Controversies in Games Media

[Vyk]

And now Atlus has threatened YouTube and Twitch users to not stream their game or face legal action if they go past a certain point, and/or have their livelihood in that medium threatened by spurious claims and strikes against their channels and accounts

People guffaw at the idea of making a living on streams and lets play or really on any kind of content creation medium, but it's still a job, it's how people eat and pay bills, and if I want to watch someone play a game for me, and pay them to do so, then it's bulltrout to threaten them with only the explanation that they don't want to spoil the game for me. If I'm watching someone else play your game, then I'm not buying your damn game, and therefor don't care if it gets spoiled

Now, I do plan on buying Persona 5, and am seriously considering buying it used in order to speak with my wallet. And the funny thing is, it's worded that "our masters in Japan" have made it this way, so the American Atlus team probably has no say in the matter whether they agree with it or not, and it'll be their finances that are on the line, since they're the ones publishing it here. This may be one of those situations like with Activision and Transformers, or BioWare and Mass Effect, where you buy the game, but don't let that money talk for you and throw a big enough hissy-fit that they never consider pulling a stunt like this again

You get one mistake like this, Atlus. Just one. Having a company that only makes niche games, stab their niche community in the back is damn near suicidal. This isn't Nintendo, this is a fairly small crowd. It doesn't take many of them to be offended to have a big impact. Maybe next time just stick with the requests and check the threats at a the door

[Psychotic]

As always, I agree with Jim Sterling. It's a noble goal to try to prevent spoilers and if you'd asked people not to show them I think you'd have seen people a lot more accommodating. To threaten to misuse copyright law to shut people down is heavy handed and wrong.

[Fynn]

Of course, we all know it's not actually about spoilers

[Skyblade]

And now Atlus has threatened YouTube and Twitch users to not stream their game or face legal action if they go past a certain point, and/or have their livelihood in that medium threatened by spurious claims and strikes against their channels and accounts

People guffaw at the idea of making a living on streams and lets play or really on any kind of content creation medium, but it's still a job, it's how people eat and pay bills, and if I want to watch someone play a game for me, and pay them to do so, then it's bulltrout to threaten them with only the explanation that they don't want to spoil the game for me. If I'm watching someone else play your game, then I'm not buying your damn game, and therefor don't care if it gets spoiled

Now, I do plan on buying Persona 5, and am seriously considering buying it used in order to speak with my wallet. And the funny thing is, it's worded that "our masters in Japan" have made it this way, so the American Atlus team probably has no say in the matter whether they agree with it or not, and it'll be their finances that are on the line, since they're the ones publishing it here. This may be one of those situations like with Activision and Transformers, or BioWare and Mass Effect, where you buy the game, but don't let that money talk for you and throw a big enough hissy-fit that they never consider pulling a stunt like this again

You get one mistake like this, Atlus. Just one. Having a company that only makes niche games, stab their niche community in the back is damn near suicidal. This isn't Nintendo, this is a fairly small crowd. It doesn't take many of them to be offended to have a big impact. Maybe next time just stick with the requests and check the threats at a the door

I think this is worth a watch on the subject. See the perspective from the point of view of a copyright lawyer (and who has tended to side on the gamer side of most of the legal copyright issues).

OVERALL, I actually think this is a good thing. Simply because it's an attempt by a company to make an effort into understanding and addressing the matter. Given that no one is even attempting to push the matter of revamping the DMCA to their representatives, this is literally the only way progress on this front will ever be made.

There are clear guidelines set forth for how they expect the content to be used. You can't upload videos where the sole focus is on the cutscenes (ie: no "Here's this story event" cutscene videos that are rampant for many games on YouTube, like the "FFXV as a movie", for example, which fairly clearly violates copyright). I think that's an understandable restriction. What's more, it offers clear and explicit authorization to make the content. Most videos are made under the defense of it being Fair Use, whether said content is Fair Use or not. However, this is an explicit authorized derivative work. This is, in itself, a good thing. It should mean LESS legal trouble going forward for those who make such work, and the copyright owner themselves, as the authorization is explicitly given by the copyright holder.

As such, if you are making a work, not as an expression of Fair Use (which again, requires the work to be transformative, used for educational or critique purposes, etcetera), but as an authorized derivative work, then this gives a fairly clear cut set of restrictions for the authorization, as well as sides with the YouTuber on one of the more vague restrictions ("use your best judgment").

I don't find it at all surprising that the only companies I know of which have made an attempt to address this issue come from Japan (Nintendo with the Creators program, and now ATLUS), as they are attempting to address a clear gap between legal systems and expectations, as well as the gap between consumer behavior, that exists between Japan and the West. I think attempting to shut down these efforts entirely is going to have an ultimately negative affect on the YouTube and streaming space going forward, if it convinces companies that such services are only going to treat them with enmity even if they try to take a step forward, which ATLUS is doing.

