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Thread: What does Advent Children mean to you?

  1. #1

    Question What does Advent Children mean to you?

    Hello all!


    Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children has been my favorite movie ever since it came out, and for the past few years, Iíve been studying it to find out why I like it so much. This has included examining similar CGI movies to see why nothing has quite reached its caliber. I recently wrote a series of articles in which I discuss a theory that Advent Children tells a story primarily through action and visuals that can be interpreted in multiple ways.


    Iím curious to know what this film means to other people. As a CGI movie enthusiast who hasnít spent much time with the Final Fantasy VII game, I interpret Advent Childrenís story mostly through the imagery and themes, such as reunion and solitude, life and death, and mental illness, in the film itself. Over the past few months, Iíve read interpretations from Final Fantasy VII fans that I would have never thought of. One review pointed out the similarity between Cloudís relationship with Sephiroth in the game and Kadajís relationship with Cloud in the movie. Some reviewers say that Cloudís personality in the movie didnít match what they expected from what happened in the game. Others argue that it makes sense. Some say that Cloud fights alone at the end of the movie because heís the only one with a reason to fight. In the game, all his friends had personal reasons to fight Sephiroth. Others say the battle with Cloud and Sephiroth at the end of Advent Children is irredeemably pointless fanservice.


    Gathering these opinions through film reviews has been difficult though since reviews of this movie rarely discuss its storytelling or filmmaking techniques. Most reviewers simply say that the story is incomprehensible or non-existent, or they claim that the creators donít know how to make a film, donít understand their own universe, or only made this film to make money off fanservice. In Advent Childrenís case, I think this is rather insulting and disrespectful, especially when reviewers make no attempt to understand what the creators were doing and explain why it didnít work for them.


    So I thought I would find some Final Fantasy forums and ask you all directly. Why do you like or dislike this film? What does this film mean to you? Do you have favorite scenes or favorite shots? What do you like about them? Who are the children? Who is Denzel? Who or what does the wolf represent? Why did we need to see a scene of Cloudís phone falling to the bottom of a pool? What is the point of Cloud and Tifa lying in a field of flowers while whimsical music plays in the background?


    If youíd like more information/examples on this topic, you can read my articles on Advent Children on the Extra Life Community website here:


    http://community.extra-life.org/arti...e-part-1-r991/


    http://community.extra-life.org/arti...e-part-2-r999/


    http://community.extra-life.org/arti...-part-3-r1011/


    Note that Iím discussing the original film, but feel free to talk about the added/modified scenes in Advent Children Complete. Make sure to specify which version of the film youíre talking about.


    Thank you for your time!

  2. #2

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    To me it means everything. It is the sequel to Final Fantasy VII and reflects exactly what Nojima- and Nomura-san thought of it. And Advent Children is only half known by people as long as they do not read On The Way To a Smile, a book written by Final Fantasy VII scenario writer Kazushige Nojima. And the entire movie is fanservice. I hate it when fanservice is automatically treated as a bad word. It is the very essence of a company to make money and use all the power they have to do so. People just hate to see something they claim they could have done better while seeing that they did not even understand essential parts of what they loved. And that is about everything life.

    And Final Fantasy VII Advent Children has a fantastic story. It is a short story about life going on with the immediate consequences of saving the world. The movie gives Cloud a natural behaviour based on his normal character + what happened in the first game which works together in a very believable way. And on top of that of course we once again get to see the guy who always resists from fading away. Which is incredible in On The Way To A Smile because it gives Sephiroth an even more human description for such an inhuman character: He has a natural fear of death seeing it as the non-existence of his very self, directly opposing to Aerith's view of that. Which is by the way a very understandable and logical way to think, psychologically spoken as the very self, the consciousness is simply what we are. And even Aerith's thinking of "ascending to a new state of being" does not directly explain if you still exist or not. Because if it is just metaphorical, then "you" still don't exist anymore and just the leftovers of you. So Sephiroth would actually be right - very fitting indeed considering I also would not want to give up but who knows - maybe Aerith's view does not even mean we do not cease to exist as person. And that is just one small part of what we get to know. There is a lot more to the book and movie.

    And there was also a reason in-universe for the fight with Sephiroth.

    1. He is the evil guy. If he wins, everything is doomed.
    2. By the end of the day he is inevitably and always something CLoud needs to deal with to overcome obstacle x and cope with the past.
    3. Sephiroth himself holds a grudge against Cloud and wanted to show off that it was all his doing so he wanted to meet Cloud face to face.

    "
    Sephiroth and Jenova gain new powers as the plot demands, ...Even Nomura mentioned in earlier interviews that the original story of VII created several problems that made the script somewhat implausible, but simply retcon what they could so the film could have all the elements fans wanted to see like a rematch fight between Cloud and Sephy. "

