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Thread: Are all games equal? Should they be?

  1. #46

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    I know what it was supposed to be. I just want to give an impression that not everyone is like that. Fox pointed out expectations. There are "expectations" in Final Fantasy for me that never are betrayed for the very reason that they are all in Square's products, even if manifested in another way a bit. And then of course we get the typical Sky comment.
    Last edited by Sephiroth; 12-19-2016 at 10:39 AM.

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fynn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    "I liked Final Fantasy VIII. Will I like IX?" - Probably!
    "I liked Final Fantasy VIII. Will I like XV?" - I have absolutely no idea!
    "I liked Final Fantasy III, will I like IV?" - Probably!
    "I liked Final Fantasy III, will I like X?" - I have absolutely no idea!
    I dunno, I think with the first 10 you can kinda go through them 1 by 1 and arrive at a recommendation.

    If you like III you'll probably like IV.
    If you like IV you'll probably like V.
    If you like V you'll probably like VI.
    If you like VI you'll probably like VII.
    If you like VII you'll probably like VIII.
    If you like IX you'll probably like IX.
    If you like IX you'll probably like X.

    So if you like III you'll probably like X. With some caveats, sure, but they still have the same blood. They're still built on the same pillars. But from there on things get difficult.

    X > XI? Erm.
    XI > XII? Uuuuuh.
    XII > XIII? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    And so on. Suddenly the franchise starts become a mess of all different kinds of games, and I think it loses a lot of its identity in the process. Something being "like a Final Fantasy game" doesn't really mean anything anymore.

  3. #48
    Radical Dreamer Fynn's Avatar
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    It's really not that simple, because people like different things about each FF and I really think it's impossible to assume what they'll like later on. I adore IX and really, really dislike X, while XII is my favorite. My wife liked VII and VIII but didn't really like IX. And then there's the whole crowd of people who abandoned ship when VII came out (that really isn't much because that's when the fandom actually exploded, but you get the picture).

    It's not a new thing. And you can't really objectively quantify what constitutes good or bad change, because you can't really make sense of what people will like when it comes to the next game, because the reasons for liking the games are completely different.

    The identity is there. Because the identity has always been flexible, as I've discovered doing my marathon. Remember how the series was all about having the D&D monsters and spell system? Or the Namingways?

    Or, you know, the Crystals, Moogles, Chocobos, Nagas, Iron Giants, pretty boys, etc. Those things stick, so how is the identity lost?


    What I;'m getting is, I really honestly hate XIII. I really do. I think it's a travesty that began the chain reaction leading to the severe damaging of FF's reputation. But I still won't say it's not an FF, and that's not because I feel the game plays like FF (it doesn't since never before were you so constrained in every aspect of gameplay) or because it has a good enough story (literal garbage, tbh). And yet I still think it's a Final Fantasy. It was conceived as a Final Fantasy from the getgo and has just enough to make you see it and go "yep, that's a Final Fantasy alright". And though I haven't played XV yet, judging by everything I've seen I can also go "yep".

    Your enjoyment of a Final Fantasy doesn't determine the game's "identity" as a Final Fantasy game, is all I'm saying. You're free to dislike XV. But that's the direction FF went this time. maybe next time it'll be more agreeable for you.

  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    ....
    My recommendation to you then is to play the old games and ignore anything new that comes out that doesn't fall into the formula of the old games. A majority of other series out there have a more solid foundation and ground rules to abide by in comparison to mainline FF games. FF mainline games have a defined origin, but the foundation itself is change. I'm not talking about minor changes either. It comes with the territory of the this series in particular.
    "I'm seeing it clearer/Hating the picture in the mirror/They claim we inferior/So why the f**k these devils fear ya?/I'm watching my nation die genocide the cause/Expect a blood bath/The aftermath is y'alls/I told ya last album, we need help cause we dying/Give us a chance, help us advance cause we trying/Ignore my whole plea, watching us in disgust/And then they beg when my guns bust/They don't give a f**k about us" 2pac ft. Outlawz- "They Don't Give a F**k About Us"

  5. #50

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    OK, maybe I am being slightly unfair towards XV in particular here.

    Maybe instead of suggesting XV shouldn't be part of the franchise, maybe a better way to say it is that the further away from what people expect of your series you go, the less of a good idea it is to include it in that series.

    So would anyone who liked XV have enjoyed it any less if it were called something else? I would assume not; it would be the same game, after all.
    But would people who disliked it have enjoyed it more if they weren't hoping for something similar to the other games in this series that they've been playing for 30 years? Probably. Certainly I would have.

  6. #51
    Radical Dreamer Fynn's Avatar
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    It's important to remember that, just like XIII, XV would probably had not been made if it weren't labelled an FF because SE pours all the money into its cash cow. SE would not invest so much cash in a completely new IP nowadays in the hopes that it would sell better than any FF. And even if it did, way fewer people would play it. That's why it's pointless to really debate that - even if it had existed in that state, it would not have had the same reach.