I honestly don't even think that any of their restrictions go too far, I just think that some comment should have been made regarding Fair Use, a warning to ensure that your content IS Fair Use if it goes beyond the bounds of these restrictions, and that ATLUS would consider whether or not the content is Fair Use before issuing a strike, as required under the Lenz vs Universal Studios court decision.

Is this an ideal? Nope, not by a long shot. But it's better than we've had in many cases, and I think it's something that can be worked with to help ensure Japanese developers that streaming and videos are not a threat to their business, and that hopefully in the future less restrictions could be needed.

[Vyk]

I actually just watched that video and legal standing aside, there's still a lot of gray. And I'm not sure what you're talking about? Nintendo and now Atlus are the only companies from Japan FIGHTING fair use, not fighting for it. There are very few, if any, western developers having any problems with how fair use is being implemented by streamers and lets players. The only time something comes up is in games like GTA where a copyrighted song plays during a stream, and even that lawyer draws questions in regards to streaming, where you're supposed to black out your stream during a boss fight or cut scene, which is ridiculous, and the fact that they've blocked UI sharing, so it's obvious the only reason these guidelines exist is because they know they can't outright block it because the technology exists to usurp that and get a capture card. Because without that technology we'd have no options, and they'd obviously be fine with that. Technology is forcing them to play the game at all. Otherwise we'd just be screwed. So no, I don't believe they're being forward thinking. And I think Nintendo is bat-trout crazy for their creator program, and as Jim Sterling pointed out, if EA had came up with Nintendo's content creator rules, and was stealing money from YouTubers, I have no doubt people would have eaten them alive and they would have been in a PR disaster until they relented and gave up on the damn thing. Nintendo is not right. They're just not EA

[Skyblade]

I actually just watched that video and legal standing aside, there's still a lot of gray. And I'm not sure what you're talking about? Nintendo and now Atlus are the only companies from Japan FIGHTING fair use, not fighting for it.

I didn't say they were fighting for Fair Use. They're not. They're ignoring it completely (and they are wrong to do so). They are, however, fighting for the future of videos and streaming, by attempting to find a common ground where the rights of both parties are clear.

There are very few, if any, western developers having any problems with how fair use is being implemented by streamers and lets players.

You clearly follow a very different section of YouTube than I do, because I hear about invalid copyright strikes all the time. Heck, need I remind you of the spat between Jim Sterling and Digital Homicide? These are NOT uncommon events at all.

The only time something comes up is in games like GTA where a copyrighted song plays during a stream, and even that lawyer draws questions in regards to streaming, where you're supposed to black out your stream during a boss fight or cut scene, which is ridiculous, and the fact that they've blocked UI sharing, so it's obvious the only reason these guidelines exist is because they know they can't outright block it because the technology exists to usurp that and get a capture card. Because without that technology we'd have no options, and they'd obviously be fine with that. Technology is forcing them to play the game at all. Otherwise we'd just be screwed.

No, it's not technology, or at least, not solely technology. It's technology combined with Western copyright law, and the popular rise of streaming and videos as a form of media consumption. This is something that Japanese developers dealing with Japanese customers simply do not have to deal with, as Japanese law is much more draconian in favor of the publisher.

And, yes, it is forward thinking. Because, believe it or not, the technology doesn't stop them. They could, if they so desired, put up a copyright strike on every single video that has any content (or any content they particularly desired to hide) from the game, they could have that strike carried with full weight thanks to the way the DMCA rules, and shut down anything regardless of how much technology people used to try to evade it.

So no, I don't believe they're being forward thinking. And I think Nintendo is bat-trout crazy for their creator program, and as Jim Sterling pointed out, if EA had came up with Nintendo's content creator rules, and was stealing money from YouTubers, I have no doubt people would have eaten them alive and they would have been in a PR disaster until they relented and gave up on the damn thing.

Jim Sterling also pointed out that disagreeing with Nintendo gives you the right to pirate their games, so you'll excuse me if I don't put too much weight into his opinions, especially on legal matters.

Also: Are you implying that this ISN'T a PR disaster for ATLUS? Because it is. The commentary on it has been almost wholly negative, and centered around how unfriendly to consumers this has been.

Nintendo is not right.

I never said they were, I said that I think the program is a step in the right direction.

They're just not EA

Thank goodness for that.

