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Thread: Are all games equal? Should they be?

  1. #76

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    It's also possible that he didn't have the whole picture. When they were consulting with him and courting an endorsement there were still many, many months until launch. A lot of his information about the game will have been what the team 'planned' to make before the inevitable impact of cuts in order to hit deadlines. All that extra story they're planning on patching in for example? That was probably all already included when they were pitching it to him.

    Besides, I'm on board with FFXV on paper. Sure I have some big problems with the combat mechanics and the open world and the lack of depth in the RPG systems and so on, but there's nothing there that is fundamentally unfixable. When Tabata was telling me what FFXV was going to be in the Active Time Reports, I was totally onboard just as Sakaguchi was.

    It's only now, having seen the actual, final implementation, that I can say it doesn't work as part of this series. I wonder if now, if they actually had him sit down and play through the final game, if he would get up on stage and endorse it again.

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  3. #78
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    Mirage Askai (Sargatanas)

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    not fundamentally unfixable, but do you really think they'll patch the rpg mechanics at this point? i think SE wants to get this out of the way so they can finally focus on something else

    And many long-time fans have called it the worst final fantasy ever made. A good friend of mine said it's worse than ff13, and he really disliked 13, but would admit that it had a few redeeming qualities. i probably don't know anyone who's played more rpgs than that guy.
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  4. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirage View Post
    not fundamentally unfixable, but do you really think they'll patch the rpg mechanics at this point? i think SE wants to get this out of the way so they can finally focus on something else
    Sorry, let me clarify a bit. What I mean is not "I think they will fix it," but rather that conceptually there is nothing fundamentally wrong; that a few design decisions being made differently, or maybe just having another year in the oven, could have solved my problems with a number of areas. Do I think they will make the changes required to be a game I accept? Absolutely not. But the underlying potential is there.

    In many ways that is one of the reasons I'm so disappointed with the game. There is so much​ potential there which is just wasted.

  5. #80
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    Mirage Askai (Sargatanas)

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    I'd say that having a completely flat and uninteresting character progression system is a fundamental flaw, even if it can technically be fixed with a patch.

    design choices can create fundamental flaws just as well as bugs can. In fact, i'd say poor design choices make fundamental flaws more often than programming issues.
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  6. #81
    Radical Dreamer Fynn's Avatar
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    Again, how flawed the actual system is really depends on who you ask. The same was true for FFVIII, FFX, FFXII, FFXIII...


    Like, I was convinced the FFXIII character progression system was objectively terrible, but there were people who actually sincerely enjoyed it, so the problem was really that it just didn't fit into my sensibilities. And apparently your friend who has played many RPGs apparently has a specific taste (as we all do) that prevented him from enjoying both XIII and XV from a design perspective.


    That's kind of the whole point that I've recently discovered, mainly as pertains to video games, but also writing literature. People will tell you there are good and bad ways to write, but in the end there's no one recipe on how to make a story work. Some of the best, most influential work has been stuff that has defined the established rules, and yet every online writing community just keeps trying to establish rules of "writing the right way". Same with games, really - so many people are saying stuff needs to be done one way or another, but in the end, everybody's personal experience with that game will differ and due to various variables, someone may consider a system you think is obnectively terrible - fun and complex.

  7. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirage View Post
    I'd say that having a completely flat and uninteresting character progression system is a fundamental flaw, even if it can technically be fixed with a patch.

    design choices can create fundamental flaws just as well as bugs can. In fact, i'd say poor design choices make fundamental flaws more often than programming issues.
    Oh, absolutely. And don't get me wrong, I have no desire to come to the game's defense . I just feel like with a few better decisions along the way it could have worked OK.

    For example, on paper the Ascension Grid works OK. "Oh it's kinda like the sphere grid! Unlock stats and techniques for each character, seems reasonable." If you pitched that to me 10 months ago I would be onboard with it. But the reality of the finished product doesn't always hold up to that vision, and it's only when playing the final release where I realise "oh, there are only 3 stats and techniques to care about per character and big chunks of the grid are dedicated to magic and wait mode."

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fynn View Post
    Again, how flawed the actual system is really depends on who you ask. The same was true for FFVIII, FFX, FFXII, FFXIII...


    Like, I was convinced the FFXIII character progression system was objectively terrible, but there were people who actually sincerely enjoyed it, so the problem was really that it just didn't fit into my sensibilities. And apparently your friend who has played many RPGs apparently has a specific taste (as we all do) that prevented him from enjoying both XIII and XV from a design perspective.


