View Poll Results: Who's gonna win?

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  • Manchester City

    3 50.00%
  • Manchester United

    1 16.67%
  • Tottenham

    0 0%
  • Liverpool

    1 16.67%
  • Chelsea

    0 0%
  • Arsenal

    0 0%
  • None of the above. Oh, you rebel, you.

    1 16.67%
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Thread: 2018-19 English Football Season Thread

  1. #76
    *permanent smite* Spuuky's Avatar
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    I do want Messi to be better than Ronaldo but conveniently for me he also actually is, as every meaningful statistic demonstrates. Ronaldo is the second best though! No shame in that.

    Cavani is of course the best person who plays soccer.

  2. #77
    Newbie Administrator Loony BoB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spuuky View Post
    I do want Messi to be better than Ronaldo but conveniently for me he also actually is, as every meaningful statistic demonstrates.
    Which ones are those? I thought the meaningful ones would be trophies, goals and assists at the top levels of club and international football, which I think Ronaldo beats him in most if not all situations. More goals and assists than anyone else in CL history, which is arguably the highest level of competition in football, he's been top scorer six seasons in a row, he has the 2nd highest goal tally (behind Ali Daei of Iran) in international football history, he's actually got an international trophy, he has more CL trophies too. Messi does have him beat in La Liga titles and a higher number of La Liga goals, but Ronaldo does have him beat for domestic league goals once you include the other leagues he has played in. All this without playing alongside the powerhouses Argentina has supplied at international level and without the insane level of quality of Xavi, Iniesta and co at domestic league level (but I'll concede that some of the players Ronaldo has played alongside are arguably just as good, but that's a whole different argument).

    Pick your stats! I'm actually curious which stats you're going for because the above strike me as the most "meaningful stastitics" and I'm not sure what else would be of note. I guess you could say player of the year titles but they're even on that (I think?).
    Bow before the mighty Javoo!

  3. #78
    Huh? Flower?! What the hell?! Administrator Psychotic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loony BoB View Post
    Pick your stats!
    Okay, I choose "Number of times humiliated by an Exeter City full back".

    Messi: 0
    Ronaldo: 1

  4. #79
    This is England
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loony BoB View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Manus View Post
    Clarke
    Woah there lad
    Oh man, you should have heard the things Dan and I used to call Michael Clarke back in the day...
    Still the worst grade A *angry Barret gibberish* in the history of international cricket

  5. #80
    Trial by Wombat Bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotic View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loony BoB View Post
    Pick your stats!
    Okay, I choose "Number of times humiliated by an Exeter City full back".

    Messi: 0
    Ronaldo: 1
    I choose “Number of times humiliated by a Spanish team managed by David Moyes”.

    Messi: 1
    Ronaldo: 0

  6. #81
    *permanent smite* Spuuky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loony BoB View Post
    Pick your stats!
    Goals per game (club and country)-
    Messi: 0.81
    Ronaldo: 0.72

    Assists per game (club and country)-
    Messi: 0.33
    Ronaldo: 0.23

    I can't really fathom rating team achievements when comparing individual players.

  7. #82
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    Loony Bob (Sargatanas)

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    Team achievements are good to consider in context. Ronaldo carrying a poor Portugal team vs. Messi failing to deliver despite having an incredible Argentina team is notable.

    The per-game stats are good ones! I must admit they make me reconsider just how black and white the situation is.
    Bow before the mighty Javoo!

  8. #83
    *permanent smite* Spuuky's Avatar
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    "Incredible" Argentina team?? If they didn't have Lionel Messi they wouldn't have even reached the World Cup.

    Also if you do really want to rate team achievements I'd consider 2nd in the World Cup (not in 2018 obviously) to be more impressive than winning Euro; especially if your team wins the final essentially without you.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spuuky View Post
    "Incredible" Argentina team?? If they didn't have Lionel Messi they wouldn't have even reached the World Cup.
    Incredible as in the calibre of players they have. Messi was no better than the other players in the side when they were in the World Cup. But they have more than a few genuine world-class footballers (Messi, Aguero, Di Maria, Higuain as an attack is a line-up any of the top, top clubs in the world would be delighted with... if they could get them to work well together), something not many teams at the World Cup could say. Any team with those four in attack can be called incredible, I'd say. Their midfield and defence, while being disappointing just as the attack was, are also made up of genuinely good players that should do better.

    As for how well they did in the world cup, Euros etc, it's true they won without Ronaldo in the final for the most part, but anyone who thinks that Ronaldo doesn't seriously carry Portugal a lot further than Messi can manage with Argentina must not be watching much football.
    Bow before the mighty Javoo!

  10. #85
    *permanent smite* Spuuky's Avatar
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    But Messi lead Argentina to the 2014 World Cup Final, which they took to extra time. Would this entire conversation be different if Messi had left early in that Final and his team won without him, so that "he" "won" the tournament instead of finishing 2nd?

  11. #86
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    He may have, but the general consensus is that Messi was not up to standard throughout that world cup. Of course, he definitely has very high standards compared to anyone else but Ronaldo.

    His only goals came in the group stage and throughout the knockout stage it was generally regarded as a disappointment, to the point that many of his own supporters (Maradona and Blatter no less, who do not hide their love for Messi at any point) saw him winning the golden ball as surprising and unjustified, and to the point that Messi was seemingly resistant to receive the trophy (but then I rarely if ever see him look arrogant). There are reports of other players such as Di Maria and Mascherano (and even Romero!) being Argentina's best player in 2014.
    Bow before the mighty Javoo!

