What in the smurf is Final Fantasy IX fans problem?

[Jinx]

I thought that you meant characterization wise though, which is why I was disagreeing so much because one character believes that he's somebody else for a decent chunk of the story, and another character is a talking dog.

*I mean within the context of battle, not the story. The characters are actually one of the few truly good things the story has going for it. Except Aeris and Cloud.

[Loony BoB]

Nah, XIII is the only game in the single player series that you literally can't rely on smashing X to win for 99% of battles, because they cap your level and force you into situations that you have to consider what three jobs are best suited to the situation, and have to alter between those job sets. People who are blind ignorant to this baffle me, and I can only assume it's because they don't like the game so are trying hard to find ways to trash it.

You could argue that you can do a lot more variety in moves by smashing X because the game puts in the generally best patterns, basically a gambit system set up for each job, but in the end you are having to do marginally more than you have to in all the other games unless you're doing a low-level run (and you can do that in FFXIII, too).

Oh BoB, you and your defense of XIII's combat system.

The issue is that you're stuck with six classes, as opposed to XII where you could build your party around weapon and magic types which gave you over twelve different options with character builds.

Of the six classes, half have great synergy with each other and the other half have great synergy with themselves. Due to bonuses you get for having certain classes together, it's usually better to group these classes in this way to maximize yourself. Tactics basically falls into the player building three variations of the same paradigm sets. You'll have one offensive mage focuses set for breaking the enemy guard, and a physical one for when it breaks. Then you'll have a sentinel with a two medics, a medic and a Synergist, or a sentinel with a medic and Saboteur if your staying offensive focused. Battles devolve quickly into using the first combat set to break the enemy, switch to the second combat mode when they do break, occasionally switch to one of the three defensive sets mentioned above if the enemy happens to actually survive a break and you need to keep the troops alive. Then you rinse and repeat until you win.

With the lack of variation among the cast, the auto-attack option making your own in-battle contribution meaningless outside of paradigm shifting, and the more difficult battles often just involve getting around the game's overly simplistic A.I. that you can never directly control; battles are pretty boring after awhile cause this setup works on just about everything. Not to mention the level cap means nothing when that stigma doesn't apply to your equipment and you can often make a hard battle super easy by just actually leveling up some of your gear to compensate. The grade scale is just the game trying to punish you for being pragmatic, so honestly the game is pretty easy if you don't care about S Ranking every battle. The only battles I found hard were usually solved by either leveling up my gear, dealing with the stupid A.I. for the Sentinel and Synergist classes, and funny enough, actually level grinding once you unlock the full Crysterium for a few meager extra stats.

I could honestly build a better version of every class in XIII with XII's mechanics and have more control to boot. Not to mention XII has skills like Darkness and Horology to add variety, and enemies who force you to actually think outside of the box to defeat them like the Esper battles and higher marks. XIII's combat is too streamlined for my taste and sucks the joy out of the combat cause there is no real variety in it. It's only fun for people who probably find combat a chore in the series to begin with and likely never used anything more than Fight and Cure for everything.

That's cool and all, but every other game including FFXII I just mash X and win. I don't even think. I just do it. Hell, in FFXII I don't even need to mash X. Yeah, there are different classes, but I don't need them. What I'm getting at is that anyone who criticises FFXIII's battle system as troutty, that's okay, but don't go idolising the other ones like they're that much better. Because they bloody well aren't. FFXII is the one you opted to pick and that's probably the best of the rest. I still love FFVII, FFVIII and FFV more than FFXIII but I'm not idiotic enough to think that they are these deep intricate battles that involve any thinking. In every main FF game apart from FFXIII and FFXV I probably spend more time preparing for battle than I do battling. FFVII? Materia, which you figure out outside of battle. Once you have your materia set though, the vast majority of battles are cake and there's maybe 2-3 battles that actually challenge you to the point of "Well I guess I'll use a summon/magic". Even the elemental battles could be blitzed with attacks without any struggle whatsoever.

Effectively you can argue that FFXIII is dumb, but really it is more involving for the various (not just end) boss battles than any other FF I've ever played. Paradigm shifting is more than I do in any other game. I actually have to do a meager amount of thinking instead of spamming X to win (with perhaps the odd cure if it's a long battle).