[Vyk]

I guess my problem is I'm partaking of a copyright argument when this has nothing to do with copyright. I concede all your points, and pre-emptively apologize, because I honestly thought you'd come back differently than that, and defend their way of thinking. It's a moral vs legal issue, much like your Jim Sterling argument. Jim feels that Nintendo is morally bankrupt in regards to allowing people experience their backlog, but legally they are allowed to do so

And how I wish this were just about copyright, but I know it isn't, everyone here knows it's not about copyright. Its not about fair use. And it's definitely not about spoilers

It's a bunch of suits in Japan, feeling like they're losing control, feeling like the western audience is an entitled nuisance, they're mad that we don't (and don't want to) play by their rules, and they want to "compromise" and make new rules. They see streaming and let's plays the same way they see piracy, fangames, and bootlegs. As lost revenue. They feel that anyone watching a let's play will not buy their game. And honestly, a lot of the time, they may be right. But mostly for people who were not going to buy the game in the first place. I watch let's players for the let's players, not for the games that they're playing. And if anything, they've convinced me to buy more games, not less. But these companies don't see it that way. They feel they're being robbed. And instead of opening their eyes to what's really going on, they want to be the kid who wants to take their ball and go home, because you want to play HORSE instead of Basketball. And they can't take their ball and go home. They just sold it to you. So instead, they want to run their tractor over the field and ruin the experience for you, and for anyone who was going to enjoy watching you

It doesn't help that I have no doubt that they'd ignore fair use if given the opportunity considering the threats. As stated in the video, if something happens after 7/7 that inspires a social commentary, they'd probably put a strike on the video talking about it. Atlus are now SEGA, and SEGA have copyright claimed fair used material before just to get it off of search results, to make way for the release of the sequel to whatever it is (Shining Force being the biggest example)

And what's worse, is Atlus's press release stating "our masters in Japan", because they know Atlus Japan is being crazy, they know it's a bad move, they're effectively asking forgiveness and diverting attention to the real people causing the issue

Bottom line I guess, if they want to call Let's Players theives, then they may as well just come out and say it and deal with the issue directly, where we can have a real talk about what's really bothering them, and stop hiding behind Mommy & Daddy Copyright

And PS, you're right about Western Developers calling all kinds of copyright claims, I guess when I made that statement I was thinking about actual legitimate developers. The whiny childlike asset-flippers who try too hard to do damage control when they get found out aren't really considered legitimate development studios by me. Digital Homicide, Dentola Studios, the Gary's Bad Day (or whatever it was) douche bags, and Stckli games and the like are all posers to me

[FinalxxSin]

I didn't bother looking into how long the Atlus thing would last, but I'm going to assume it was put in place as an attempted counter measure for people that get a copy and make vids/streams before the street release. If big gaming sites aren't allowed to talk about certain things until a certain point, I don't an issue with putting restrictions on the general public as well. If every store respected street date releases, this probably wouldn't be a problem.

[Skyblade]

Yeah, my argument was based in copyright and law, not the morals of it. Currently, Let's Plays exist in a sort of legal grey area, and I do view this as one of the only ways they'll step out of that nebulous status and into something with some solid legal basis and understanding, which I view as a good thing.

Morally, it's more complicated.

I can understand where ATLUS is coming from. They're scared, and I think there is some justification in them being so.

On the whole, I personally think that Let's Plays are good for gaming. They're advertising, and they help build a solid and long lasting community for a game.

But, there is also a danger to them, especially with story heavy games. If you watch a Let's Play of, say, Until Dawn... You've seen 90% of what the game offers. There's really no reason or incentive to buy it for yourself. Yes, you can make a couple different choices, and see what relatively minor things have changed. But, on the whole, you've experienced the game, and might not buy it for yourself.

One of the big reasons why people buy the Persona games is story and characters. If those are all put up online, free to access, and shown to people, ATLUS is scared that those people will go "okay, that was a great story, great characters... But I've seen it, I'll go buy another game".

This is, in my opinion, a perfectly reasonable fear. This is one of the things that copyright law is actually supposed to help with, by controlling the delivery of media, and making sure that the copyright holders don't lose out on potential revenue because people are buying from illegitimate sources.

Does this make ATLUS right for being so overly protective of it? No, no it doesn't.

But it's understandable to me. And it makes me want to work with them, to help them understand our position, to see the other side of things, and hopefully see a more reasonable path going forward.

If we, as gamers, Let's Players, and people who watch Let's Plays can allay those fears, show a bunch of incredibly conservative Japanese businessmen that our activities and interests can help their business, promote it and strengthen it, then we can, eventually, create a mutually beneficial relationship.

I don't think they've taken the right path. I don't think they have the right mindset. But I do understand their position, and I'd like to help them to understand ours.

[maybee]

And now Atlus has threatened YouTube and Twitch users to not stream their game or face legal action if they go past a certain point, and/or have their livelihood in that medium threatened by spurious claims and strikes against their channels and accounts

Eh, people have been streaming the game on Twitch and Youtube anyways. Even since the Japanese version came out.