    That is absolute nonsense as Sephiroth's alien powers that he uses in the movie and to return stand in direct relation to the abilities that he has used before. And I would love to see the "interview" that you have read. By the end of the day the writer is Nojima-san who wrote the powers in the first installments as well and Sephiroth's transcendence, his ability to project himself into other things and shapeshift and all perfectly fit - the only really new thing is his "linking his existence to memories" and even that stands in direct relation to the first installments. Also even gaining new powers "as the plot demands" for a highly inhuman entity that inherits the powers of an alien is nothing special. You are also making it yourself always very easy with "it is weak writing if the person cannot implement a certain part of the story" -> "well, the person can make this decision for several purposes like it would disrupt their narrative flow or their just want a certain focus on another aspect more" -> "if that person were a good writer they would know how to do it" -> "but then the person would not always do and write the way they want to -> "if that person were a good writer they would do this and that". You are always trying to construct this mirage of an impenetrable argument that because of any reason you want to insert the person is a good writer but by the end of the day what that person writes and how they choose to write and choose to focus for a certain narrative flow the person is not automatically a bad writer or writes a bad story. And I am sorry that I have to say that but I have yet to see you guys providing some actual writing skills and actual communication skills. Truth be told most people here like other people all over the world just want to see what they want to see and that's it, and yes, you do, because you are obviously aso leaving out parts of the story or justify your arguments with totally irrelevant stuff like "well, Hironobu Sakaguchi's view of the franchise ... and therefore I too", as if that be an actual argument. You don't like it, fine. You do not need to like it. And yes, sometimes things make less sense - it is fiction, it does not matter for the existence of that world as it is not bound to those rules but in that case I understand that sometimes it can disturb someone's entertainment. But don't think being the forum's "resident critic" and always adding your great coffee + monitor smiley adds any plausibility and credibility to your posts. By the end of the day I also have seen a lot of questionable stuff from you.
    Last edited by Sephiroth; 07-12-2017 at 06:35 PM.

  3. #3
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    A cash grab. To me the film is pretty much Square realizing at the time that they had bled away the creative talent that had made the company a force to be reckoned with in the 90s, and simply took a lesson from the modest success of X-2. They discovered they could easily make back the money they lost from the Spirits Within and the bad PR caused from that whole mess by distracting everyone by bringing back the game that made the company famous.

    While I will not say that anything is wrong with the animation, I do feel the choreography and over-the-top visuals clash with what the fans saw within the game itself, which is to say that while it had its fair share of visually stunning and physics defying shenanigans, it never strayed as far into the cartoonish levels witness in the film. This choreography and wanton destruction not only clash with the ultra-realistic visual art style, but pigeonholes the film with the deluge of campy visual choreography fights that films like The Matrix and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon had popularized in the late 90s/early 00s and popularized a whole medium that is frankly diffiult to take serious anymore.

    The plot is weak, largely because someone thought it would be a great idea to release it as a novel separate from the film, which ultimately weakens the films ability to tell an actual compelling story because so many important plot elements are cut out. Even the film directors themselves acknowledged this with the films later Director's Cut trying to fix this issue. Despite all that, the story is contrived and only serves as a means to move the viewer from the action scenes which make up the majority of the film, giving the movie the same format as a porn film. While there is a story in some porn films, it only serves the purpose of stringing together why all these people are having sex, and thus is of little importance to the film.

    Sephiroth and Jenova gain new powers as the plot demands, Cloud is placed in a situation to destroy his character growth from the game and simply come to terms with it again, Tifa is still chasing after Cloud and utterly useless without him, and the rest of the cast plots are edited out and placed in the novelization. Aerith continues to go through her awkward Messiah imagery despite the fact that it once again detracts the viewer from VIIs central theme of the Planet itself being a living entity that interconnects us all. Rufus and the rest of Shin-Ra feel like caricatures of their true selves as Reno suddenly becomes a hyperactive physical comedy act when his original incarnation was much more subdued and Rufus goes from cartoonishly evil to suddenly being sleazy but pretty nice guy. The same guy who preached about running the world through fear. This is also despite the fact that watching the cutscene of his "death from within the game makes the hand wave excuse of his survival in the supplement material feel completely unrealistic. Even Nomura mentioned in earlier interviews that the original story of VII created several problems that made the script somewhat implausible, but simply retcon what they could so the film could have all the elements fans wanted to see like a rematch fight between Cloud and Sephy.

    So I can't really get behind the writing for this piece of film because it can't really stand on its own as a story, and what plot is there simply exists for fanservice. Advent Children can be a fun fluff film, but frankly I feel The Spirits Within was better because it actually had some substance and a message to it, a message as subtle as train crashing through a fine china shop, but a message nonetheless. I mean what was the point of ACs story? For Cloud to stop feeling sorry for himself and be the hero he wanted to be? Didn't he already do that in the game?

    So yeah, this film was made to make use of all the money Square poured into making a high-end CGI animation studio for The Spirits Within, and to try and wipe that stain of a venture out of the minds of the fans by milking their nostalgia. At least we got some good music from Nobuo Uematsu from it.

    Last edited by Wolf Kanno; 07-12-2017 at 09:57 AM.

  4. #4
    fat_moogle's Avatar
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    dilly dally shilly shally
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    disc jockey to your heart krissy's Avatar
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    i really liked it
    and the long version fleshes it out a bit more

    it had one of the most meta/emotional scenes of the series for me (aeris's hand during bahamut fight)

  6. #6
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    Ugh...

    Okay two things I'm going to say before I answer your rambling exposition, and the mods will likely slap me down for this...

    First, we have a nice button below our posts that says "Reply with Quote" if you really wanted to discuss something with a particular person, please use this feature cause I, and many other forum goers, only check threads with new posts, and having you respond to something by modifying your previous posts doesn't help anyone since the thread won't update to show there is new content

    Secondly, It also makes your post very disjointed to new readers of the topic since you're quoting a discussion that technically hasn't started yet on the thread timeline. There is no reason you can't use a very convenient feature out of consideration for other people. Now I'll shut up and stop acting like a mod.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
    That is absolute nonsense as Sephiroth's alien powers that he uses in the movie and to return stand in direct relation to the abilities that he has used before. And I would love to see the "interview" that you have read. By the end of the day the writer is Nojima-san who wrote the powers in the first installments as well and Sephiroth's transcendence, his ability to project himself into other things and shapeshift and all perfectly fit - the only really new thing is his "linking his existence to memories" and even that stands in direct relation to the first installments. Also even gaining new powers "as the plot demands" for a highly inhuman entity that inherits the powers of an alien is nothing special.
    Even if it is written by the original author, its still a cop out writing technique and one that is overused in several mediums where the author has to somehow save their villain from certain death for the inevitable sequel. It also doesn't make sense that a guy whom the novella reveals is using the last of his will power to stay existing and even forgot his original form can somehow fully resurrect when one of his shadow copies gets his hands on what little of Jenova is left and come back ten times more powerful when he died back when he had the full body of Jenova, knowledge of the lifestream, and had absorbed a health amount of it. Rule of Cool can't save such sloppy writing that was obviously just there so fans could have their rematch fight; despite common sense dictating that it's all bulltrout and Cloud should have beatdown what logically would have been a very weakened Sephiroth. Apparently there is a novella somewhere that reveals that Jenova is secretly Cells sister.

