to Final Fantasy (and that's a big reason why I haven't been around for the past few years). I played the entire series of the games (that were released by that point) through my adolescence and they were a HUGE part of my life. The stories captivated me, the characters entertained me, the music enchanted me, and the gameplay was fun enough to want to keep making them stronger. But the FFXII came along, and while I can't call it a BAD game, it didn't resonate with me much-- it felt very slow and I couldn't stay interested. But that's opinion. Then the the FFXIII trifecta came along and it took me YEARS to finally break down and buy just the first one, because I simply could not be assed to get it. It didn't appeal at all to me. The departure from what Final Fantasy felt like to me was just too much. Once I did pick it up, I did play about 70% of the way through it, trying to like it, but beyond the music and the graphics, I just wasn't feeling it much. It did not help that I found myself disliking over half of the cast too.

    So, would Final Fantasy XV be a better game, in my eyes, if it didn't have the Final Fantasy label? I genuinely think it would be. In fact, I'd prefer it to be. FFXV so far, to me, feels so hollow, like it's trying to be something it isn't. It's such a massive departure from what made Final Fantasy what it has been for nearly 30 years. It doesn't feel like Final Fantasy to me. It feels like its own game with some Final Fantasy references injected into it. I'm not saying that changes are a bad thing-- they're necessary to keep players coming back. But in my eyes, the game is so far removed from what the series has made itself out to be that it just may as well not be a Final Fantasy game at all. And I'd be okay with that! If it didn't try to be something it wasn't and made a new name for itself instead, I'd be far more forgiving. It'd be a new IP that they would be working the kinks out of. That would be totally fine. But since they decided to say "Hey, this is the next big installment in one of the longest-running and most deeply loved RPG series in history", expectations are way higher-- especially since it's been trapped in development hell for so long. There's only so many excuses that can be made for it!

    As far as prices go, the degree of standard I hold for a game definitely influences how much I'm willing to pay. I agree that Pokemon is more of the same ad nauseam, but I find myself getting each new release on release date, too. I feel that while every game hasn't been a hit (Generation 4 was completely unmemorable to me, I hated Black/White 2 and felt it was so unnecessary, and thought the story of XY was dumb), what matters to me in the games is the gameplay. Sure, it's samey, but it's a good kind of samey, I feel. It hits all of the nostalgia feelings while still feeling new each generation without being TOO different. And each generation has improved on what the game really sells itself on: interacting with other players. It used to be impossible to play or trade with anyone if you didn't have a link cable or if no one near you had the game. Now, the games have made it so much more accessible-- you can easily play with anyone LITERALLY AROUND THE WORLD, whether you know them or not-- and it's so much easier to play competitively too with all the new ways the game lets you breed and train your Pokemon to your liking. I also feel that for that reason, your point about "making them buy the game twice" is moot, because you're not expected to do that. The version system was flawed and forced commercialization, I agree, but only up until Generation 4, where it became far, FAR easier to interact with other people to collect the Pokemon you didn't have access to. While there's a point to be made that it's still overall unnecessary, it's a very, very small issue now, since only a very small number of Pokemon are exclusive to each version these days, relatively. It's an encouragement to interact with other players. It's not the BEST method of doing it, I feel, but it works. So for all of that, I'm willing to pay $39.99 every couple years. I'm cool with that. And it's because my standards for Pokemon aren't really that high-- I know what to expect when I'm buying the game, which is a tried-and-true formula with a new story, new environment, and new Pokemon to collect, while improving on the experience overall. I don't expect the game to blow me away or be Game of the Year material.

    I do, however, have that standard for Final Fantasy, and that's why my general dissatisfaction with the series over the past decade has left a bad taste in my mouth. (Except FFXIV. FFXIV is great.)

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    Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but from what I can read in your post...

    - Game A and Game B cost the same.

    - You expect Game A to be rather average based on historic entries in the series
    - You expect Game B to be amazing based on historic entries in the series

    - Game A is decent, when you forget the brand name
    - Game B is decent, when you forget the brand name

    - You are cool spending money on Game A each time because it did not meet your expectations
    - You are not cool spending money on Game B each time because it did not meet your expectations

    So despite them costing the same and both being about as good as each other, you have a bitter feeling towards the one you had higher expectations for and lose faith in that series, while you had low expectations for the other series and it met the lower expectations and therefore you will continue being a customer for them.

    I dunno man, it just seems weird to me to hold games to such different standards despite spending the same amount on them. I mean, I guess it's like food for me. I don't care where the food is from so long as it tastes great. It could be from a gourmet chef and still taste like a McDonalds burger and so long as they both charged me the same amount, I'd be okay with that.

    This isn't a criticism by the way, it's just something I'm trying to wrap my head around a little better because I don't understand it. xD
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    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    I... kind of disagree?

