Quote Originally Posted by Loony BoB View Post

That's cool and all, but every other game including FFXII I just mash X and win. I don't even think. I just do it. Hell, in FFXII I don't even need to mash X. Yeah, there are different classes, but I don't need them. What I'm getting at is that anyone who criticizes FFXIII's battle system as troutty, that's okay, but don't go idolizing the other ones like they're that much better. Because they bloody well aren't. FFXII is the one you opted to pick and that's probably the best of the rest. I still love FFVII, FFVIII and FFV more than FFXIII but I'm not idiotic enough to think that they are these deep intricate battles that involve any thinking. In every main FF game apart from FFXIII and FFXV I probably spend more time preparing for battle than I do battling. FFVII? Materia, which you figure out outside of battle. Once you have your materia set though, the vast majority of battles are cake and there's maybe 2-3 battles that actually challenge you to the point of "Well I guess I'll use a summon/magic". Even the elemental battles could be blitzed with attacks without any struggle whatsoever.

Effectively you can argue that FFXIII is dumb, but really it is more involving for the various (not just end) boss battles than any other FF I've ever played. Paradigm shifting is more than I do in any other game. I actually have to do a meager amount of thinking instead of spamming X to win (with perhaps the odd cure if it's a long battle).
Every battle system in the series has some issue, some more troublesome than others, but I stand by my opinion that XIII's is one of my least favorite for the simple fact I actually find it boring. I like options in my combat and building teams, and XIII doesn't really give me any of that cause while there are statistical differences within the party, the game is so streamlined to make it meaningless and unlike other titles that pull this stunt like VI, VII, VIII, and XII; I don't have any fun customization systems to fall back on to give me something to do.

My other issue is that the combat falls into a real simple pattern fairly quickly, which is the problem I have with FFX's combat. I eventually get stuck repeating the same overall strategy to win the game. Now granted, most including yourself would argue that this can be a good thing cause battles in earlier entries are so simple and basic to be forgettable and not worthwhile so having a goal that forces you to pay attention can be seen as a good thing, but I honestly find it annoying. Basically, old Random Encounters were like walking down a hall and being forced to open twenty doors before you get to where you need to do; but some of the asinine forced tactics like the matchmaking enemy weakness gimmick in FFX or the Guard breaking nonsense in XIII is like reaching that door and having to solve a simple arithmetic problem before the door will open. Pretty novel when you first start, but by door fifteen, I often wish we could go back to combat being mindless cause forcing me to pay attention to a meaningless battle that isn't challenging is more excruciating than mindless button mashing. If you want someone who does this idea right, look at the series XIII was shamelessly trying to ape in the Persona 3/4 entries.

Going back to the door analogy, in older games, I have options so I can personalize and flavor the experience. Maybe I don't calmly open this door, maybe I do a flying kick to get it open. Excessive, and probably not worth it if we're going by efficiency, but still fun to do. Maybe I try to challenge myself to only open the door only enough to squeeze through. I can find my own ways to make a boring task fun. XIII doesn't really let me do this too much. The door auto-slides open as soon as I solve 2+2=4 every time, and while I can try to self challenge myself, the combat is so stringent on doing it how it tells you to, that trying to win without one of your tools is effectively just trying to solve this problem with subtraction instead, and hoping the terminal will short-circuit eventually and just let you get a pass. It's not fun, there is no meat to the experience, just the boring gruel. There are reasons why the addition of monster catching and more interactive elements incorporated into it makes many XIII fans cite the sequel as being a better combat system cause it actually tries to add back in all the fluff that RPG combat needs to be fun.

EDIT: As for lack of variation amongst the cast, I disagree that this is anything more or less than FFXII. I'm not counting Zodiac Age, as I see it as a spinoff rather than the main game. If you think Hope and Snow are equally good at healing or tanking, I'll stop debating this right now because you're factually wrong. I may as well tell you that Vaan and Fran are equally good as each other with a bow (fact: I don't know if this is true). Most of my characters could heal pretty good in FFXII if I recall correctly, though.
Well considering the Zodiac Jobs were meant to be part of the game originally, I'm not sure I can agree about TZA. There is statistical differences, and technically Hope can be an effective Sentinel, not as good as Snow of course but you can make him one despite how foolish it would be since Hope has far greater strengths elsewhere. On the other hand though, second best in a role is usually not that much of a difference than the actual best. Other issues stem from Ravagers being more of a means to an end. Snow and Sahz may not be the best Ravagers in the game, but they're competent at it, and the only reason to use Hope or Lightning over them is to shave off time for the arbitrary e-penis enlargement that is the battle grading scale, despite the fact that I feel the pity items are often better than the actual good item drops. You can actually use every character effectively in any role, though some are obviously built better for one than another. Course this brings us to a point where the game once again removes player agency from the picture. The game sets up from the early chapters what everyone's best role is in combat and effectively conditions you into this mindset as it prevents your from having too many options to think differently. By the time you finally unlock all of the other Roles for a character, not only are their "best" roles better established for you, but the game actively discourages you from trying to level up the other three roles for a character by making the rewards meager and the XP costs a complete chore to obtain, effectively shoe-horning you into the way it wants you to play the game. That's not really fun man.


EDITRA: Just on your last point: it's not about it being a chore, it's about it actually being that easy that there is literally no real point other than flashy graphics to pick anything other than fight and cure. There just isn't... at least in my experiences. I'm not the kind of guy to rush through areas though, I love exploring and that inevitably leads me to over-leveling on many occasions. It's like with Tomb Raider, I end up with all the perks roughly half way into the game when many finish the game without getting them completed.
I generally don't like plugging my own threads, but I would argue that my FFV Let's Play shows just how deep the rabbit hole goes for effectively using classes and abilities. Yeah, I could take out the Garula boss by just mashing X, but it's honestly more fun turning him into a Toad with a Blue Mage spell and watching him waste his turns going back to normal just so I can do it to him again. I could take down Ifirit in FFVIII by just spamming Shiva and Limit Breaks, but it's more rewarding to level up m,y GF abilities to Junction 100 Blizzara spells to Squall's weapon and watch him one shot the dude. I could Ultima spam every boss in VI, or I can play with relics to pull off game breaking normal attacks or use the more interactive special skills of the party. I could level grind my party to godhood in FFII, or I could hilariously just get Toad spell to Lv. 16 and watch as the creator's failure to give any enemy the immunity allows me to win the game by turning everything I encounter into frogs. That's what makes the older combat system more fun, exploring the possibilities and playing with party configurations. Yes, I could easily win by mashing X, but some fights have even more interesting solutions and options for them and large part of the fun of the older games is learning what works and what doesn't. Again, back to the door analogy, I like having the option to just kick the damn door down instead of having to rinse and repeat the same method which is what XIII's combat pretty much does.

I prefer exploring and dicking around as well, but while I'm doing that, I'm also playing around with the combat system to give me some variety as well.