    You are also making it yourself always very easy with "it is weak writing if the person cannot implement a certain part of the story" -> "well, the person can make this decision for several purposes like it would disrupt their narrative flow or their just want a certain focus on another aspect more" -> "if that person were a good writer they would know how to do it" -> "but then the person would not always do and write the way they want to -> "if that person were a good writer they would do this and that". You are always trying to construct this mirage of an impenetrable argument that because of any reason you want to insert the person is a good writer but by the end of the day what that person writes and how they choose to write and choose to focus for a certain narrative flow the person is not automatically a bad writer or writes a bad story.
    You're getting a little off topic here, but if you want an answer as to why I feel that cutting apart a plot to tell in a different medium than the main event, I will point out the fact that for many FF fans going into the film with only the knowledge of the game, Denzel is kind of a jarring experience since he would appear to such people as to coming out of nowhere. Similarly, the three Sephy clones also come out of nowhere, but at least fans can guess their origin at least. I'm not even against the idea of writing separate stories to expand smaller characters, but these two sets of characters were important to the main narrative, so to have it removed from the main event and left for supplement material is just a bad move and you don't even need to be some award winning author to see that. I simply feel the film should have spent a few minutes getting the viewer up to speed on what's going on because a film is usually meant to be a self contained experience. I mean Star Wars would be a pretty jarring film to watch if the whole Cantina scene had been cut from the film because George Lucas felt it would work better as a novel he can sell on the side. You would be left wondering who Han and Chewy are since they just kind of show up with little introduction. Yet it would be okay if George left the scene in place, but still wrote the novel anyway that expands the scenes in ways he couldn't for the film, because it wouldn't really hurt the films narrative and flow. That's the real issue with Squenix's cutting branches. You're promoting a game/film, why are you taking out content for other mediums when the works rarely stand on their own and it weakens the main event?

    I'll clarify my stance on supplement material, I don't like it when it remains exclusive from the main work its suppose to be supporting. For example, I feel FFXV would have been a better game as a narrative had Kingsglaive remained within the game. The film was okay, but I didn't feel it warranted being its own thing. After playing FFXV, I feel it would have made the earlier chapters more exciting, and easier to invest in the story and world, had it remained part of the earlier chapters. I don't feel a lot of fans would argue with me on this one as many people cite the early chapters have little in the way of a compelling story. I feel FFXIII should have had its novella included within the main game because it made it nearly impossible for me to sympathize or care about the characters and world when I was thrown into the plot in media res and all the story bits that would help me understand their motivations and what they were like before the story began to help me care about them, it didn't and I instead wasted forty hours wondering why I was still playing. I also don't really have time to read all the content. I have a day job I hate and bills that keep me chained there and sometimes I want to read, watch a movie, or play a game, and its simply hard to enjoy a gutted story because no one told me I had to read the 15 part web series prequel to it, of which I really don't want to.

    If Nojima and Nomura were really worried about wasting just five minutes to give the viewer a recap of why so and so is here and what there dealio is, then maybe they could have cut it from one of the films many over the top fight scenes. Just saying, if the characters and story were really that important, they could have spent a bit more time on them within the film in order to make it a more contained story piece. Its a dick move to do this and I highly doubt its there for artistic integrity and more because the parent company needs an excuse for fans to shelve out an extra twenty bucks for the Ultimate Edition.


    And I am sorry that I have to say that but I have yet to see you guys providing some actual writing skills and actual communication skills.
    I feel that if I'm this hard on a guy who is actually making money off their writing, then logic would make it pretty obvious that I'm probably ten times harsher on myself. I don't upload any of my work on here because I think it's garbage as well and I'm frankly too embarrassed to let other people read any of my stuff because I have such a low opinion of it.

    Whether my skills are good or not is completely debatable and I've been told I have at least good ideas. I can say for certain that I can't write dialogue to save my life, and I blame it all on consuming more pretentious stories where characters go off on philosophical tirades about the meaning of being a man or whether time is an illusion, which makes it hard come up with a natural sounding conversation a middle age couple would have over dinner after another boring day.

    I can say that writing, film, and game design have fascinated me for such a long time that I regularly consume any media discussing the process of making all three, so I at least have an extensive "book smart" so to speak on the topics at hand, but that doesn't really mean anything at the end of the day.

    Truth be told most people here like other people all over the world just want to see what they want to see and that's it, and yes, you do, because you are obviously also leaving out parts of the story or justify your arguments with totally irrelevant stuff like "well, Hironobu Sakaguchi's view of the franchise ... and therefore I too", as if that be an actual argument.
    I say the Sakaguchi comment because I frankly feel its a great idea and something that the series was built on originally. I find it amusing that you're trying to call me out on this seeing how you yourself were simply saying that any writing changes in AC are fine since it has one of the games original writers working on it. You call out Word of God more than anyone, and while I agree with Sakaguchi's original intention for the franchise, I state that to simply explain why I feel that Squenix's idea to franchise individual titles is a bad idea because I don't feel it adds creativity to the world, I feel it lessens the original. Some things were meant to stand alone and while not all sequels are bad, most are. I also tend to want as many of the original people working on a title, but frankly my opinion has begun to change on that front since I realize that people change and some works are simply as much as a product of their time as the people who work on them and lightning rarely strikes twice.