EDIT: As for lack of variation amongst the cast, I disagree that this is anything more or less than FFXII. I'm not counting Zodiac Age, as I see it as a spinoff rather than the main game. If you think Hope and Snow are equally good at healing or tanking, I'll stop debating this right now because you're factually wrong. I may as well tell you that Vaan and Fran are equally good as each other with a bow (fact: I don't know if this is true). Most of my characters could heal pretty good in FFXII if I recall correctly, though.

EDITRA: Just on your last point: it's not about it being a chore, it's about it actually being that easy that there is literally no real point other than flashy graphics to pick anything other than fight and cure. There just isn't... at least in my experiences. I'm not the kind of guy to rush through areas though, I love exploring and that inevitably leads me to over-leveling on many occasions. It's like with Tomb Raider, I end up with all the perks roughly half way into the game when many finish the game without getting them completed.

[Fynn]

How is an updated rerelease a spin-off?

[Wolf Kanno]

That's cool and all, but every other game including FFXII I just mash X and win. I don't even think. I just do it. Hell, in FFXII I don't even need to mash X. Yeah, there are different classes, but I don't need them. What I'm getting at is that anyone who criticizes FFXIII's battle system as troutty, that's okay, but don't go idolizing the other ones like they're that much better. Because they bloody well aren't. FFXII is the one you opted to pick and that's probably the best of the rest. I still love FFVII, FFVIII and FFV more than FFXIII but I'm not idiotic enough to think that they are these deep intricate battles that involve any thinking. In every main FF game apart from FFXIII and FFXV I probably spend more time preparing for battle than I do battling. FFVII? Materia, which you figure out outside of battle. Once you have your materia set though, the vast majority of battles are cake and there's maybe 2-3 battles that actually challenge you to the point of "Well I guess I'll use a summon/magic". Even the elemental battles could be blitzed with attacks without any struggle whatsoever.

Effectively you can argue that FFXIII is dumb, but really it is more involving for the various (not just end) boss battles than any other FF I've ever played. Paradigm shifting is more than I do in any other game. I actually have to do a meager amount of thinking instead of spamming X to win (with perhaps the odd cure if it's a long battle).

Every battle system in the series has some issue, some more troublesome than others, but I stand by my opinion that XIII's is one of my least favorite for the simple fact I actually find it boring. I like options in my combat and building teams, and XIII doesn't really give me any of that cause while there are statistical differences within the party, the game is so streamlined to make it meaningless and unlike other titles that pull this stunt like VI, VII, VIII, and XII; I don't have any fun customization systems to fall back on to give me something to do.

My other issue is that the combat falls into a real simple pattern fairly quickly, which is the problem I have with FFX's combat. I eventually get stuck repeating the same overall strategy to win the game. Now granted, most including yourself would argue that this can be a good thing cause battles in earlier entries are so simple and basic to be forgettable and not worthwhile so having a goal that forces you to pay attention can be seen as a good thing, but I honestly find it annoying. Basically, old Random Encounters were like walking down a hall and being forced to open twenty doors before you get to where you need to do; but some of the asinine forced tactics like the matchmaking enemy weakness gimmick in FFX or the Guard breaking nonsense in XIII is like reaching that door and having to solve a simple arithmetic problem before the door will open. Pretty novel when you first start, but by door fifteen, I often wish we could go back to combat being mindless cause forcing me to pay attention to a meaningless battle that isn't challenging is more excruciating than mindless button mashing. If you want someone who does this idea right, look at the series XIII was shamelessly trying to ape in the Persona 3/4 entries.

Going back to the door analogy, in older games, I have options so I can personalize and flavor the experience. Maybe I don't calmly open this door, maybe I do a flying kick to get it open. Excessive, and probably not worth it if we're going by efficiency, but still fun to do. Maybe I try to challenge myself to only open the door only enough to squeeze through. I can find my own ways to make a boring task fun. XIII doesn't really let me do this too much. The door auto-slides open as soon as I solve 2+2=4 every time, and while I can try to self challenge myself, the combat is so stringent on doing it how it tells you to, that trying to win without one of your tools is effectively just trying to solve this problem with subtraction instead, and hoping the terminal will short-circuit eventually and just let you get a pass. It's not fun, there is no meat to the experience, just the boring gruel. There are reasons why the addition of monster catching and more interactive elements incorporated into it makes many XIII fans cite the sequel as being a better combat system cause it actually tries to add back in all the fluff that RPG combat needs to be fun.

