EoFF XXVII Discussion Thread - Strengthen Those Social Links

[Formalhaut]

Akihiko, once more: we can discuss this over Mognet. But if you insist on posting here,

Everyone has a chance to react and respond to the self-vote rule. People are doing so right now, as a matter of fact. As I'm sure people know playing Mafia: getting the consensus of 8 players is a hell of a thing. It would've taken forever to get everyone around a table and agree or disagree on something. And ultimately: it is the host's call. Self-vote allowed, effective immediately.

As for the posting issue: I fully concede that I could avoid this matter if I remember with my (new) mod powers to post after I have closed my own thread. I must state, though perhaps not overmuch: I am new to hosting. Little errors and corrections will be made. I have stated several times that I'm happy for constructive feedback about how to improve the game (and how).

Also, I stated in the Mognet to you via Igor that your theory post can be reinstated at the start of Day Four, so you haven't lost anything, in the grand scheme of things.

And lastly, we're not Mafia Scum. We are a Final Fantasy forum which happens to also enjoy Mafia. Therefore, we don't have extensive boards, sub-genres, etc. to handle these complex issues. As a first-time hoster, I use Mafia Scum as a standard-bearer for rules I may not have forseen.

What I'm trying to say I guess is this: work with me, not against me. I like that you have ideas and opinions about how the game is run, because those ideas and opinions can help inform me the next time I host a game to make it better (case in point: the posting stuff). I only ask that you give such feedback in a positive manner, for the better enjoyment of all players.

[Freya]

So your complaint is that it doesn't specifically say you can do it. I say it also doesn't say you can't do it. So if not mentioned, you're saying by default that you should be right and it shouldn't be allowed. Mod says it is going to be permissible. And so you still "utterly disagree".

Is that a good recap? Have I misunderstood your point?

My complaint is that only two players had even seen the vote or reacted to it before myself. That leaves 4 other players who had yet to even learn of the self-vote. Everyone who signed up for this game expected majority vote lockdowns and days to end at specific times, but no one expected a day to end due to a self-vote. Therefore everyone should at least be able to respond or react to the vote because this wasn't an original rule.

There was 11 hrs between his vote and the thread being closed. I'm sure they saw it.

[[M] D'Anna]

This isn't a rule being added to the game. It's the officiant making a ruling based on existing rules in a situation the rules as written didn't originally foresee. If you want to have a debate about whether this is good or bad then by all means there can be a debate about it. But there shouldn't be any fuss over it with regard to this specific game because the ruling has been made and just complaining about it because you didn't like the ruling isn't helpful.

Yes, it is a rule being added to the game. The rule being added is that self-voting is allowed. This rule was not in the game before.

I have no issue with the actual decision itself. Self-voting is perfectly acceptable. But this was not in the rules and not what every player expected when they signed up for the game. Half of the players did not have any chance to offer input and now they won't get a chance to since the day is over.

And for the record: no game I've ever played has had rules that covered every possible scenario. And I've played games that 100+ pages of rules before as opposed to the fairly limited rule set stated at the beginning of this game. And I've had to read through a few dozen pages of errata in those games to see what updates have been made based on unanticipated situations. And in those games I have still come across situations where there was no clear interpretation of the situation at hand and myself and my opponent or opponents had to agree on a ruling at the time and carry on with the game. And our standard way of doing it was to just come up with a ruling we agreed on on the spot and then research in detail later to figure out if there was anything we overlooked and get opinions from others for the next game. If you would like to discuss and research and come up with a decision for future games then go ahead, though it seems Formy has looked up what the standard used in other mafia games typically is so I'm not sure there's much argument to be made there.

I agree that you ultimately can't prepare for every single instance, because there can always be something new that pops up and isn't covered. However, I think it is incredibly unfair to add a rule that was not originally in the game, and not give every player a chance to respond to it. I also think it's incredibly fair to selectively enforce an unwritten rule (my post being removed).

That's ultimately not entirely useful and certainly not any fun.

You know what's not any fun? Being screwed over in some way by a host for the third consecutive game. Everyone makes mistakes, and accidents do happen. I understand that. I also think the hosts have ultimately done a great job here and I've enjoyed playing. Formalhaut has been a good host too. But this is the third game in a row where I have had rules either arbitrarily enforced upon me or been screwed by a lack of clarification. It's very frustrating and almost tiring at this point.

[Psychotic]

If I'm honest I think you're making a big deal over something relatively trivial, [M] Akihiko. Your post being deleted isn't a disproportionate response and not a harsh sanction. If you had been modkilled for it I'd understand your displeasure. The host knows you're unhappy, everyone else does too but I'd advise just dropping it, it's not worth this much hassle over something as minor as this.