    I don't wish to offend anyone this way, but as I am replaying all the FFs in order now (and expecially after my recent playthrough of VII), I really don't think there is any kind of golden standard that is anything other than simply our own nostalgia talking.

    I mean, I still really like VII, it has some nice things about it, but now that I play it as an adult, I can see how terrible the whole second half of the game is with its incredibly long dungeons empty of any dialogue, and the idiotic huge materia quest that is just one massive plothole, and the whole thing really feels like heaps upon heaps of pointless padding. This game didn't need to be this long.At all.

    So no, I really don't think games have to be "good enough" to be considered FF, because the game that made FF popular - VII - isn't really that good. It has really good moments, but the overall package is severely lacking. We all just played it at an age where everything seemed awesome. And now we're playing games at an age where we know more and have seen more, so all these new things seem less special because we didn't grow up with them.

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    Fragaria addict Momiji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loony BoB View Post
    Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but from what I can read in your post...

    - Game A and Game B cost the same.

    - You expect Game A to be rather average based on historic entries in the series
    - You expect Game B to be amazing based on historic entries in the series

    - Game A is decent, when you forget the brand name
    - Game B is decent, when you forget the brand name

    - You are cool spending money on Game A each time because it did not meet your expectations
    - You are not cool spending money on Game B each time because it did not meet your expectations

    So despite them costing the same and both being about as good as each other, you have a bitter feeling towards the one you had higher expectations for and lose faith in that series, while you had low expectations for the other series and it met the lower expectations and therefore you will continue being a customer for them.

    I dunno man, it just seems weird to me to hold games to such different standards despite spending the same amount on them. I mean, I guess it's like food for me. I don't care where the food is from so long as it tastes great. It could be from a gourmet chef and still taste like a McDonalds burger and so long as they both charged me the same amount, I'd be okay with that.

    This isn't a criticism by the way, it's just something I'm trying to wrap my head around a little better because I don't understand it. xD

    Indeed, there's a misunderstanding here.

    Let's think of expectations and standards on a numerical scale, with 10 being FANTASTIC and 0 being absolute garbage.

    If, in my eyes, Final Fantasy games have for the most part historically been in the 7-10 range, getting a Final Fantasy game that feels to me like a 4 does make me feel rather bitter. My standards were high and they weren't met, thus making it feel like it wasn't worth it.

    On the other hand, if Pokemon games in my eyes have historically been in the 4-8 range, getting a Pokemon game that's a 4 feels par for the course. It feels like "well, I expected about as much.

    In this example, I'd be rating both games as a 4, but I'm cooler with Pokemon being a 4 because my standards for it aren't as high. I'm a fan of the series and have been since gen 1, but by no means do I feel like it could ever be absolutely astounding in any aspect-- it's just fun.


    For another example, I'll use the Dangan Ronpa series. I smurfing LOVE Dangan Ronpa. But are they good games? The stories are ridiculous and absurd and the characters are highly exaggerated tropes-- but that's all intentional. The gameplay isn't much to write home about. But I've consistently got the special edition of each game that has come out so far because I got so much enjoyment out of them anyway. My standard for the games aren't super high-- let's say they are solidly in the 5 range for me. I don't expect the games to be anything more than that, but they keep ending up being 6-8s with me after I play them. They've always exceeded my expectations, which keeps me coming back to pay more.

    To use your food example: Pokemon and Dangan Ronpa are junk food. Tasty junk food. I don't expect them to be more than junk food, but I do enjoy them anyway. Final Fantasy, however, has always been a more substantial series in my eyes. I expect Final Fantasy to be a gourmet meal-- rich and fulfilling, while Pokemon or Dangan Ronpa is a box of donuts. If the gourmet meal ends up being a box of donuts that has a ~*~GOURMET~*~ label slapped on it when it just ends up being a box of donuts with sprinkles (I don't even like sprinkles!), it's hard to feel fulfilled. Meanwhile, Dangan Ronpa, while I expect a box of donuts, ends up being a box of JELLY filled donuts, the it's like, holy trout man, my expectations have been exceeded.

    So let's bring it back to FFXV. I'm not super fond of it so far! It's in limbo between 3-6 to me right now. My standard for FF series is 7-10. It isn't meeting that standard, so I'm feeling dissatisfied. If it were, instead, not a part of the FF series, and instead [INSERT NEW SQUARE ENIX IP HERE: BRO SKYRIM EDITION], my standards would be different. I wouldn't have expected it to be as great as FF games have historically been in my eyes, and I may have felt differently.

    One's perception of a series does color a lot of opinions when it comes to enjoyment of a game, I feel.

    Does that make more sense?