EDIT: As for lack of variation amongst the cast, I disagree that this is anything more or less than FFXII. I'm not counting Zodiac Age, as I see it as a spinoff rather than the main game. If you think Hope and Snow are equally good at healing or tanking, I'll stop debating this right now because you're factually wrong. I may as well tell you that Vaan and Fran are equally good as each other with a bow (fact: I don't know if this is true). Most of my characters could heal pretty good in FFXII if I recall correctly, though.

Well considering the Zodiac Jobs were meant to be part of the game originally, I'm not sure I can agree about TZA. There is statistical differences, and technically Hope can be an effective Sentinel, not as good as Snow of course but you can make him one despite how foolish it would be since Hope has far greater strengths elsewhere. On the other hand though, second best in a role is usually not that much of a difference than the actual best. Other issues stem from Ravagers being more of a means to an end. Snow and Sahz may not be the best Ravagers in the game, but they're competent at it, and the only reason to use Hope or Lightning over them is to shave off time for the arbitrary e-penis enlargement that is the battle grading scale, despite the fact that I feel the pity items are often better than the actual good item drops. You can actually use every character effectively in any role, though some are obviously built better for one than another. Course this brings us to a point where the game once again removes player agency from the picture. The game sets up from the early chapters what everyone's best role is in combat and effectively conditions you into this mindset as it prevents your from having too many options to think differently. By the time you finally unlock all of the other Roles for a character, not only are their "best" roles better established for you, but the game actively discourages you from trying to level up the other three roles for a character by making the rewards meager and the XP costs a complete chore to obtain, effectively shoe-horning you into the way it wants you to play the game. That's not really fun man.

EDITRA: Just on your last point: it's not about it being a chore, it's about it actually being that easy that there is literally no real point other than flashy graphics to pick anything other than fight and cure. There just isn't... at least in my experiences. I'm not the kind of guy to rush through areas though, I love exploring and that inevitably leads me to over-leveling on many occasions. It's like with Tomb Raider, I end up with all the perks roughly half way into the game when many finish the game without getting them completed.

I generally don't like plugging my own threads, but I would argue that my FFV Let's Play shows just how deep the rabbit hole goes for effectively using classes and abilities. Yeah, I could take out the Garula boss by just mashing X, but it's honestly more fun turning him into a Toad with a Blue Mage spell and watching him waste his turns going back to normal just so I can do it to him again. I could take down Ifirit in FFVIII by just spamming Shiva and Limit Breaks, but it's more rewarding to level up m,y GF abilities to Junction 100 Blizzara spells to Squall's weapon and watch him one shot the dude. I could Ultima spam every boss in VI, or I can play with relics to pull off game breaking normal attacks or use the more interactive special skills of the party. I could level grind my party to godhood in FFII, or I could hilariously just get Toad spell to Lv. 16 and watch as the creator's failure to give any enemy the immunity allows me to win the game by turning everything I encounter into frogs. That's what makes the older combat system more fun, exploring the possibilities and playing with party configurations. Yes, I could easily win by mashing X, but some fights have even more interesting solutions and options for them and large part of the fun of the older games is learning what works and what doesn't. Again, back to the door analogy, I like having the option to just kick the damn door down instead of having to rinse and repeat the same method which is what XIII's combat pretty much does.

I prefer exploring and dicking around as well, but while I'm doing that, I'm also playing around with the combat system to give me some variety as well.

[Loony BoB]

Well, if you're looking to beat things through unusual methods, you can opt to not use the auto button on the battles in FFXIII and just do it manually. Nobody is stopping you. The entire series can always be won through ineffcient ways if you're just looking to do it some way different, and XIII is no different in that manner.

But for me, that's just something I'm really not that interested in, as it's mostly just a different graphic I get to see and otherwise slowing down the battle for no real fun factor (again, this is for me - the fun factor for me is in the accomplishment of winning a fight, not in doing silly things because the fight is incredibly basic in the first place). I think we just have completely different interests in the battle content for this and I can understand why random peculiar things might interest you in that regard, but for me I want the initial game to be interesting without me having to force it down that road by having to be creative. I mean I may as well sit down and create my own game (also something that I simply don't have the patience for).

Regarding the Zodiac: I can only say I bought and played FFXII and everyone was pretty much the same. Yes, Zodiac is different, but I don't buy games just for a new battle system. I bought FFXII as it was, and played it as it was, and for me the Zodiac system is just not something I can justify spending my money on. I don't count it as the original game, though, because it's not the original game...

