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Thread: Is Dark Souls a JRPG?

  1. #31

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    I have no idea what that even is. I think you just made up a random word.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squall Leonhart Loire View Post
    I mean, ultimately JRPGs aren't RPGs since you don't role-play in them. You just assume a Japanese anime character.
    So, you role-play as a Japanese anime character. That's still role playing. Creating or defining the character is immaterial. You're PLAYING a role. Not creating one.
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    Dark Souls is a WRPG made in Japan with Western aesthetics. Etrian Odyssey is a WRPG made in Japan with Japanese aesthetics.

    Septerra Core is a JRPG made in the West with Japanese aesthetics. Anachronox is a JRPG made in the West with Western aesthetics.

    The J and W refer to the sub genre based on mechanics, not the country of origin or the visual design but rather where that design philosophy was popularized. It's not a slur, it's a rough description of basic mechanics, of which JRPGs and WRPGs have strong differences that these descriptors need to convey. A turn-based RPG is fairly useless to discern the difference between the two because that encompossases Fallout 1, Final Fantasy X, Valkyria Chronicles, and Wizardry III, all of which are very different from one another.

    Brie is still a French cheese even if it was made in Wisconsin, since that's the nation of origin. Austrian School Economics don't cease to be referred to as such when practiced elsewhere. We use the term to attribute the nation that it emerged from, out of respect and proper designation, and credit the maker's nation of origin.

    So Dark Souls is a WRPG made in Japan.



  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laddy
    It's not a slur, it's a rough description of basic mechanics
    It's not though, because what those basic mechanics are is never defined anywhere. Hence why Final Fantasy, Fire Emblem and Tales Of are all 'JRPGs' despite having wildly different mechanics.

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    And even if it isn't a slur, that doesn't stop people from using it in a derogatory way

  6. #36
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    But the approach to 'role-playing' is similar, that's what the labels are trying to convey because that's where the design philosophy between the two subgenres differ. There's less dependency on skill checks, character advancement is more streamlined, storylines tend to focus on sets and established dialogues rather than branching paths, combat and storyline are usually mechanically segregated, etc.

    Arcanum (isometric, single character, no classes, good/evil magic/tech axis, steampunk) , Morrowind (real-time, less focused on character and more on exploration, combat-heavy, open world), and Might & Magic (party-based, first-person, highly transparent combat mechanics) are also very different, but generally share the same elements that fit under the WRPG label. The differences that those series possess are as radical as ones that could exist in say, the Strategy genre.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fynn View Post
    And even if it isn't a slur, that doesn't stop people from using it in a derogatory way
    Some people don't like certain genres; why does it matter? Keep in mind, for a period in the late 90's and early 2000's, most WRPG's were considered too nerdy or souless compared to WRPG's. That's why Bioware and Bethesda proved so important, they propelled WRPG's more into the mainstream.

    EDIT: I love JRPG's to death, but I think finding their tropes and elements overly common is a very valid criticism of the genre. i.e. Evil Empire, Corrupt Religion, Ancients, Amnesia, My Hometown is Burned, X is my Y, love story, The Old War, the typical six (energetic guy, edgy guy, tough guy, meek girl, bubbly girl, haughty girl). It's a very valid criticism, and while I can appreciate the tropes when they're tied in with a fascinating story and setting and gameplay, I can certainly see why people may not find it appealing. It's not a wronging of people to not enjoy tropes.
    Last edited by Laddy; 03-09-2017 at 03:39 PM.



  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laddy View Post

    EDIT: I love JRPG's to death, but I think finding their tropes and elements overly common is a very valid criticism of the genre. i.e. Evil Empire, Corrupt Religion, Ancients, Amnesia, My Hometown is Burned, X is my Y, love story, The Old War, the typical six (energetic guy, edgy guy, tough guy, meek girl, bubbly girl, haughty girl). It's a very valid criticism, and while I can appreciate the tropes when they're tied in with a fascinating story and setting and gameplay, I can certainly see why people may not find it appealing. It's not a wronging of people to not enjoy tropes.
    There it is. A textbook example of why having these labels is a bad idea. Because you default to the idea that 'JRPGs are full of dumb tropes.' Yet most 'JRPGs' wont feature most of those tropes! They're only tropes of the 'genre' because large numbers of wildly different games are being arbitrarily lumped together and any mechanic or plot device that occurs more than twice gets labelled a 'trope' across the board.

    This happens with a bunch of genres but 'JRPGs' seem to be one of the hardest hit. I can only assume because the label originated in the west as a way to try and lump all the 'wacky Japanese games' under one convenient umbrella.

  8. #38
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    It also bugs me how people complain about "tropes" when no trope is really inherently bad and what matters it's how it's utilized. But no. JRPGs are "tropey", whatever the hell that means

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laddy View Post
    The J and W refer to the sub genre based on mechanics, not the country of origin or the visual design but rather where that design philosophy was popularized.
    No, it is not. If it is not Japanese, it is not Japanese. Just like a cartoon not made in Japan is no anime, no matter how much it looks like an ordinary anime. Anime ist just the Japanese abbreviation of Animation. A Japanese cartoon. Does the Honey Bee Maya not look like an anime? No? Well, it is one. A game from Japan is a Japanese game. A Role-Playing Game from Japan is a Japanese Role-Playing Game. A Japanese Role-Playing game with Western influence is exactly that. Japanese Role-Playing games tend to reflect a certain mindset, just as Western RPGs do, but that is all. A Japanese Role-Playing Game that was made with the mindset of making it like a Western one will simply be a Japanese Role-Playing Game that looks Western-esque. It not being like this would mean a Japanese Role-Playing game could never evolve to the status of looking like what we know from old-school JRPGs as well as the modern ones that are more influenced by the West. They would always stagnate in their classification. Also, as said, they are Japanese.
    Last edited by Sephiroth; 03-09-2017 at 04:08 PM.

