Is Dark Souls a JRPG?

[Vyk]

Star Ocean The Last Hope was pure tropes and cliches and archetypes with very little building and pure melodrama and bad writing and characterization

I assume you did not trigger the private actions in the Calnus?

It's been so long, I don't honestly know. I can say I quit when they removed Edge from command for being too melodramatic, if that helps tell you where I was in the story. I do remember having some private conversations on the ship. But I don't remember them

[Laddy]

Maybe FFXII or the MMO's but I wouldn't go that far.

[Squall Leonhart Loire]

Maybe FFXII or the MMO's but I wouldn't go that far.

Are you referring to me?

[Laddy]

Maybe FFXII or the MMO's but I wouldn't go that far.

Are you referring to me?

Yeah I just didn't know there was another page lol

[Squall Leonhart Loire]

Hmm... well he was comparing FF to the likes of Hyperdimension Neptunia and games like those. FF isn't as anime as those games but to deny anime influence altogether shows insecurity. He was really bugging that day.

[Fox]

Finally, you've utterly failed in the same area that EVERYONE who has ever made the argument against the JRPG/WRPG terms has: You were unable to produce a viable term to use in it's place. It's a genre. You KNOW it's a genre, because you were able to single it out and define it, and everyone knew exactly what you meant. It's a individual style of games and game design that follows distinct conventions that are recognized universally by gamers, and who have given it a clear and obvious term based on that style's origin and history.

Except of course, there are a fair chunk of players who consider Dark Souls a JRPG.

And I can never seem to get people to agree on exactly what criteria they consider 'JRPG'. I mean, almost without fail, people will say that both Final Fantasy Tactics and Hyperdimension Neptunia are JRPGs. But what do they share, exactly? Mechanically, FF Tactics is closer to both XCOM and Planescape: Torment than it is to Neptunia. In terms of narrative style and delivery it's much closer to those classic western CRPGs as well. And yet FFT is still widely accepted as 'JRPG'. Hell, I've seen Gravity Rush described as a JRPG!! What's the common link here? The art style is kinda anime-like? Surely that's not the depth of our genre definitions.

You're right in that critics of 'JRPG' don't provide alternatives, but that's because I feel that it's a nonsense 'genre'. It's simultaneously extraordinarily broad in scope (see the above example) while also encouraging an extremely narrow view of the games within it. I mean I cannot think of any other genre where people discuss and criticise the so-called "tropes" as much as they do for JRPG. So the reason I don't provide an alternative is because I don't think the games accepted as being within it have any right being grouped together as part of the same genre.

I would argue fairly strongly, that Final Fantasy XV is in the same genre as The Witcher 3, and not in the same genre as Final Fantasy VII. But what genre label would y'all give XV?

[Laddy]

Final Fantasy Tactics and Planescape: Torment aren't even remotely alike. This is about as bizarre of a comparison you can make. Torment is real time, dialogue-focused, nonlinear, handling metaphysical/philosophical dilemmas over battles as the main conflicts, dying is a gameplay device rather than a fail state, and all combat is optional. The only similarities is that both games involve sad dudes who can change their class. I mean, do you even know the premise of the two games? Your insistence of difference and similarities on mechanics are very very superfluous, to be honest.

I wouldn't consider FFT a JRPG per se; I'd consider it a strategy RPG because that's what it is, and that's how it's more accurately described as. Like Banner Saga, Fire Emblem, Heroes of Might & Magic, XCOM, or Disgaea (3 of each coming from each region, btw). Dark Souls is more accurately described as an WRPG over a JRPG, but it's probably more in line with games like Torchlight or Kingdom Hearts, mechanically, making it an ARPG. It's quite different from what the traditional use of JRPG conveys, games like Tales of Vesperia, Xenosaga, or Golden Sun.

Can Ramza use his Persuasion stat to convince Argath to abandon his classism? Can he sneak into various battlegrounds to avoid combat if you choose to stat him that way? Can Ramza decide, smurf it, I'm going to just stick with being a mercenary and smurf saving the world? No, because that's not the developers' intent, they wanted to deliver a finely-tuned narrative that better suits their vision, so your comparison of its narrative structure outside of its influence from European history (which can be applied to any genre) to CRPG's is very inaccurate and one-dimensional. I question your experience with games like Torment or The Witcher since you seem to have a very limited scope of what they entail.

Witcher 3 has moral choice, extensive use of non combat skills, flexibility in character advancement, and narrative/quest open-endedness to an extent that Final Fantasy XV doesn't. The goal in FFXV is to watch Noctis' story, the goal of The Witcher 3 is to tell Geralt's story. I'd argue FFVII or the Persona series is quite a bit more like Witcher 3 since it's more open-ended in character advancement (materia, etc), you can choose to act upon various plot elements in the story how'd you wish, and there's just as much emphasis on sidequests.

[Fox]

Final Fantasy Tactics and Planescape: Torment aren't even remotely alike. This is about as bizarre of a comparison you can make. Torment is real time, dialogue-focused, nonlinear, handling metaphysical/philosophical dilemmas over battles as the main conflicts, dying is a gameplay device rather than a fail state, and all combat is optional. The only similarities is that both games involve sad dudes who can change their class. I mean, do you even know the premise of the two games? Your insistence of difference and similarities on mechanics are very very superfluous, to be honest.