  12. #87

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    Messi and Ronaldo are clearly the two defining players of the last 10 years, though for me what separates them is that Messi has continued to able to thrive as essentially a False 9 player in the Barca system whereas Ronaldo has become more of an out and out striker who requires teammates to put him in positions to slam the door. If you look at the way they impact the games, it really comes down to a matter of taste: Messi is someone who weaves a move together, Ronaldo is a hammer to a nail.

    A lot comes down to personality too: the preening diva versus the quiet enigma, one a physical specimen, the other a bit undersized.

    Trying to parse their abilities via their international duties is very difficult too because there is no control to make the comparison even. Argentina have had A LOT of coaching turmoil which in turn seems to always turn up on the field and they never seem to turn out their best starting XI. Oftentimes, they advance through a sheer moment of magic from Messi. The fact that they don't just win everything as they seem to do in Barca is just as unfair as with Portugal and the teams Ronaldo has been a part of. International soccer is such a weird competition in general, with so many random outcomes, especially in continental play. Remember when Greece won the Euros?

    Take care all.

  13. #88
    Newbie Administrator Loony BoB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Captain View Post
    Messi and Ronaldo are clearly the two defining players of the last 10 years, though for me what separates them is that Messi has continued to able to thrive as essentially a False 9 player in the Barca system whereas Ronaldo has become more of an out and out striker who requires teammates to put him in positions to slam the door. If you look at the way they impact the games, it really comes down to a matter of taste: Messi is someone who weaves a move together, Ronaldo is a hammer to a nail.
    To be fair, before he was at Real Madrid he was already player of the year by decimating people from long running attacks. Ronaldo adapted to various roles - winger, wide forward, central forward along with a sort of roaming player. Messi I think went through a similar pattern but generally ended up playing in a different position by the end of it.

    A lot comes down to personality too: the preening diva versus the quiet enigma, one a physical specimen, the other a bit undersized.
    I think I see the opposite side of the two players. I do see the diva and mister modest, but honestly Messi can be a real moody bastard at times. I guess one of the things I liked about Ronaldo and Messi that we don't get to see very often is when they're actually looking happy. Ronaldo often looks angry, and Messi often looks miserable. I prefer the person who shows a more confident, determined look so I think the miserable face-down-at-the-ground Messi puts me off him a lot. Just looks pretty "woe is me, I wish I was somewhere else" quite often and it annoys me. I see it in some United players lately too. You'd think they were doing slave labour in a coal mine. If you're losing, I want you to scream and shout, not look like you've given up and gone into your shell!
    Bow before the mighty Javoo!

  14. #89

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    The look Ronaldo gives whenever someone else takes a free kick or penalty kind of screams "Get me out of here" too. Or rather, "get HIM out of here." Also, let's be fair, had CR come up and dominated the league at City instead of United, I'd guess you'd be pretty deep in Messi's camp instead, no?

    Take care all.

  15. #90
    Newbie Administrator Loony BoB's Avatar
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    Perhaps! But I still actually like a few players in each of the teams I hate. I haven't disliked any team more than I disliked Mourinho's Chelsea, but I really liked Essien and Ivanovic. For City, I can't help but admire Aguero and all he does, and man do I wish we had a defender like Kompany since Vidic left the squad. I'll naturally always prefer the players in my own team for the most part so it's undeniable that I don't have a bias towards players who have worn the United shirt, but I also have disliked more than a few to have had the pleasure and my favourite players in any squad remain those that get angry, not mopey.

    When Ronaldo is upset, he tends to look like a spoiled brat, for sure. He'll flap his arms at his sides, get angry or just stand there with is hands on his hips and shake his head. I'd argue he's much more "disrespectful" than Messi in how he acts. I'll concede that.

    But when Messi is upset, he quietly stalks off staring at the ground, looking like he just got told he was grounded. Now, I imagine this could be "getting his focus" but honestly he just looks disinterested. And his attitude tends to wane. Perhaps it's largely because I have seen him more in an Argentina shirt in recent times than a Barcelona one when I've watched him? But if I were a teammate, I'd feel disheartened rather than motivated when I saw my teammates looking this way. As I said, it's a problem you can often see in the United team in the past year. I don't think that Messi is a terrible person for it, but I simply feel he's not a likeable person for many of the same reasons others do like him. I prefer Messi off the pitch, but on the pitch I'd take Ronaldo every time. I just wish someone at United would start bossing about the rest of the players and getting them to work harder. We had Giggs, Scholes, Keane, Evra, Vidic, Rio back in the day. Who's doing it now? Hmm.

    EDIT: Perhaps it's actually exactly as you said - it's "get HIM out of here." That kind of attitude, I think, is somewhat helpful. It pushes people, it makes them know the standard expected, it drives a winning mentality. Staring at the ground doesn't help the team at all.

    Onto other things: Urgh, that was hard to watch. Good on Derby, they really played well. We lost mostly due to the inability to get shots on target. Martial missed about five or so shots, including some genuinely good chances, and Lukaku missed a couple of solid ones too. I know they're great players... but damn, I wish we had a van Nistelrooy right now!
    Bow before the mighty Javoo!

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