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    Yossarian Lives Administrator Psychotic's Avatar
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    Why did Square call Final Fantasy XV that rather than, to borrow from Momiji, [INSERT NEW SQUARE ENIX IP HERE: BRO SKYRIM EDITION]? Brand recognition based on the success of previous entries in the series leading to greater commercial success. If you want to use that to drive sales of and interest in your game, you also have to accept the consequence of being held up against the previous games. Or rather, live by the sword, die by the sword.

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    Sounds like I wasn't too far off? :o Unless I'm still misunderstanding. xD But yeah, basically you thought both games were about as good quality-wise as each other, but you have OK feelings towards one while having negative feelings towards the other, based on pre-existing standards. It's a large chunk of why these days I try my hardest not to get caught up in hype. When I played VI through to finish the first time, it was after endless hype at EoFF and honestly I just felt... tired? Bored? I dunno. There were a lot of great things in that game but my expectations were to be dramatically amazed like I was in most new FF games I play. But I just wasn't and that annoyed me.



    I think it's important to lower your expectations as much as possible before going into a game, regardless of the anticipation you might have for it. It's tricky, I know. I just like basing my expectations based on money, I guess. If I pay full price for a game, I expect to be entertained to a decent level, and to experience something that feels somewhat new, so I'm not just paying for the same thing all over again. I remember when people criticised L4D2 for basically feeling like an expansion. That's me with every Pokémon game. xD But yeah. L4D2 I enjoyed despite paying full price because the only thing that they really could change were the maps and enemies - everything else was crucial to the formula. And I guess you can say the same for Pokémon, but the amount of work that goes into creating a Pokémon world just feels so much incredibly less than what you get out of a home console game or whatever.

    Final Fantasy is a gold mine for me because I know that whatever I'm going to play, it's going to be new, and I can experience that new-ness from scratch. To have a solid number of games in the series held to such a high standard and still be coming up with new things every game, I love that. I love learning about each world and character. But I can understand if other people are more concerned with learning about new kinds of Pokémon and how new types can be mixed up better or something, I guess. I just feel like it's something that they could charge half price for and still be able to have insane profit from. People are suckers for them pocket monsters and they just don't seem very difficult to make compared with other things in home console games. I guess I wouldn't mind Pokémon so much if it just cost less. xD

    Overall, though, I just rate each game for what it is. With Final Fantasy, I expect each game to be very different from the last one and the ones before, with a few common elements. Rag tag team of adventurers build up their strength and save the world, fixed characters, fixed personalities, chocobos, moogles, that kinda thing. Perhaps I'm just easily pleased beyond that.

    One home console game that did disappoint me was Duke Nukem Forever, if anything. That game did not warrant me paying full price, but I did it. Oops.

    I wonder, Momiji: Given your different expectation levels, would you be okay with paying more for one game than the other based on the standards you hold to each series? Would you have paid twice the price for a game you felt was 8/10 than a game you felt was 4/10?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loony BoB View Post
    Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but from what I can read in your post...

    - Game A and Game B cost the same.

    - You expect Game A to be rather average based on historic entries in the series
    - You expect Game B to be amazing based on historic entries in the series

    - Game A is decent, when you forget the brand name
    - Game B is decent, when you forget the brand name

    - You are cool spending money on Game A each time because it did not meet your expectations
    - You are not cool spending money on Game B each time because it did not meet your expectations

    So despite them costing the same and both being about as good as each other, you have a bitter feeling towards the one you had higher expectations for and lose faith in that series, while you had low expectations for the other series and it met the lower expectations and therefore you will continue being a customer for them.

    I dunno man, it just seems weird to me to hold games to such different standards despite spending the same amount on them. I mean, I guess it's like food for me. I don't care where the food is from so long as it tastes great. It could be from a gourmet chef and still taste like a McDonalds burger and so long as they both charged me the same amount, I'd be okay with that.

    This isn't a criticism by the way, it's just something I'm trying to wrap my head around a little better because I don't understand it. xD
    If a gourmet chef had over the course of 10 years served you food that is twice as good as mcdonalds for the same price as mcdonalds, then one day when you ordered something there it was just as good as mcdonalds, you wouldn't be disappointed? You wouldn't wonder what happened that caused this drop in quality? That's not even touching the dozens of other factors, such as preference for a certain game (or in this case, food). Perhaps the food made by this chef was one of the very few foods you actually liked, and now that it's dropped in quality, you have nowhere to go for good food at an affordable price anymore? I'm sure you'd be at least little bit annoyed if the only 20 pound meal you could get that you actually liked required you to wait until the next time you happened to be in for example new york, if your town previously had a place where you could get this quality for 20 pounds, but now the only places that offer that quality charge you over 50.