Can Ramza use his Persuasion stat to convince Argath to abandon his classism? Can he sneak into various battlegrounds to avoid combat if you choose to stat him that way? Can Ramza decide, smurf it, I'm going to just stick with being a mercenary and smurf saving the world? No, because that's not the developers' intent, they wanted to deliver a finely-tuned narrative that better suits their vision, so your comparison of its narrative structure outside of its influence from European history (which can be applied to any genre) to CRPG's is very inaccurate and one-dimensional. I question your experience with games like Torment or The Witcher since you seem to have a very limited scope of what they entail.

Yeah OK, maybe that game in particular was more of a stretch that would be ideal, and I'm focusing more on similarities within combat (where there are more than first appears), for example, maybe because that was how I always used to play them! So I concede it was a mistake to use CRPGs in my example and I'll instead stick more to the 'XCOM' example which is far less tenuous. Forgive me, I was rushing out my post before work and didn't think it through all the way.

I wouldn't consider FFT a JRPG per se; I'd consider it a strategy RPG because that's what it is, and that's how it's more accurately described as. Like Banner Saga, Fire Emblem, Heroes of Might & Magic, XCOM, or Disgaea (3 of each coming from each region, btw). Dark Souls is more accurately described as an WRPG over a JRPG, but it's probably more in line with games like Torchlight or Kingdom Hearts, mechanically, making it an ARPG. It's quite different from what the traditional use of JRPG conveys, games like Tales of Vesperia, Xenosaga, or Golden Sun.

And I would agree with you. But many, many people would not. You say "oh it's more accurately described as such and such," but there's no consensus about this. To many, FFT is a JRPG. Kingdom Hearts: JRPG or ARPG? Tales of Vesperia: JRPG or ARPG? In this very thread we have people saying "JRPG is a useful label because we all know what it is" while at the same time we cannot agree about whether or not Dark Souls is one.

Witcher 3 has moral choice, extensive use of non combat skills, flexibility in character advancement, and narrative/quest open-endedness to an extent that Final Fantasy XV doesn't. The goal in FFXV is to watch Noctis' story, the goal of The Witcher 3 is to tell Geralt's story. I'd argue FFVII or the Persona series is quite a bit more like Witcher 3 since it's more open-ended in character advancement (materia, etc), you can choose to act upon various plot elements in the story how'd you wish, and there's just as much emphasis on sidequests.

Which is a perfect valid judgement as well! You bring up good points why FFXV isn't as like The Witcher as I suggested, and also how FFVII and Persona (which would be pretty much undisputed as JRPGS) are more similar to The Witcher than I suggested, simply by emphasising different mechanics. My entire argument is that these sub-genre labels (particularly JRPG) are inadequate ways of grouping these games together because there is so much shared similarity across genres, any it's very difficult to get any kind of agreement on what is correct.

[Vyk]

ARPG and SRPG have fallen out of use of late as there are more action games than action ARPGs and more strategy games than SRPGs but when they were used more frequently I did regard them differently than other JRPGs. And they group nicely with games from all regions because it's about an idea more than origin. JRPG does just convey an idea. It doesn't have to contain the word Japanese at all. Hell in the 90s and early 2000s WRPGs were called cRPGs. So you could easily rename these ideas as console rpg and computer rpg even though a lot of computer style rpgs now reside on console you would describe it as similar to games that originated on computer.

Outside of really bad attempts at D&D most console rpgs originated in japan. So back then console rpg and jrpg were synonymous until things like Knights of the Old Republic became more common

Albeit console rpg was a term used with derision back then as well. PC Master Race ideology

[Laddy]

In Japan WRPG's are largely looked down upon as well, viewing rhem as unstructured and lacking in emotionality which is dismissive as hell as well.

My whole point is that JRPG and WRPG bring to mind very distinct playstyles, mechanics, and tropes so even if the terminology is outdated and arbitrary, it certainly brings elements to mind on the average gamer far more often than not, often accurately.

I mean science fiction includes films like Her and Alien, which are very different in mood, plot, and focus but we still refer to them as science fiction because they're both speculative, futuristic, and fantstical, elements one tries to convey with the term.

[Del Murder]

We should just forego these JRPG, WRPG, CRPG, LOLRPG labels entirely and for each game just describe what other games it is most like. I've found those comparisons much more useful in finding additional games I like.

[Fox]

We should just forego these JRPG, WRPG, CRPG, LOLRPG labels entirely and for each game just describe what other games it is most like. I've found those comparisons much more useful in finding additional games I like.

True mostly. "It's like X but Y" is really effective, although the downside is it requires your audience to have a very specific point of reference.

[Squall Leonhart Loire]

How about JSTWAG(Japanese Save The World Adventure Game)?

[Fox]

Get rid of the 'The' and I love it.

I love me some J-SWAG. I buy it all the time

[Squall Leonhart Loire]

Fox, are you a JRPG? :P