    Granted, it wouldn't have faced as much criticism as it did. But to be fair, any game that would get the title of "Final Fantasy XV" would be highly criticised by a number of people anyway due to the insane expectations built up for the next numbered title over the years, as well as all the hopes that it will rejuvenate the series after how XIII overstayed its welcome.

    It was a no-win situation, and SE made the best that they could. By refining a concept that seemed popular enough and making it as modern as mainstream that they could while still aiming to preserve the Final Fantasy feel (and according to many a reviewer, both fan and critic, they succeeded). And it paid off, considering how much the game sold and that it's been generally very well received.

    But that's still not indicative in the slightest of what the next installment will look like, because you can really never expect what the next one will be until it's actually out! So here's hoping it's more in line with yoru sensibilities next time, Fox

  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fynn View Post

    But that's still not indicative in the slightest of what the next installment will look like, because you can really never expect what the next one will be until it's actually out!
    Well, therein lies my problem. Because there was a time when you could make a fairly decent guess. I mean, if IX had just come out I would have assumed X would have an ATB, and the setting/story would still be up in the air of course. But you know, we could have had a 'FFX speculation thread' and probably wouldn't have been a million miles off.

    Now we have absolutely no clue. Will XVI be more FFX or Skyrim or Devil May Cry?

    that they could while still aiming to preserve the Final Fantasy feel (and according to many a reviewer, both fan and critic, they succeeded).
    I'd love for us to be able to figure out what makes something "feel like" Final Fantasy. I mean it's not the gameplay mechanics, it's not the style of the narrative, it's not the character archetypes. Are chocobos and musical cues enough?

  8. #53
    Radical Dreamer Fynn's Avatar
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    It's something completely subjective because FF means different things for different people. But a lot of people feel that XV delivers, and a large group feels that it doesn't. That just further proves it. From the spoilers I read, though, I think you can really tell that Tabata is a big FFVI fan, so at least that's there.

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    I personally am going to go into FF XV with an open mind. For me the thing that killed XIII was the people in it, and the hand holding. I want to be able to mess up and explore a bit. The Static Light Warriors in FF1 had a better personality then in XIII.

    It it may be I enjoy the D&D style game more as well. Look at Mass Effect, hated that but loved Dragon Age.

  10. #55
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    Well obviously we need to do a survey now of which FF games people like and how correlated liking one game is with liking any of the future games. I'm sure the correlation between liking I and then II is a lot bigger than I and then XV. The real question would be if liking I and then III is the same as liking XIII and then XV. That may be the best quantitative way to measure incremental 'departure' from the series.

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  11. #56
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    Not really, since XIII's and XV's departures were in completely opposite directions to each other.

  12. #57
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    I myself know I like an open world when it comes to a RPG. I like exploring and finding hidden eastereggs and passages that most wouldn't. I like hearing a clue from one villager and spending hours trying to find what it opens. XIII did away with a lot of that.

    I liked XII a lot, the only complaints I had were that the loot was random, and the controls weren't inverted which is how I choose to play.

    Though the gambit system wasn't perfect, it was easy enough to learn. Still felt like I had some control over the party.

    XIII was a basic set it up, never worry about it again.

    The he jump from XII to XIII was a major step down for the franchise in my opinion, kind of a dumbed down version of what a game could be.

  13. #58
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    II is kind of a black sheep that I feel like a lot of people don't like or are more indifferent to. It is a pretty big departure from I with more defined characters, a bigger focus on story, and a vastly different leveling system.

    Then III kind of goes back to the roots by expanding on the jobs of I while not having as much focus on plot and characters.

    IV was more story focused like II and seemed to follow the formula somewhat including character deaths rotating party members and the friend that betrays you but turns back to good.

    V starts to blend the two mindsets. It doesn't take itself too seriously, but it has a pretty defined story and characters. Like I and III it is more gameplay focused though, and what is most remembered about it usually is its expansion of the job system from III.

    VI is back to being more story focused with more streamlined leveling mechanics. It's big difference is that it is trying to be much more cinematic and kind of has a more futuristic setting.

    I don't really feel like continuing this, but the point is that even back then, there were some major differences in focus for each game. People who like I very well might not like II. People who love IV might not like III. There are really multiple types of final fantasies. I can see the argument for xv not feeling like final fantasy because most people playing the series aren't looking for an action rpg. I don't think the name should effect the quality, but people in the mood for a good turn based or atb dog aren't going to have that itch scratched by xv. I get that. I just think that from the beginning, the series was pretty diverse in how it approached each game.

  14. #59
    Feel the Bern Administrator Del Murder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fynn View Post
    Not really, since XIII's and XV's departures were in completely opposite directions to each other.
    That's kind of the point. How much do these departures actually affect enjoyment of a game?

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