    I'm not going to respond to the rest of this since its largely off topic and mostly inflammatory against me. I will simply say that it would be best for us to focus on the topic at hand and leave such matters to private discourse. As for the reference, I will admit that I was mistaken and the interview I was referencing was not from any of the official guide books but rather an old interview with the main creative staff in Dorimaga magazine if that helps.

  7. #7
    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    And hey, ive posted TONS of my writing here and I completely agree with Wolf on this

  8. #8
    Crazy Scot. Cid's Knight Shauna's Avatar
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    People can have different opinions, no need for things to be made personal.

    Carry on with your discussions on Advent Children and how it is a movie that exists, for better or worse.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    First, we have a nice button below our posts that says "Reply with Quote" if you really wanted to discuss something with a particular person, please use this feature cause I, and many other forum goers, only check threads with new posts, and having you respond to something by modifying your previous posts doesn't help anyone since the thread won't update to show there is new content

    Secondly, It also makes your post very disjointed to new readers of the topic since you're quoting a discussion that technically hasn't started yet on the thread timeline. There is no reason you can't use a very convenient feature out of consideration for other people. Now I'll shut up and stop acting like a mod.
    You should know from my other posts that I indeed do use the quote button. I simply used the quotation marks because I was not home when I wrote this and had no time to correct the broken quote that I had. So I used the quotation marks instead.


    Even if it is written by the original author, its still a cop out writing technique and one that is overused in several mediums where the author has to somehow save their villain from certain death for the inevitable sequel.
    He saved the villain with the same kind of technique he wrote for the first installment - a skill that is not even the ordinary Reunion but simply the shapeshifting ability he used. Sephiroth resisted the lifestream and travelled through it in FFVII already. Then he made use of Jenova's body after initiating the Reunion he shapeshifted the body into an exact duplicate of his own to run around in it while regenerating inside of a giant crystal. Sephiroth has the power to, let's call it in a funny way, use his consciousness like Wireless Lan. He can exist lose of one specific body and project himself into bodies and control them. Which is one of his greatest powers as it is one of his basic "a highly powerful entity with Jenova cells can willingly control the cells, even when not in his own body" aspects. If anything you can say it was "lazy" that he used it again. As a matter of fact if Nojima-san would have wanted to make it again more overkill he would also have made use of the fact that there was no reason for the Silver Haired Men to search the cells because Sephiroth can use them no matter where they are. But he did not. I think you are blaming Nojima-san way too much just because you dislike him as a writer, not seeing how he indeed did write several things that many would see as both appropriate as well as a good choice instead of something else that many others would rant on about as real "asspulls" as the kids would say.

    It also doesn't make sense that a guy whom the novella reveals is using the last of his will power to stay existing and even forgot his original form can somehow fully resurrect when one of his shadow copies gets his hands on what little of Jenova is left and come back ten times more powerful when he died back when he had the full body of Jenova, knowledge of the lifestream, and had absorbed a health amount of it.
    It makes direct sense with the rules established for Sephiroth's power. First of all, Nojima-san would have never had the obligation to write that Sephiroth became weaker and was about to lose himself to the lifestream. But he did so at least there was some kind of narrative difference and drive for Sephiroth to do what he did instead of simply going all "oh, no I am back" and making him absolutely invincible. So he was not even treated like what he would normally be if you would actually consider all of his powers and using them in the most efficient way possible. And do you see me saying Nojima-san is a bad writer because of that because he did not let Sephiroth, a highly intelligent person, use them like this? No. Because I know it would be absolute overkill.

    Second, one of the Jenova powers gives the ability to read minds. It seems you have read On The Way To A Smile so you should know about the whole existential link and all. Kadaj and the others were individual beings, brought back by Sephiroth with him, "living on in them" and them being a part of him even though they are other people and existed once as people that had nothing to do with Sephiroth. They had no idea about their relation with Sephiroth other than that he would return by reuniting. The entire drive to reunite and Sephiroth all the time, it is a dumb word in this situation but let's call it "secretly" lurking behind and making use of the powers gave him enough opportunity to reshape the memories of his own image and thus restore both mentally and physically. Controlling Jenova cells, changing form, reading minds.

    ... despite common sense dictating that it's all bulltrout and Cloud should have beatdown what logically would have been a very weakened Sephiroth. Apparently there is a novella somewhere that reveals that Jenova is secretly Cells sister.
    What you say has nothing to do with common sense. You just want it to be "bulltrout" and the story is directly conform to the stance of the writers about the power scaling of Sephiroth and Cloud. How do you come to the conclusion that a - where it matters - fully restored Sephiroth that you see as weakened, is defeated by Cloud with ease, a person who is all the time and he himself even admitted, way way weaker than Sephiroth and only ever shown to be dominating in power whenever he follows the fairytale/shonen way of writing that "he gets stronger whenever he needs to protect someone/he fights for what is important for him/he fights with the one he loves/et cetera"? There would not have been a single aspect of the story where Sephiroth would have been defeated in any justified way other than the one they used: The final moment of the battle. Because it followed the way of how Cloud can defeat Sephiroth. Sephiroth cannot even be that "weakened" considering his will is directly related to his power and this will is even for years considered to be the absolute strongest in the Compilation. He reads the Lifestream. He resists it because of his will (only exception after the first game, obviously). That means he can use the power to get stronger. This makes his will stronger. And so on, and so on. Sephiroth WAS weakened. Then he recovered.

    Denzel is kind of a jarring experience since he would appear to such people as to coming out of nowhere.
    That is purely subjective. I knew AC before the novella and never had a problem with Denzel.