[[M] D'Anna]

Everyone has a chance to react and respond to the self-vote rule. People are doing so right now, as a matter of fact. As I'm sure people know playing Mafia: getting the consensus of 8 players is a hell of a thing. It would've taken forever to get everyone around a table and agree or disagree on something. And ultimately: it is the host's call. Self-vote allowed, effective immediately.

The problem with you allowing the self-vote immediately is that it effectively screws over the player's decision making. Had I known there was a self-voting rule, I would have definitely not voted for Koromaru and withheld my vote so town could deliberate further.

As for the posting issue: I fully concede that I could avoid this matter if I remember with my (new) mod powers to post after I have closed my own thread. I must state, though perhaps not overmuch: I am new to hosting. Little errors and corrections will be made. I have stated several times that I'm happy for constructive feedback about how to improve the game (and how).

I stated above, but I understand that errors will be made. That's perfectly okay. However I feel somewhat slighted by the fact that I had a post removed where others did not.

Also, I stated in the Mognet to you via Igor that your theory post can be reinstated at the start of Day Four, so you haven't lost anything, in the grand scheme of things.

Except that post was made under the belief that the Day would not end. It also might not even mean anything if it's posted on Day 4 because either myself or the intended recipient might be dead.

There was 11 hrs between his vote and the thread being closed. I'm sure they saw it.

There's no way you could possibly know that.

Had I known this rule was going to be enforced, I would have withheld my vote and not allowed the Day Phase to end due to a self-vote.

[Slothy]

You know what's not any fun? Being screwed over in some way by a host for the third consecutive game. Everyone makes mistakes, and accidents do happen. I understand that. I also think the hosts have ultimately done a great job here and I've enjoyed playing. Formalhaut has been a good host too. But this is the third game in a row where I have had rules either arbitrarily enforced upon me or been screwed by a lack of clarification. It's very frustrating and almost tiring at this point.

Dude, this ruling wasn't aimed at you and I fail to see how you've been screwed since literally nothing has happened to you. You had two posts deleted. One was about the ruling and is far more appropriate here in this thread than the game thread and you're being heard on that one and by all means, we can all decide on a way to move forward with self voting in the future from here, even if it's just stating explicitly if it's allowed from now on. But nothing said in your other post is anything you can't just say again when the new day opens up. You have not suffered here in any way I can see. You aren't a victim of anything here. So how about we just move on from that notion and you can just say whatever you wanted to say in Day 4?

[Shauna]

No point in voting because if you do there might be a majority lynch which ends the day prematurely.

That's a silly complaint.

[[M] D'Anna]

If I'm honest I think you're making a big deal over something relatively trivial, [M] Akihiko. Your post being deleted isn't a disproportionate response and not a harsh sanction. If you had been modkilled for it I'd understand your displeasure. The host knows you're unhappy, everyone else does too but I'd advise just dropping it, it's not worth this much hassle over something as minor as this.

Except I really care about this game. I have a ton of fun playing it. And to have this sort of thing happen to me for three consecutive games is beyond frustrating. I'm honestly tempted to just quit and not bother with it anymore.

No point in voting because if you do there might be a majority lynch which ends the day prematurely.

And if you don't vote then you can't lynch mafia. I don't understand this comment.

[Freya]

Kinda how you sucked all the fun out for me the first game because you decided to out me to everyone as the doctor becuase you thought the game was "broken" based on karifean's way of hosting.

You have ruined the fun too

[Fynn]

Oh my God the troutstorm


Going full-on troll was so worth it

[[M] D'Anna]

Kinda how you sucked all the fun out for me the first game because you decided to out me to everyone as the doctor becuase you thought the game was "broken" based on karifean's way of hosting.

You have ruined the fun too

Don't really have any idea what you're talking about. I never broke any rules, nor did I do anything that was wrong in the game.

[Shauna]

You're complaining that you would have withheld your vote had you known about self voting. All I'm saying is that someone else could have thrown down that killing vote and saying you would have withheld your vote is silly. If it were Junpei, would you be complaining so much right now? Majority lynches can happen, I don't see why it's any different if it's a self vote or not that causes it.

[Freya]

Wow, short memory.

[[M] D'Anna]

You're complaining that you would have withheld your vote had you known about self voting. All I'm saying is that someone else could have thrown down that killing vote. If it were Junpei, would you be complaining so much right now?

Except it wouldn't have been Junpei because he explicitly stated he was not going to do so to avoid a potential lockdown. His vote being the "killing vote" could only be possible with Koromaru's vote being counted which, again, was not known to be a valid vote as part of the rules.

[Fynn]

Well, right now I just want to say this to everyone (sans Akihiko): My condolences. Been there. It's been hell