    That's kind of the whole point that I've recently discovered, mainly as pertains to video games, but also writing literature. People will tell you there are good and bad ways to write, but in the end there's no one recipe on how to make a story work. Some of the best, most influential work has been stuff that has defined the established rules, and yet every online writing community just keeps trying to establish rules of "writing the right way". Same with games, really - so many people are saying stuff needs to be done one way or another, but in the end, everybody's personal experience with that game will differ and due to various variables, someone may consider a system you think is obnectively terrible - fun and complex.
    Having a progression system that was literally "press x to become stronger" and nothing else would be outside of established rules too. If you like that, you simply don't like rpgs. if you were writing a story, it'd be like pitching a book as a sci-fi when it in fact took place the 1800s with no fiction related to science, you would also be well outside of established rules. And you'd also be blatantly lying. There comes a point where you're simply not making the game/writing the book you're claiming to make/write. That's of course not saying that no one can like it, just that you're being very dishonest about what you're trying to sell. Surely there will be some part of the audience that is fine with both what they were promised and what they got, even if they were completely different things.

    Bringing up FFX and FFXIII as examples is a good opportunity for me though. FFXIII essentially has a sphere grid with a fraction of the complexity of that of FFX, and coincidentally also just a fraction of player choice. FFXV continues the trend with only a fraction of the complexity of the crystarium, and again just a fraction of the player choice the crystarium gave you. This clearly looks like a trend that goes straight to my earlier (admittedly hyperbolic) "press x to get stronger". Who knows, maybe that's what we'll have in FF16?
    Last edited by Mirage; 12-16-2016 at 08:35 PM.
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  9. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx View Post
    You really shouldn't erase the quote you're quoting. Otherwise what's the point? xD It makes it hard to tell what exactly you're responding to.
    You know those arrows next to the user's name in the quote? Click on that and it should take you to the full quote. You're welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scruffington View Post
    Funny you bring that up. Sakaguchi just did an interview where he stated he was literally brought onto the stage to endorse Final Fantasy XV. Square Enix wanted him to show his face one in awhile as the creator of the series, and Tabata asked him to endorse the game to encourage his development team.

    It seems like an entirely PR-based endorsement.
    Far as I have read, Tabata and Sakaguchi have met/talked on multiple occasions. Also, since Sakaguchi isn't part of the company at this point, I see no reason with him being dishonest with his stance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirage View Post
    .......
    "Press X" and something automatically happens. Isn't that what happens in a lot of the series anyway? You bring up player choice and making it out to be better in X than in FFXIII and FFXV, but that isn't necessarily true. The problem with X's system is that the sky is the limit. The fundamental uniqueness every character has in the beginning vanishes by time the end game is complete since all base stats can end up equal. That makes some characters objectively less useful outright, and no longer just a situational condition.


    Now with FFXIII and FFXV, that is not possible. Therefore, each character maintains their uniqueness more in the large picture. With FFXV's situation specifically, Ignis for example is always going to be better using dagger than Noctis. The player choice given to the player in FFXV falls more outside of the Ascension grid. The grid is there to some degree just to enhance a person's play style. Noctis can equip various offensive gear at one time. How each person approaches that can be different. Also, each person has the choice to approach combat more aggressively or more cautiously. In short, the strategy and player choice is there. It is just being presented in a different manor.
    "I'm seeing it clearer/Hating the picture in the mirror/They claim we inferior/So why the f**k these devils fear ya?/I'm watching my nation die genocide the cause/Expect a blood bath/The aftermath is y'alls/I told ya last album, we need help cause we dying/Give us a chance, help us advance cause we trying/Ignore my whole plea, watching us in disgust/And then they beg when my guns bust/They don't give a f**k about us" 2pac ft. Outlawz- "They Don't Give a F**k About Us"

  10. #85
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    it's true for most players for most of the game. In the end, they'll converge to the same in ffx, which is in my opinion a bit boring. Until then, however, there is a myriad of ways to play ffx. You could say the same about stat-maxing in most of the games. that doesn't mean the games don't require planning or thinking to achieve usable results though most of the game. In FF13, the game pretty much thinks for you almost the entire game, both in battle and outside of battle.