    Similarly, the three Sephy clones also come out of nowhere, but at least fans can guess their origin at least.
    They are no clones, even the FFVII "replicas" are far from that. And Kadaj even hints that they are "fragments" as well as that they want the Reunion and that Sephiroth will come back. And Vincent also explains what Kadaj is. I will give you THAT one, because semantically spoken Vincent's explanation is highly misleading. The book really only goes into the detail that they "are Sephiroth but also are not" and actually are three dead guys that he found in the lifestream and made use of them.

    You would be left wondering who Han and Chewy are since they just kind of show up with little introduction. Yet it would be okay if George left the scene in place, but still wrote the novel anyway that expands the scenes in ways he couldn't for the film, because it wouldn't really hurt the films narrative and flow. That's the real issue with Squenix's cutting branches. You're promoting a game/film, why are you taking out content for other mediums when the works rarely stand on their own and it weakens the main event?
    In which way does not knowing more about Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo hurt the movie? By that logic the book is also "bad" because it only gives like 1 more detail about them. The question might be silly because you dislike Final Fantasy VII in general and your answer will be most likely "the book IS bad" but the point is, Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo are, despite being present in the movie not nearly as relevant as people as you might think. And that is exactly what it is about. Because the movie really only wants to present you some tools to "show Sephiroth without actually showing him and in the end really showing him". Do you know how many people in the last 12 years I have ever met or read from that complained about not knowing about the three Silver Haired Men? Not many at all. I only ever read "who were they?" and I answered and they said "ah, okay". They are fragments. (They once were normal guys, not ready to accept death.) Sephiroth uses them to return. They represent Sephiroth. And that's all that is important for the plot. Everything else would lead away from that.

    I'll clarify my stance on supplement material, I don't like it when it remains exclusive from the main work its suppose to be supporting. For example, I feel FFXV would have been a better game as a narrative had Kingsglaive remained within the game. The film was okay, but I didn't feel it warranted being its own thing. After playing FFXV, I feel it would have made the earlier chapters more exciting, and easier to invest in the story and world, had it remained part of the earlier chapters.
    I think Kingsglaive is a fantastic example. I watched it before the main game. And therefore I knew what happened. And I had absolutely no problem considering "ah, okay that is what happened between chapter 1 and 2. But what Kingsglaive could not do, no matter if it was included or not was solve problems of the main scenario and focus of the game. Which is exactly why I am so glad that there will be more to give further explanation.

    I feel FFXIII should have had its novella included within the main game because it made it nearly impossible for me to sympathize or care about the characters and world when I was thrown into the plot in media res and all the story bits that would help me understand their motivations and what they were like before the story began to help me care about them, it didn't and I instead wasted forty hours wondering why I was still playing.
    But half of the novella is in the game as flashbacks? I agree some more flashbacks that made them more human and all like Lightning swearing on her mother's grave to be there for Serah or Serah and Snow buying the knife while laughing about how Lightning would look with a plushie or the power plant thing with Dahj or Cid and Lightning's talk would have been cool. I also understand that you might think it would be better for it to be in the game to make you feel more immersed but I never ever had a problem taking all of that into account. This must be a personal problem.

    If Nojima and Nomura were really worried about wasting just five minutes to give the viewer a recap of why so and so is here and what there dealio is, then maybe they could have cut it from one of the films many over the top fight scenes. Just saying, if the characters and story were really that important, they could have spent a bit more time on them within the film in order to make it a more contained story piece. Its a dick move to do this and I highly doubt its there for artistic integrity and more because the parent company needs an excuse for fans to shelve out an extra twenty bucks for the Ultimate Edition.
    I feel like in a way I have covered this already but if there needs to be more clarity I will answer to that as well.

    I feel that if I'm this hard on a guy who is actually making money off their writing, then logic would make it pretty obvious that I'm probably ten times harsher on myself.
    Psychologically spoken this is not obvious at all. I cannot even start listing the endless amount of cases and reasons why you could criticise someone like you do and still not do the same thing for yourself. It would already start with having an incredibly inflexible self-concept and not being ready to do anything against it while on the other hand reflecting all of that by instead criticising exactly the same thing on other people, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. The possibilities are endless, you see.

    ... and I've been told I have at least good ideas
    That I can agree with.

    I find it amusing that you're trying to call me out on this seeing how you yourself were simply saying that any writing changes in AC are fine since it has one of the games original writers working on it.
    And how in the world is that "amusing"? A story is something someone composes and yes, this "word of god" that you are calling it can also include so called "retroactive continuity". Whenever Nojima-san writes something that is directly conform, it is fine. He is one of those he decides. Whenever he decides to change something of what he wrote before, fine, he is one of those who decides. Saying retcons (if they actually happen) are not following "the word of god" is like saying "you can never change what you said in your life/correct yourself and everything needs to be the first stance you have had for the rest of your life". I respect Sakaguchi-san a lot. But he is neither an officially employed writer for Final Fantasy VII as it stands right now, nor does his stance about sequels and going on and all mean anything about the "word of god" that affects that fictional universe or how fans should see that. If he was still working for Square and said something about the game the story stuff could be different if he were a writer. But even then stances like what should or should not have further installments are nothing that should affect anyone. No person working for Square can affect me when it comes to that because it is something completely different from me saying "that person said this detail x is like y in the game". It just is not the same thing.