[Fynn]

It’s not a changed battle system, it’s a set of overall tweaks plus a modified character progression system. You know, like the expert sphere grid from FFX. So by that logic, FFX PAL/HD is a spin-off and not a main game. He’ll, by that logic, every retelease is a spinoff. FFs 1 through 3 had substantial gameplay tweaks and difficulty reductions, with III having named characters instead of nameless. Spinoff!

Your logic is very flawed, is what I’m saying

[Wolf Kanno]

Well, if you're looking to beat things through unusual methods, you can opt to not use the auto button on the battles in FFXIII and just do it manually. Nobody is stopping you. The entire series can always be won through ineffcient ways if you're just looking to do it some way different, and XIII is no different in that manner.

I have, and it's boring. Non-mage classes have few options, due to ravager functioning differently than a traditional black mage in purpose, they're pretty underwhelming to use, and I've frankly never cared for buff/debuff classes. I honestly feel just auto-battling is less taxing on my patience, because at least I can pretend the roles have more to offer me than they really do. It's ultimately the issue I have with the combat, the classes are so streamlined to be boring to use and battles need to go by so fast it's often just easier to let the computer do all the work for you. I don't even get the satisfaction of customization either cause everything is so simplified to make any effort feel pointless.

But for me, that's just something I'm really not that interested in, as it's mostly just a different graphic I get to see and otherwise slowing down the battle for no real fun factor (again, this is for me - the fun factor for me is in the accomplishment of winning a fight, not in doing silly things because the fight is incredibly basic in the first place). I think we just have completely different interests in the battle content for this and I can understand why random peculiar things might interest you in that regard, but for me I want the initial game to be interesting without me having to force it down that road by having to be creative. I mean I may as well sit down and create my own game (also something that I simply don't have the patience for).

See for me, a victory from a boring battle doesn't interest me. I prefer having options cause winning with the same strategy is just uninteresting, especially in something like an RPG where you're expected to be playing for 30 to 70 hours. Even fun battle systems can't survive that long of a playtime without getting a bit repetitive. I enjoy having classes like Thief and Blue Mage to change the battle by giving me sub-objectives like stealing a certain piece of loot or obtaining a certain spell. Those change ups in the dynamics of battle add a lot of interesting elements to keep battles fresh, even if I could just mash X to win. I enjoy playing with characters and classes and trying to learn how to min/max them but I'll get really bored if it's way too straightforward like the Crystarium is. When victory is the only objective and the game expects you to use the same tactics for every fight, it just makes combat boring to me, and because of the dumb paradigm system, XIII forces me to pay attention to the monotonous battles which just dragged the whole experience down for me cause at least combat in a vanilla RPG like FFI and Lunar gives me the ability to just zone out or multi-task instead of having to sit their and watch my party health bar/Enemy break gauge until something happens. XIII's battle system just takes the worst aspects of RPG combat and forces you to confront and deal with it with little to no reprieve or excitement.

I prefer gameplay to give me something more to do than just win, so we'll likely have to agree to disagree.

Regarding the Zodiac: I can only say I bought and played FFXII and everyone was pretty much the same. Yes, Zodiac is different, but I don't buy games just for a new battle system. I bought FFXII as it was, and played it as it was, and for me the Zodiac system is just not something I can justify spending my money on. I don't count it as the original game, though, because it's not the original game...

Does this mean you bought FFX HD so you could play the original FFX cause the Master Sphere Grid wasn't in the "original" game? I jest, but honestly, I feel the Zodiac Jobs really change-up the overall experience of FFXII in some interesting ways to make the game feel fresh. Honestly, I wish more "director's cut" style games did such good jobs on changing up the gameplay experience like TZA does.

[Loony BoB]

I like gameplay being about more than just winning as well, but I don't feel I have to create a sense of challenge instead of being given one, and I just can't enjoy what you enjoy as there is no real benefit that I can find in it, as I don't find it fun, which means it's poor gameplay. I agree we'll have to disagree. I will say I enjoy things like stealing with a thief because there are tangible benefits, but doing things like particular spells just to watch them be in mini/toad etc. for a while when I could have saved the MP by just hitting him to death in a few moments... for me this just doesn't compute.

It was pointed out beforehand that there is the S-Ranking thing, which I really enjoyed getting for all those monster fights on Gran Pulse. So I guess personally I found that really enjoyable as a challenge outside of the regular mash X to win stuff, finding a way to take down those guys at brutal efficiency took a bit of figuring out in many cases, often having to use methods/paradigms that weren't previously used. So I guess that's about as close as I get to what you enjoy.

