Controversies in Games Media

[Laddy]

Jon's a piece of trout who sympathizes with white nationalism so he and his career can get smurfed. This isn't merely a disagreement of opinion, he actively spouts white nationalist rhetoric and the responsible thing to do is to make him irrelevant so odious people like him don't become normalized.

This is coming from a guy who was a huge fan of his.

[Vyk]

My problem is the anti-customer attitude. I would have been fine at the point where they removed him and he said "that sucks, but okay", and that was it. But that wasn't it

Don't get me wrong (I've just now researched what was actually said) I don't agree with Jon, and I am fine with a company making decisions for their company. But that company got paid by backers and fans. And what Jon has expressed in the interview is sadly not very different from what a good portion of people in the United States feel/fear right now. We have elected a president with hugely and dangerously overblown opinions of a very similar nature to Jon's. Those opinions are not as rare as we'd like them to be. A good portion of America feels that way, and therefor it stands to reason that a good portion of Yooka-Laylee's fans and backers agree with Jon. As wrong as they may be, it's their right to have that opinion, and if the company gets to make a political stance with the money they gave them, then they should have the right to get that money back as their own political stance is called into question

If you don't want to have the support of a "white supremacist", then you should also be happy to give back the money given to you by white supremacists

But still, even beyond all the political BS, I am still on the grounds that anti-customer behavior is ridiculous for a company. And as someone who works in customer relations, and a gamer, I know how fanatical gamer customers can be. And you don't want to pander to every snot-nosed entitled little trout that comes knocking. But the worst thing you can do is turn away even the most mild-mannered customer asking for a refund. Customer relationships are important. And Playtonic may not need to rethink their political stance, but they sure need to rethink their customer stance

[Freya]

Ahhh no. Nope. No.

You don't get to say "Well I made you! You have to do what I want you to do or give me my money back!"

That's not how that works. You donate for whatever reasons and then that's it. You're not giving them money so you get to say how they act. You're just donating it because you liked the thing they presented to you.

[Psychotic]

I think you're right, Vyk. You have the right to remove him from your game and his racist fans have the right to not want to buy your game anymore too. If you really want to take a stand against racist dickheads then you should absolutely refund the smurfers and tell them you don't want people like them supporting your business. Instead, by axing JonTron and yet still taking the money, it looks like the original act wasn't done to take a stand against bigoted supremacy but a cynical attempt to cash in on the controversy.

[Slothy]

wait


what jontron thing? I can't watch that linked video unfortunately. You're gonna have to give me a run down of the internet dramas

http://www.thejimquisition.com/youtu...rndest-things/

Jim smurfing Sterling son did a nice piece on what he said and the backlash. It's more about youtubers being celebrities of a sort these days and being just as fair game for criticism as any other celebrity, but he uses jontron as an example.

[Vyk]

Ahhh no. Nope. No.

You don't get to say "Well I made you! You have to do what I want you to do or give me my money back!"

That's not how that works. You donate for whatever reasons and then that's it. You're not giving them money so you get to say how they act. You're just donating it because you liked the thing they presented to you.

That may be the original idea, but precedence has been set previously, unfortunately. People have "withdrew" backing from projects, I'm not sure how it works, and refunds have previously been given, and again I'm not sure how that works. But now that it's been allowed elsewhere, people should be allowed to expect the same

Even still though, I guess my problem is not even having a conversation about it. If they want to refuse refunds altogether, I don't agree but I'd be fine with that if they'd just say that. In that regard I do not believe they are doing better than No Man's Sky, the game may end up being better, for sure. But I think silence is better than a negative reaction. Telling someone "no" to their refund request would be better than blocking or banning them

I'm honestly not sure why I'm so worked up about this though. I didn't back the game, I was only recently considering buying it when it came out. I haven't watched JonTron in months, I don't agree with his stance. I should be fine with everything honestly. I just hate seeing a game that should be amazing to fans waiting for a resurgence of the golden days of 3D platforming getting tarnished by such ridiculousness

[Squall Leonhart Loire]

Even if he is of Middle Eastern descent, he most likely is seen as white. To me, he is just a light skinned Iranian but to many Americans if he didn't have an Iranian name on first sight he looks like a white guy. And besides, the United States legally considers Middle Easterners white and I have seen many join white nationalist groups.

[Del Murder]

I'm not sure I understand. The game is not out so I assumed the refunds are for pre-orders? Of course you should refund those since the purchase was not yet fulfilled. However, if people are asking for refunds of donations they provided in a gofundme or something like that then, hell, you don't get that money back! That's not how these sites work or how investments in general work. Unless they did something illegal with your money you are pretty much out of luck if you don't agree with the direction they took their company. If I were them I wouldn't ban anyone or try to repress the dialogue but I would release a nice lawyery statement about how you invest money at your own damn risk. Shoot, this isn't even a risk. It's just stupid people using excuses to get their money back.