[Slothy]

But, there is also a danger to them, especially with story heavy games. If you watch a Let's Play of, say, Until Dawn... You've seen 90% of what the game offers. There's really no reason or incentive to buy it for yourself. Yes, you can make a couple different choices, and see what relatively minor things have changed. But, on the whole, you've experienced the game, and might not buy it for yourself.

One of the big reasons why people buy the Persona games is story and characters. If those are all put up online, free to access, and shown to people, ATLUS is scared that those people will go "okay, that was a great story, great characters... But I've seen it, I'll go buy another game".

This is, in my opinion, a perfectly reasonable fear.

I actually kind of disagree. My reason being that I don't actually think people who would be willing to buy the game if the story and characters interest them will watch an entire LP before buying the game. Most who would buy it would probably watch part of an LP, decide the game looks good, and go buy it or wait until they can go buy it and play it to continue the LP. I actually think that an LP is very different from playing it as well. The player will do things you wouldn't, and often you're not just watching for the game but for the commentary and reactions of the LPer.

So ultimately I think people who would watch the whole thing without buying the game will do it because of the latter reasons rather than decide not to buy it because they saw everything. It's similar to my thoughts on piracy actually. There's this weird and counter intuitive phenomena where people who pirate seem to actually spend more on media rather than less. I imagine some of it comes down to being able to try things they may not have, like it, and then buy it, or buy the sequels, or a spin off or another thing from the same team, etc. There seems to be this belief by businesses that if people pirate they make less money because it's a zero sum game, but the reality may actually be quite a bit different.

So overall, like you, I think that LP's are ultimately good for the industry and for sales. Hopefully if Atlus takes anything away from this, it's that their overreaction has actually lead directly to people sharing as much as they can, and that doing it has meant that all the praise for Persona 5 in the media is largely being overshadowed by talk of their not so veiled threat. Like you, I can see why they thought it was the right move, but I think their understanding of the situation is simply too flawed for them to have made the right choice.

[Psychotic]

Yeah, I agree with Slothy. Until Dawn is an interesting example to bring up, because I saw an LP of the initial section of Until Dawn and thought it looked great. I stopped watching it and bought the game itself because I wanted to experience it for myself. I was right, as I bloody loved it. I watched the LP after I had beaten the game myself too because I wanted to see what the LPer did.

Most games developers, particularly with smaller indie games, show a spike in sales when the big YouTubers like PewDiePie, Markiplier, Jacksepticeye et al play their games.

[Vyk]

That's pretty much where I'm at as well. I've refused to watch many LP's due to wanting to acquire the game myself. I've bought many games due to LP's. And any game I've watched an LP of and haven't bought, I wasn't going to buy in the first place. It's not a lost sale. it's a sale that was never going to happen anyway. But in turn, like say a game like Persona, if I were not into JRPGs, I could be drawn into the community, I could enjoy an anime follow-up, I might be convinced to buy it digitally just to support the company even if I never play it, I could buy it for a friend I know that loves JRPGs but has been short on cash because I know it's a good game due to an LP. It opens a lot more doors than it closes. And convincing a developer of this is paramount. But I've yet to see a Japanese developer be convinced of anything by a western audience that wasn't some big surprise phenomenon like Bravely Default levels of "I told you so"

Atlus is a very special and different company, and even in their statement, they make it apparent that they don't want to take this stance, but Persona 5 is a special case (somehow), so I'm willing to hold my breathe for them. Far more willing than with Nintendo, Squeenix, Capcom, or Konami. If anyone over there can get with the times, it'd probably be Atlus. So here's hoping

[Slothy]

Yeah, I agree with Slothy. Until Dawn is an interesting example to bring up, because I saw an LP of the initial section of Until Dawn and thought it looked great. I stopped watching it and bought the game itself because I wanted to experience it for myself. I was right, as I bloody loved it. I watched the LP after I had beaten the game myself too because I wanted to see what the LPer did.

Most games developers, particularly with smaller indie games, show a spike in sales when the big YouTubers like PewDiePie, Markiplier, Jacksepticeye et al play their games.

Yep. I've honestly played a number of games because of seeing Day9 play them, then still watched his LP the whole way through (as far as he went anyway) because I'm not watching just for the game. His Dark Souls play throughs are the stuff of legend.

[Pumpkin]

Yep, I often use LP's as a way of determining whether I want a game for myself or not, since you get to see a lot more than from reading text and looking at screenshots. I'll stop watching the LP while I play and resume later, like others have said. Heck, sometimes I watched an LP because I had no plans to buy a game and just wanted to see what it was about and watching the LP convinced me to buy the game. Until Dawn and Among the Sleep are great examples of this