    I'm not going to respond to the rest of this since its largely off topic and mostly inflammatory against me. I will simply say that it would be best for us to focus on the topic at hand and leave such matters to private discourse. As for the reference, I will admit that I was mistaken and the interview I was referencing was not from any of the official guide books but rather an old interview with the main creative staff in Dorimaga magazine if that helps.
    It was not "inflammatory" against you. I am simply responding in the same manner you once did by without calling my name and yet blunt enough talk about the posts of people who sleep with the Ultimania Omega (paraphrased by me, definitely not respectful and with some very obvious stance), so it is not like you never "tried" anything. Maybe I am wrong about you having talked about me that time? But I can't help feeling that it was meant to target me for real.


    Sorry, Shauna.
    Last edited by Sephiroth; 07-13-2017 at 06:28 PM.

  10. #10
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    I mean, it probably doesn't help that you have the same name as the main villain

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fynn View Post
    I mean, it probably doesn't help that you have the same name as the main villain
    Hey, it is no secret that Sephiroth is my most favourite fictional character but nothing I say is anything made up. I will not start posting anything like "it was absolutely logical that Sephiroth came back because *insert reason here that has nothing to do with Nojima-san's writing*. I love ALL Final Fantasys. That does not mean I am not critical towards them. I am very critical towards FFXV, for example. I simply dislike all the bashing of several official bodies just because someone disliked anything and then did not even give an understandable reason. If the person just said "I hate it, I think it is bad" or "I disliked it because 'insert reason that is understandable" THEN I am absolutely fine with it. By the end of the day no one needs me to be/be not fine with it. It does not matter. But I at least want to clarify things.

    To add more topic-related fairness I will edit this post once I have more time and make it a pro and contra post for what happend in AC.
    Last edited by Sephiroth; 07-13-2017 at 06:12 PM.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    It also doesn't make sense that a guy whom the novella reveals is using the last of his will power to stay existing and even forgot his original form can somehow fully resurrect when one of his shadow copies gets his hands on what little of Jenova is left and come back ten times more powerful when he died back when he had the full body of Jenova, knowledge of the lifestream, and had absorbed a health amount of it. Rule of Cool can't save such sloppy writing that was obviously just there so fans could have their rematch fight; despite common sense dictating that it's all bulltrout and Cloud should have beatdown what logically would have been a very weakened Sephiroth. Apparently there is a novella somewhere that reveals that Jenova is secretly Cells sister.
    I’m not sure what you guys are arguing about but didn’t Sephiroth appear as several horrible monster-human hybrids in the game? How is appearing in the movie as a normal human that can fly, wield a sword, manipulate children, taint the Lifestream, and die after a single omnislash more powerful than his form in the game where he killed a lot of people, summoned an asteroid, required ~nine people to defeat him, and had all of Jenova or whatever?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    Denzel is kind of a jarring experience since he would appear to such people as to coming out of nowhere. Similarly, the three Sephy clones also come out of nowhere, but at least fans can guess their origin at least. I'm not even against the idea of writing separate stories to expand smaller characters, but these two sets of characters were important to the main narrative, so to have it removed from the main event and left for supplement material is just a bad move and you don't even need to be some award winning author to see that. I simply feel the film should have spent a few minutes getting the viewer up to speed on what's going on because a film is usually meant to be a self contained experience.
    I agree that I would have liked one more scene of introduction for Denzel. One of the few additions I like in Advent Children Complete is where Cloud decides to take Denzel home from the church. But I disagree that excluding the rest is a bad move.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
    He saved the villain with the same kind of technique he wrote for the first installment - a skill that is not even the ordinary Reunion but simply the shapeshifting ability he used. Sephiroth resisted the lifestream and travelled through it in FFVII already. Then he made use of Jenova's body after initiating the Reunion he shapeshifted the body into an exact duplicate of his own to run around in it while regenerating inside of a giant crystal. Sephiroth has the power to, let's call it in a funny way, use his consciousness like Wireless Lan. He can exist lose of one specific body and project himself into bodies and control them. Which is one of his greatest powers as it is one of his basic "a highly powerful entity with Jenova cells can willingly control the cells, even when not in his own body" aspects.
    This is precisely why a detailed explanation of how Sephiroth came back to life and where Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz came from didn’t exist in the movie. It’s complicated, it’s strange, it would probably ruin the pacing, and at the end of the day, probably only diehard fans of FFVII would care about it in this detail.


    As it is, the movie explains that Kadaj is a larval form of Sephiroth and his similarity to his brothers suggests that they have a similar relationship with Sephiroth. The only thing Kadaj is missing to transform is Jenova, and when he gets Jenova, he transforms. At the end of the movie, Kadaj disappears back into the Lifestream, which suggests that’s where he came from in the first place.


    I think this is explanation enough when the details of how Sephiroth came back to life have nothing to do with Cloud’s story, which is what the movie is ultimately about. This isn’t lazy writing. Most authors agree that you shouldn’t info dump stuff that doesn’t matter into your story. The author needs to know all these details to create a cohesive world, but he isn’t obligated to bore his viewers with them. In this case, fans who care about the details can go read the novella in stories where those details advance the plot. What's in the movie is enough for its story… unless you want to sit there and claim that excluding boring, irrelevant explanations is bad writing.


    While Advent Children is a sequel, it also functions very well at introducing newcomers to Final Fantasy. This movie was my introduction to the games, and I don’t think it would attract new people as well if it hit them with more complex details and terms from the game.