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    I never said these tropes were dumb, though? And considering I've been a registered and active poster in a forum for JRPG's for literally half of my lifetime, I have no idea why you'd think that's remotely what I was implying. You're being defensive towards things that aren't being sad.

    I mean, no one is implying that these games are carbon copies of each other or that these tropes (and despite what you're claiming, they are tropes despite your odd being defensive about it) were bad. The only thing I was saying is that a) tropes exist in genres of all media and b) finding them unappealing or too common is a valid criticism. I don't think JRPG's aren't too much more trope heavy than other genres - but their emphasis on plot, aesthetic, and character makes them more noticeable.

    If you'd REALLY like me to, though, I can do a trope counter.



  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laddy View Post
    I never said these tropes were dumb, though? And considering I've been a registered and active poster in a forum for JRPG's for literally half of my lifetime, I have no idea why you'd think that's remotely what I was implying. You're being defensive towards things that aren't being sad.

    I mean, no one is implying that these games are carbon copies of each other or that these tropes (and despite what you're claiming, they are tropes despite your odd being defensive about it) were bad. The only thing I was saying is that a) tropes exist in genres of all media and b) finding them unappealing or too common is a valid criticism. I don't think JRPG's aren't too much more trope heavy than other genres - but their emphasis on plot, aesthetic, and character makes them more noticeable.

    If you'd REALLY like me to, though, I can do a trope counter.
    No, no, Laddy, don't misunderstand! I didn't mean you - I know you don't think like that - I mean there's this trend in general.

  12. #42
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    No, it is not. If it is not Japanese, it is not Japanese.
    Well, it's generally agreed upon that anime has to be Japanese to be considered anime, regardless of stylistic or thematic elements. JRPG's and WRPG's aren't so strictly defined but exist to refer to their content either regardless or in addition to their nation of origin.



  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laddy View Post
    No, it is not. If it is not Japanese, it is not Japanese.
    Well, it's generally agreed upon that anime has to be Japanese to be considered anime, regardless of stylistic or thematic elements. JRPG's and WRPG's aren't so strictly defined but exist to refer to their content either regardless or in addition to their nation of origin.
    I have already added more to my post. You cannot simply go out and say that only because something that started from a Japanese mindset and now we know as the elements of classic RPGs can define a Japanese Role-Playing Game. That means that RPGs could never evolve when it comes to classification. Also what you try to define - not trying to be personal here - looks like double standards. You say it is not about the origin but about the design philosophy during creation. The design philosophy that you say is so relevant and decides what a JRPG is originates in case of JRPGs from where exactly? Japan. So there is no getting around that. Even if you do not want to count something from nowadays as JRPG just is comes from Japan, your own definition when led back to the roots makes use of the word "Japanese" because of Japanese origin itself. Past Mindset from Japan made what basic JRPGs are nowadays normally known for but modern mindset from Japan is not allowed to make something that is also called Japanese Role-Playing Game even though it is also from Japan and the first JRPGs were also JRPGs because they came from Japan? And if the first RPGs would have looked different they would not have been JRPGs? Quite unfair. Japanese people have all the right in the world to influence JRPGs with their thinking just as in early days. That does not mean JRPGs die out. If anything "JRPGs as we knew them" do and even that will not happen.
    Last edited by Sephiroth; 03-09-2017 at 04:28 PM.

  14. #44
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    You're oversimplifying what I'm trying to argue: the names are based on their design philosophy, which were inspired by the developing markets and design philosophies unique to each culture, hence where the name came from. As the subgenres evolved, the names don't necessarily describe the nation of origin, but rather the style of games' it is influenced by's nation of origin. Like I said, a practitioner of Austrian Economics does not cease to be so when they aren't Austrian. Moroccan cuisine does not suddenly become British cuisine just because it's prepared in the UK. The terms JRPG and WRPG have always carried more substance to them than "this was made in Japan" or "this made in Canada", have you noticed Undertale is called a WRPG or Dark Souls isn't classified as a JRPG? (It's more of an ARPG but it WRPG way better than JRPG) That's because the concepts that come to mind when they're being used don't apply to their respective titles. We can argue that an RPG made in Japan that involves character sheets, simulated dice rolls, a morality system, and dialogue trees isn't a "true" WRPG, but it sure as hell would be misleading to refer to it as a JRPG since the audience would be expecting a radically different experience. My point is, JRPG and WRPG usually evoke different concepts, mechanics, tropes, and styles when their names are used, which is the whole purpose of giving a title a genre descriptor in the first place.

    EDIT: There is a difference between a Japanese role-playing game and a Japanese-style Role-Playing Game (JRPG).
    Last edited by Laddy; 03-09-2017 at 04:33 PM.



  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laddy View Post
    My point is, JRPG and WRPG usually evoke different concepts, mechanics, tropes, and styles when their names are used, which is the whole purpose of giving a title a genre descriptor in the first place.
    .
    Yes, but they are terms which are wildly oversimplified, outdated, and ever more confusing as fewer and fewer games in each sub-genre conform to the concepts, mechanics, 'tropes' and styles that their forebearers created; especially as more and more games from their opposing region borrow the mechanics from their counterpart (hence Dark Souls and Undertale).

    I understand why these terms were invented and how they are used, my argument is that they are incredibly reductive and woefully inadequate when it comes to grouping games together. Maybe 'JRPG' was less inappropriate when it was 1997 and we were only really getting major titles like Final Fantasy and Star Ocean localised in the English speaking world, but 20 years on that label (along with many others that define certain narrow 'sub-genres') is more of a hindrance than a help.

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