    To answer your question, no, "press x to get stronger" isn't how ff5, 6, tactics, 7, 8, 9, 10, 10-2 11 or 12 does it. Even 13-2 improved in that regard over its predecessor.
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  11. #86

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    X kinda gets a pass in my book with converging stats on the sphere grid as that isn't a problem for the first, oh, 100 hours or so. It only becomes an issue if you're really going for all the end game content; dark aeons, monster arena and so forth. Technically FFVII had the same problem because you could just get master materia on everyone. I don't feel these drawbacks are really drawbacks for the majority of the game.

  12. #87
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    yeah, you can break the game by stat-maxing in dozens of games. it's just sort of a final challenge for people to go for. you'll be extremely OP in ff5 with all jobs mastered too, or in ff6 with all magic learned on every character, spamming quick every round
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  13. #88
    Untalented Game Designer FFNut's Avatar
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    Nutty Eoff (Sargatanas)

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    I haven't played XV yet so I can't comment. Decided to go mostly blind as to not spoil anything for me. Honestly it would have to be real trash if it was worse than XIII.

    I do do see though that people would rather play an RPG that is either set in a far off land that is behind the times, or a futuristic setting such as Mass Effect. They have been kinda hitting today in their games such as XIII, and what I have seen of XV. Those will always be a tough sell for people as they don't get to escape their world and go into another.

    That being said a great story that isn't to complex with tons of made up things, with little side stories can make up for this. Persona does a great job with that balance.

  14. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirage View Post
    ....
    Press X to get stronger. Press X to do something automatically. Both end up with the same end results in the aspect that something is being done on an automatic level. That really hasn't changed; the way it has been done just gets changed. FFXIII does almost all of the thinking during the time of the battle aspect? Oh, you must be another one of those people that used the auto-battle (which is optional and not optimal) then complained about it. That's a player generated problem. I didn't use it very much because it found it be crappy for what I wanted to do. It seems to me you're trying to make out older games to have more strategy than what they do in reality. FF mainline games aren't exactly known for being hardcore when it comes to requiring strategy and tactics. While optional content may provide exceptions, it certainly isn't the majority case for the entire game. Most content in these games can simply be overcame with overpowering characters in gear and/or level.
    "I'm seeing it clearer/Hating the picture in the mirror/They claim we inferior/So why the f**k these devils fear ya?/I'm watching my nation die genocide the cause/Expect a blood bath/The aftermath is y'alls/I told ya last album, we need help cause we dying/Give us a chance, help us advance cause we trying/Ignore my whole plea, watching us in disgust/And then they beg when my guns bust/They don't give a f**k about us" 2pac ft. Outlawz- "They Don't Give a F**k About Us"

  15. #90
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    Mirage Askai (Sargatanas)

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    You missed the mark by thinking I'm only talking about the auto-selection of abilities. I am yet to have made assumptions about how you play your game, just by the way. Regardless, you're swinging and missing here. The combat, even auto-stacking in FF13 wasn't one of the things i really disliked about that game.

    The very limited AI options means you're often just painting with very broad strokes, hoping the AI will make the decisions you want.

    I haven't talked much about strategy and tactics of the "old" (not really *that* old, i'm including games up to the third most recent single player games, after all) games. I've been talking about progression systems that give you options, and that offer at least a little bit of depth to dig into.

    Maybe i'm just weird, but I always prefer to overcome difficult enemies by exhausting the options given to me in character progression systems, figuring out good combinations and skills that give good synergy, rather than just brute forcing my way with 10 extra levels. Leveling up in an RPG is basically just gradually adjusting the game's difficulty, and keeping them at or below what the developers intend you to be at makes the game harder, assuming you can make up for the power deficiency with smarter playstyles that require more planning and better strategies.

    The (advanced) sphere grid allowed me to customize my characters with lots of variety, with a path that usually easy to see as the intended one, but nothing stopped you from going somewhere else on it. Planning your route, asserting the advantages and disadvantages of going in a specific direction, and how this build would fit with the builds made on the other characters, that's what I think is fun. Likewise for the materia and junction systems. Figuring out the quirks of new, reasonably complex systems is one of my favourite parts of RPGs, and it's one of the few things that almost every final fantasy made in the last 20 years have had. If I understand every part of the character progression system within 1 hour of playing (like in 13), then something's gone wrong.

    Thankfully, there are other games that offer this if SE decides to drop the ball permanently.
    Last edited by Mirage; 12-17-2016 at 09:39 AM.
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