    (Sorry, Sephiroth. I’m on your side. I’m just defending the movie from a different perspective.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    For example, I feel FFXV would have been a better game as a narrative had Kingsglaive remained within the game. The film was okay, but I didn't feel it warranted being its own thing. After playing FFXV, I feel it would have made the earlier chapters more exciting, and easier to invest in the story and world, had it remained part of the earlier chapters.
    Just throwing this out there because it’s my goal to say it as much as possible. Kingslgaive is garbage in almost every way, and the game is lesser because Noctis was excluded from the events that take place within it.
    Last edited by silentfuzzle; 07-13-2017 at 09:07 PM.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by silentfuzzle View Post
    I’m not sure what you guys are arguing about but didn’t Sephiroth appear as several horrible monster-human hybrids in the game? How is appearing in the movie as a normal human that can fly, wield a sword, manipulate children, taint the Lifestream, and die after a single omnislash more powerful than his form in the game where he killed a lot of people, summoned an asteroid, required ~nine people to defeat him, and had all of Jenova or whatever?
    Well, to be honest, whether he appears as Humanoid Sephiroth, Rebirth Sephiroth or Sepher Sephiroth does not really mean anything about his current power because he still wields the inner strength that he has gotten by simply bathing in the lifestream. The metamorphosis in FFVII was just a simple effect of his power gain. That does not mean he does not have the power in a human form - do not forget Sephiroth can shapeshift anyway so he could get back to that form without any problems. But I know that you just wanted to answer to point out that the human form does not necessarily indicate that he was massively stronger than in the final battle - not really appropriate considering he created his own corrupted lifestream and even scared away Aerith while laughing at her so she had to call out for the Cetra to purify parts of the lifestream again but I know what you mean.

    Denzel is kind of a jarring experience since he would appear to such people as to coming out of nowhere. Similarly, the three Sephy clones also come out of nowhere, but at least fans can guess their origin at least. I'm not even against the idea of writing separate stories to expand smaller characters, but these two sets of characters were important to the main narrative, so to have it removed from the main event and left for supplement material is just a bad move and you don't even need to be some award winning author to see that. I simply feel the film should have spent a few minutes getting the viewer up to speed on what's going on because a film is usually meant to be a self contained experience.
    I agree that I would have liked one more scene of introduction for Denzel. One of the few additions I like in Advent Children Complete is where Cloud decides to take Denzel home from the church. But I disagree that excluding the rest is a bad move.

    At the end of the movie, Kadaj disappears back into the Lifestream, which suggests that’s where he came from in the first place.
    I would not directly say it has to mean that automatically because dissolving and becoming a part of the lifestream is normal in FFVII - especially considering everything at one point already was a part of it. I know you mean "not too long ago and he was taken from the lifestream as manifestation/host for Sephiroth's plans" but still.


    unless you want to sit there and claim that excluding boring, irrelevant explanations is bad writing.
    As a fan who is interested I do not call that boring but I agree that it can be distracting, especially for a movie that is supposed to be short and all. Exactly why you also have to reduce to the characters to certain aspects and then risk running into the claim that they are "one-dimensional". Well, of course Ghost Aerith will not show her funny side when it is not needed for the movie at all. Of course Cloud does not show his arrogant side (that he even has while not confabulating) when his self-critical side directly flows with his sadness and fits this whole Geostigma thing.

    When it comes to THAT, this I must say could have been shown a bit more in flashbacks and explained. The novella does explain it thoroughly and the movie tackles it just a bit. The Geostigma and people like Cloud having it because of reason xyz indeed could have been better in the movie. That I guess is more relevant than the whole Kadaj, Loz, Yazoo question because while both has sort of an explanation in the movie and also in the book, the Geostigma in the movie is also a way more present factor as it affects the entire planet again (not really all people but all over the world).


    (Sorry, Sephiroth. I’m on your side. I’m just defending the movie from a different perspective.)
    I actually wondered why you explained me something I knew, then I noticed that that was not even your point but that you were only using my post to point something out.

    I think the movie did a good approach of making true what the originally wanted. One of their initial points for the games was "Sephiroth returns again". That is why they wanted to call the movie "Reunion". But they did not want to be blunt about it so they used "Advent" reflecting Sephiroth coming back. And as they also wanted Children in the title as they wanted the children to play some sort of role in the movie they then went with "Advent Children". And theme-wise they had a lot of natural writing directly related to Final Fantasy VII-1. A lot of people are just not invested enough to see that THIS stuff indeed is also in one way or the other in the game. They rather read their Brittenham or Wikia interpretations or other stuff and make Sephiroth Jenova's marionette or say that he wants to merge with her - which is not only in one way redundant but in another way also contradicted by the plot and Sephiroth's psychology illogical as well and all that other stuff and expect multi-facetted, cheery, yet sad and angry characters in a short movie that is supposed to be a tribute about a game that so many people wished to be continued. But sadly we live in a world where "fanservice" is a swear word and whenever you say "not all fanservice is bad" people try to argue about how this and that is bad because of how forced this and that is. You know what is forced in FFXV? The Open World. It reeks of "The fans ranted about FFXIII" even though XIII-2 and XIII-3 managed to work with the critics and still reflected how the devs did what they want with their own think. You know what else? Ardyn. For Sephiroth it at least works well together because he is an alien-hybrid and already over the top in the first place in the whole game and AC is basically what he did in the game already: Him using one of his bodies ad abilities to fulfill his plan and destroy the world . But Ardyn is even forced in the one game that he has because he is supposed to be the "cool, annoying Kefka character". And as I say, Kefka is shallow as hell but Kefka is way better in my opinion and Ardyn is the for me worst Final Fantasy villain ever. Even worse than Garland. I had to re-play FFXV to at least "dislike him a bit less". FFXV is one of those installments that actually lacks substantial story where it should be. But I will not be mad about it because as long as I get that info through no matter which media it is fine for me. Especially Luna updates.