[Freya]

Pre-orders yeah, refund that. But agreed with del. If they're asking for donation refunds, that's not how donations work.

[Psychotic]

I think you're looking at it the wrong way, you're looking at it from the point of view of the donators who believe they are entitled to a refund. I agree that's not how donation works but that's missing something important. Look at it as if you were the company. If you find racism to be so abhorrent that you will cut all business ties with an outspoken racist, why would you want to keep donations from other racists? Where's the consistency?

[Jinx]

I'm not sure I understand. The game is not out so I assumed the refunds are for pre-orders? Of course you should refund those since the purchase was not yet fulfilled. However, if people are asking for refunds of donations they provided in a gofundme or something like that then, hell, you don't get that money back! That's not how these sites work or how investments in general work. Unless they did something illegal with your money you are pretty much out of luck if you don't agree with the direction they took their company. If I were them I wouldn't ban anyone or try to repress the dialogue but I would release a nice lawyery statement about how you invest money at your own damn risk. Shoot, this isn't even a risk. It's just stupid people using excuses to get their money back.

This is exactly my stance, Del, and I'm glad you posted this because when I spoke earlier about them refunding money, I was speaking only about pre-orders.

Not donations or investments. Anyways, that money is gone now. It went to creating the game. And as you said--that's not how donations work anyways. Especially on Kickstarter, where the donator usually gets some sort of reward for x amount of money donated.

[Freya]

I think you're looking at it the wrong way, you're looking at it from the point of view of the donators who believe they are entitled to a refund. I agree that's not how donation works but that's missing something important. Look at it as if you were the company. If you find racism to be so abhorrent that you will cut all business ties with an outspoken racist, why would you want to keep donations from other racists? Where's the consistency?

Not donations or investments. Anyways, that money is gone now. It went to creating the game. And as you said--that's not how donations work anyways. Especially on Kickstarter, where the donator usually gets some sort of reward for x amount of money donated.

Basically what Jinx said, Psy. What are you going to give the donors back? You used their money to make the game. The game is about to come out. Any money they refund them would be from profits of game sales and preorders and not the donor's money. So are they just supposed to give donors some of their profit money? So they'll have to sell the game to then give out money to people? Yeah, no.

[Del Murder]

I think you're looking at it the wrong way, you're looking at it from the point of view of the donators who believe they are entitled to a refund. I agree that's not how donation works but that's missing something important. Look at it as if you were the company. If you find racism to be so abhorrent that you will cut all business ties with an outspoken racist, why would you want to keep donations from other racists? Where's the consistency?

I guess we differ as to what those donors actually are. I don't think they are also racists. I think they are just idiots. Or maybe both, but at least publicly they are just being idiotic. And I'm perfectly fine with a company keeping idiots' money. Hell, without idiots' money no company in the world would be profitable. Without racists' money either to be honest...

[Psychotic]

Basically what Jinx said, Psy. What are you going to give the donors back? You used their money to make the game. The game is about to come out. Any money they refund them would be from profits of game sales and preorders and not the donor's money. So are they just supposed to give donors some of their profit money? So they'll have to sell the game to then give out money to people? Yeah, no.

I figured that might be the response. I get it, but I'll refer you back to my initial point that the choice of money over morals when it's inconvenient suggests it was a calculated act rather than an act of conviction. Doing the right thing is rarely ever the same as doing the easy thing. So, yes, there is a price to pay for taking a stand. And I'd have more respect and admiration for the company if they chose to pay that price.

There is a way to have your cake and eat it too. You could say that you had refunded the donations of the jerkbutt hordes and now the game is short of funding and may be delayed. We do of course appreciate all of the kind donations from our incredible community and we'll still be working around the clock to make up for the funding gaps! Then you sit back and watch even more donations roll in due to the free publicity. Moral dilemma avoided, hurrah! Of course, that is even more cynical and calculating.

I guess we differ as to what those donors actually are. I don't think they are also racists. I think they are just idiots. Or maybe both, but at least publicly they are just being idiotic. And I'm perfectly fine with a company keeping idiots' money. Hell, without idiots' money no company in the world would be profitable. Without racists' money either to be honest...

I agree that they're idiots, although I think it's a nuanced situation. We can't definitely say they're all racists and I am sure many are not. With that said, having done a bit of digging and read some of the comments and tweets, there are numerous ones that definitely are.

[Del Murder]

Well, if they want to publicly come out and say 'yeah I hate Mexicans too. You guys don't hate Mexicans? Well I demand my money back!' then yeah I'd probably give them their money back or tell them they can have it back but they have go retrieve it from a bank in Mexico. (I have no idea if this issue was about Mexicans or not. It was either them or Muslims going by the odds and I just picked Mexicans because I could really go for a taco.)