    It might not even be about "objective quality", but personal preference. When you buy a game, you are taking a bit of a gamble. Will your 50 pounds get you something you enjoy, or will you start disliking it after just a few hours? Over time, you want your gambles to get you a bunch of games that are for you above average. Let's say you bought 10 games in 2016. you hated two of them, thought 6 were decent, and two were excellent. What if in 2017, all ten games were just decent, with no low or high points? none of the games really made you feel like soaking a ton of extra time into, and the entire gaming year was just a bit of a snoozefest. Would you get on a rollercoaster with no highs or low, just a straight line to the end of the track?

    If your gaming year netted you more good games than on average, you had a good year in gaming. If several of the games you were betting on lifting the average were just... average, then clearly you had a worse gaming year than usual, and there might be a long time until you get to play something you think is really amazing again.

    And I often choose to pay less for games I think aren't as good. It's called waiting for a steam sale . A game that i think will be just average won't make me buy the game at launch for its full price. I'll wait until it drops by 33-50% and then buy it. I only pay full price for games I feel pretty sure that I'll like. This is why I haven't gotten FF15 yet. In fact, I might just wait for the PC version of that so I can mod out all the product placement.

    I think lowering your expectations for developers that you have traditionally liked is a bit... apologetic? If they were good before, why should I be fine with them dropping in quality? I'd rather just not reward them for a poor job, or reward them to a lesser degree than usual.
    Last edited by Mirage; 12-07-2016 at 06:20 PM.
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    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    Lol, if Danganronpa is junk food to you, Momiji, then we have totally different ideas on what good standards are. Which basically deconstructs the whole thread because it just goes to show all of this is 100% subjective.

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    Danganronpa does look like junk food.
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    Newbie Administrator Loony BoB's Avatar
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    I guess to continue with the food thing, if I had a ten year wait I'd be questioning why other chefs weren't providing me with something equally awesome. Also, I'd recognise that tastes and trends and ingredients etc over the course of even a few years will change, just like chefs. With that in mind, I'd go in with hope more than expectation that the food might still be as good as it once was.

    Even when going from one Pizza Hut to another i find the quality changes a fair bit. I accept that I like Pizza Hut pizza but that doesn't mean I will complain a huge deal if one pizza place uses more sauce than another.

    But yeah, with any kind of creativity, expectations are the biggest reason for disappointment and I'm not fond of encouraging myself to be disappointed. Not every food will be the best, some art from an artist is better than others from the artist, etc.

    I'd have been disappointed in XV if it had felt like a reskin of a previous FF, though, I guess. I'm not after the exact same food every time - if I wanted that I'd just play the old games again (which I do sometimes!).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loony BoB View Post
    I guess to continue with the food thing, if I had a ten year wait I'd be questioning why other chefs weren't providing me with something equally awesome. Also, I'd recognise that tastes and trends and ingredients etc over the course of even a few years will change, just like chefs. With that in mind, I'd go in with hope more than expectation that the food might still be as good as it once was.

    Even when going from one Pizza Hut to another i find the quality changes a fair bit. I accept that I like Pizza Hut pizza but that doesn't mean I will complain a huge deal if one pizza place uses more sauce than another.

    But yeah, with any kind of creativity, expectations are the biggest reason for disappointment and I'm not fond of encouraging myself to be disappointed. Not every food will be the best, some art from an artist is better than others from the artist, etc.

    I'd have been disappointed in XV if it had felt like a reskin of a previous FF, though, I guess. I'm not after the exact same food every time - if I wanted that I'd just play the old games again (which I do sometimes!).
    If I go to a sushi restaurant, I expect variations and improvements on sushi. If I go there and ask for them to recommend me something, I would be a bit disappointed if they gave me a steak, no matter how good the steak was.

    Clearly, there should be variations and improvements in the final fantasy series too, and there always is. That doesn't mean it's impossible to make something that is a bit too different for many of the customers.

    Likewise, I would think it was weird if I went to Burger King and was served medium-low quality sushi.
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    Untalented Game Designer FFNut's Avatar
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    I found that XIII for myself was a letdown due to it breaking away from what FF really is. It could have been saved with captivating characters, and story. However it fell short there too for me. I hated the people who I controlled, and really didn't feel the need to identify with their struggle. It was just a one and done.

    I found it connected with the masses more then the fans. Made itself easy, and never had me needing to figure out what's next. It would just bluntly tell you.

    Coming from owning all all and playing all but XI up to that point, it fell short.

    If if you took away the FF title on it my expectations would be different and I may have enjoyed it for what it was.

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    the combat system in 13 didn't disappoint me as much as the exploration and characters did. that combined with a convoluted story and cheaply implemented lore made the replay value pretty awful for me.
    Oh, and one-dimensional character progression with what was essentially a very simplified sphere grid
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