Joss Whedon

[Jinx]

That was kind of the idea. Our is pretty dead too. :sadtea

I believe all this time we were locking not swords, but shields.

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[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

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[Shaymin]

Don't be smurfing tosspots. You're either an ally or you're not; you don't switch sides because someone is allegedly mean to you. Being an ally is not the same as being a friend; I can think a woman is a terrible person, but she's still entitled to equal rights. Your deliberate ignorance is even undermining your petty tantrum.

*snip* Throwing insults is over the line. - Night Fury

You're NOT either an ally or you're not. Unless you want to argue people were born pro equal rights and anti equal rights. Your viewpoint is influenced by a variety of factors throughout your life and guess what viewpoint males would universally have on the opposite sex if all they received was hostility during their interactions? A bad one.

Throw out that "allegedly." No one was talking "allegedly" here. OF COURSE people will switch sides when someone is mean to them. They'll switch sides over a lot less than that, but hell yes if you treat your allies/friends like crap or outright turn on them they'll switch sides in a second.

My entire point/beef is feminists should stop putting up this wall to people who basically on their side, constantly challenging their feminist street cred being openly hostile to and witch hunting males who cant live up to some ridiculous vague perfect standard.

[Shaymin]

Just saw the flamewar warning. Ill go silent and back to Joss only

[Freya]

OOC:

Shaymin, as a newer member so you may not know, I do advise if you do want to discuss the topic of allies and feminism that you may want to make a thread in Academia. Here in the lounge it's more about media and all the goodies that come with that. While Academia is more for our debates and hot button issues. We seperate them so if people don't want to see heated debates when looking at threads about the newest tv show or movie, they wont have to.

[Shaymin]

I just tend to play devil's advocate even if the devil doesnt deserve it. That's when they need it most anyway...

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I don't have much of an opinion on Joss since I don't really follow celebrities or tend to know anything about their personal lives. I'm not really a huge fan of his work either. If he cheated on his wife over the years and is blaming anything besides himself, that's crap. He seems to be a pretty crappy person.

[The Captain]

Didn't expect this to turn into a heated debate but I suppose it can be expected when such delicate issues of equality and hypocrisy are now in play.

One thing to note, is that, it is one thing to SAY you're a feminist or an ally of equal rights and another to actually live that life. Far too many people in positions of power claim things for the press or the positive PR but it's in actions more than words where the true nature exists.

In much the same way, I have had long discussions with many friends about whether white people for instance can really be allies in civil rights struggles since they cannot fully understand or feel the same as black people do. Such as it is here for men who are allies of women seeking equality. I tend to believe that if you are helping out for the right reasons, a sense of actual equality and justice and not just the good vibes and praise then you are a welcome ally in any struggle. Let's face it, these are long, complicated problems and the more people who can join the causes together for the greater good, the better. Yes of course, some people might be joining for the wrong reasons but ultimately, they will be weeded out, either through action or attitude.

Bringing this back full circle to Whedon, I think he remains a complicated case. He did in fact help create several strong female-centric characters and stories which is for the good, but in his own life, failed to live up to the self-proclaimed expectations behind them. As such, it might once more be a case of separating the art from the artist. He should get credit for the work but not be allowed to tread a path of least resistance in life based on hype or media praise that isn't true.

Take care all.

[Chibi Youkai]

There's an interesting line in the article, that pretty much sums up everything

“I want to let women know that he is not who he pretends to be,” Cole wrote. “I want the people who worship him to know he is human,..."

I think that sums everything up right there. He's done some great things, he's done some terrible things, but at the end of the day he's human, and has just chosen to stick himself in the limelight, and got caught. Sadly, this sort of thing happens all over the world, but those we place on pedestals end up as scapegoats for all of humanity. So do we stop hanging out with people who make those mistakes in day to day life? Sometimes, sometimes not. Kind of feel the same way about this. Probably won't stop watching his stuff, but it's a reminder that these figures are just people too.

[Forsaken Lover]

FYI, no one says you can just blame the patriarchy, any more than you can blame the drug addicts in your family for why you're a drug addict or why the person who was raised by Klansmen hates black people. It's just a factor in assessing why you are who you are. Feminist 001 is too complicated for the Internet.

Anyway, I will always love Buffy. Buffy is a show that far transcends Joss Whedon. It was the product of many great writers, actors, actresses, stunt people, cameramen... Joss could literally murder someone and it wouldn't make a difference in Buffy's legacy as far as i'm concerned because to brush off that show's largely positive effect on pop culture would be a disservice to all the cool people like Alyson Hannigan an Amber Benson who helped a lot of young confused kids.

[Colonel Angus]

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[Laddy]

Damn self-congralutory fake male feminists make us real and pure male feminists look bad.

[Del Murder]

He's a douchebag for cheating on his wife, but Buffy and Firefly were still good shows. I never really saw the guy as a feminist icon, just a good writer.