    The problem is we live in the age of cyber communication and people can get heavily influenced through a peer of strangers. And yes, that is no nonsensical claim, it is exactly like that. Just like FFXIII never had a chance the moment it came out. People in December 2009 ranted about it and the internet exploded with ranting comments and this immediately tainted them. That hatred even influenced me because I had it in my mind all the time and it bothered me so much because I liked it so much because of the words (paraphrased) "its linear its bad its linear its bad its linear its bad its linear its bad". It was not bad for me but people ranting on about it still haunted me. It was very similiar with XII. So many people in forums hated it. I also had my problems with it but please, I won't hate something just because it is different and now suddenly everyone jumps on the FFXII train like it was never treated as garbage by so many people. The internet is a dangerous place. Because it contains words.
    Last edited by Sephiroth; 07-13-2017 at 09:55 PM.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    While I will not say that anything is wrong with the animation, I do feel the choreography and over-the-top visuals clash with what the fans saw within the game itself, which is to say that while it had its fair share of visually stunning and physics defying shenanigans, it never strayed as far into the cartoonish levels witness in the film. This choreography and wanton destruction not only clash with the ultra-realistic visual art style, but pigeonholes the film with the deluge of campy visual choreography fights that films like The Matrix and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon had popularized in the late 90s/early 00s and popularized a whole medium that is frankly diffiult to take serious anymore.
    I wouldnít describe Advent Children as ultra-realistic and the creators didnít either. In The Making Of featurette, Takeshi Nozue says, ďIf it looked too real, then we might as well shoot it live.Ē Do the characters look like real people? Have they ever looked like real people? This film is often classified as photorealistic, but it definitely has a lot of anime influence, at least in its character designs. Ridiculous, physics-defying action still exists in a lot of anime (e.g. Attack on Titan). Itís far from a tired concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    The plot is weak, largely because someone thought it would be a great idea to release it as a novel separate from the film, which ultimately weakens the films ability to tell an actual compelling story because so many important plot elements are cut out.
    Wait, was Advent Children always intended to be released alongside a novel? As I understand it, the novel came out with Advent Children Complete when the creators decided they needed to make the story more ďcomplete.Ē I think they did this to appease fans who wanted more details and characters they knew from the game. But in my opinion, Advent Children Complete only adds fan service and irrelevant filler that isnít required to understand the original film. I havenít read the novel, but I assume itís the same, considering that I like the story in the original movie just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    So I can't really get behind the writing for this piece of film because it can't really stand on its own as a story, and what plot is there simply exists for fanservice.
    What did Denzel, the children, Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo have to do with fanservice? Why didnít we see more of Cid, Barrett, Yuffie, Red XIII, etc? Why did Cloudís fight with Sephiroth only last five minutes? Isnít that what fans want to see? The Tekken: Blood Vengence movie has a ridiculous plot featuring mostly characters from the game and ends with a twenty-five-minute-long battle between characters who combined had less than five minutes of screen time in the rest of the film. I fail to see how Advent Children classifies as pure fanservice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    I mean what was the point of ACs story? For Cloud to stop feeling sorry for himself and be the hero he wanted to be? Didn't he already do that in the game?
    Yeah, the story is about some guy struggling to accept his past and find his place in the present. I can see where some fans of the game would be frustrated by this in that it somewhat rehashes what happened in the game. But when you think of it as just a movie, itís a compelling and relatable story (even with all the weird Jenova-Sephiroth-geostigma stuff in the background). The fact that this personal drama is told in an action movie makes it even more interesting.

    On a different note...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
    Well, of course Ghost Aerith will not show her funny side when it is not needed for the movie at all. Of course Cloud does not show his arrogant side (that he even has while not confabulating) when his self-critical side directly flows with his sadness and fits this whole Geostigma thing.
    I think the different sides of Cloud and Aerith were shown in the movie. It was subtle, but it was there. I think the entire point of Cloudís fight with Kadaj toward the end of the movie is his attempt to show that he doesnít need his friends after all now that he has his confidence back. One shot, in particular, shows him smiling cockily with Cidís airship flying off in the background, leaving him to fight Kadaj on his own. Aerith shows her humorous side when she stands with Cloud in his vision in the field of flowers. She teasingly pretends not to understand who he wants to forgive him. This is a little more obvious in the Japanese dub than the English dub.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
    The Geostigma and people like Cloud having it because of reason xyz indeed could have been better in the movie.
    Yeah, it could have. I like the idea of the orphans being children of dead SOLDIERs, who inherited remnants of JenovaÖ Thatís a real thing, right? ÖOr did I just make up a crazy fan theory? O.o

    Quote Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
    The problem is we live in the age of cyber communication and people can get heavily influenced through a peer of strangers. And yes, that is no nonsensical claim, it is exactly like that. Just like FFXIII never had a chance the moment it came out.
    I try to form my own opinion about these things a well especially since I started studying Advent Children. Most of the past twelve years, I believed everyone who said Advent Children didnít mean anything, didnít have a story, had no point, etc. But when I looked closer at the reviews that said all that, I realized that complaints about it were mostly exaggerations, someoneís personal interpretation of the film, or objectively wrong.

  15. #15

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    I had a whole post but somehow it was killed by the forum. To make it shorter: For the Geostigma read On the Way to a Smile. There is a lot you do not know yet/are mistaken about. For the characteristics thing: There are very very very very very slight moments when something is shown. But it is not comparable to something like Aerith threatening Corneo. Also you are a bit mistaken about Aerith. I know FFVII in German, English and Japanese as I speak all three languages and I always take the actual facts, so the Japanese version. What Aerith does is not really a "tease". It is just her in a non-direct way pointing out "Who should even forgive you? -> I don't blame you". She even opens the conversation with a very early "ne ne", implying she is in for a very casual conversation. But of course she went the actually caring and more pure route with her conversation. Everything else would just not fit. As a matter of fact Rufus is way way way more different in the original as he is also much more direct with his disrespect. He flat out calls Cloud "wannabe-Ex-SOLDIER" which then is later picked up by Cloud when Rufus calls him as the Ex-SOLDIER and Cloud just responds with "wannabe ..."

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