It’s not a changed battle system, it’s a set of overall tweaks plus a modified character progression system. You know, like the expert sphere grid from FFX. So by that logic, FFX PAL/HD is a spin-off and not a main game. He’ll, by that logic, every retelease is a spinoff. FFs 1 through 3 had substantial gameplay tweaks and difficulty reductions, with III having named characters instead of nameless. Spinoff!

Your logic is very flawed, is what I’m saying

Sorry, Zodiac is a new job system, I guess, more than battle system. Wrong word chosen. But for me I can only go by the game I actually played, and Zodiac wasn't a thing I could play and I don't enjoy the plot of FFXII enough to justify spending money on doing the entire thing again with a new job system. The job and battle systems aren't the most important thing to me in a game - the world, the characters and the story are. I can't comment on the job system of games I haven't played. The FFXII I played was nothing special for jobs. 'sall I can say on that, I'm sure you can understand not wanting to pay money for the same game just tweaked if it's not one of your favourites of the series.

If it were free or included in the original game I might've given it a go.

[Fynn]

Sure. But that doesn’t make it a spin-off by any stretch of the word.

[Loony BoB]

Well, I'm not sure what it makes it, but it's not the original game and for me is different enough to not be classified as something that is described as simply FFXII.

[Rez09]

Enhanced port, maybe? That's what I generally consider the FF1 and 2 remakes, as they are in essence the same games with updated mechanics.

[Fynn]

^^

[Freya]

Do you see what you did, Nethuzad? Now they're bickering over XII and XIII!

I think the answer to this is that FF fans like and hate different things, ha. With a series that prizes itself on differences in entries, this is natural.

[Jinx]

Yeah, many of the entries are so different tonally and from a gameplay perspective, that they don't even feel like part of the same series. People compare them BECAUSE they all share the same title, but really, sometimes it's like comparing apples and dogs. I mean, you can, but what's the smurfing point? One's an apple and one's a dog.

[Wolf Kanno]

I like gameplay being about more than just winning as well, but I don't feel I have to create a sense of challenge instead of being given one, and I just can't enjoy what you enjoy as there is no real benefit that I can find in it, as I don't find it fun, which means it's poor gameplay. I agree we'll have to disagree. I will say I enjoy things like stealing with a thief because there are tangible benefits, but doing things like particular spells just to watch them be in mini/toad etc. for a while when I could have saved the MP by just hitting him to death in a few moments... for me this just doesn't compute.

Honestly, the enemy doesn't really last long once the Toad thing happens as the status drastically reduces their stats and you can also silence them to prevent them from changing back, so it's not just me picking on the boss though that option is also valid. So I wouldn't call it a waste of MP, especially since you're more likely to be wasting MP healing in this case. My point is really the fact that several bosses in the series have multiple strategies that can be utilized to beat them instead of just hitting them with a brick until they die, and frankly many of these strategies are generally more satisfying to me to pull off since any scrub can use a blunt instrument to get their way.

This is why I like Blue Magic cause it will honestly give you a huge advantage as several spells can easily cripple bosses and tough enemies, but acquiring them is a challenge in themselves. This ultimately adds more value to combat as I now find myself in situations to prolong battles to acquire them, or perhaps do something that seems a bit counter-intuitive to get them. They add a puzzle aspect to battles which adds variety for me in the long run.

It was pointed out beforehand that there is the S-Ranking thing, which I really enjoyed getting for all those monster fights on Gran Pulse. So I guess personally I found that really enjoyable as a challenge outside of the regular mash X to win stuff, finding a way to take down those guys at brutal efficiency took a bit of figuring out in many cases, often having to use methods/paradigms that weren't previously used. So I guess that's about as close as I get to what you enjoy.

I honestly don't care for it, largely because the only thing that matters is speed which is the greatest flaw in most games with grading scales cause that's the one element that tends to make up 60-90% of the score. Where this goes wrong is that it means you can play recklessly and simply trade blows if it means you can win the fight in less time, which to me shouldn't qualify as an S-Rank score. Hell, half the time in XIII I found the difference in getting an A versus S score was simply just not bothering to switch to a defensive paradigm except maybe a brief second to heal. I don't really find this rewarding. I honestly prefer how Record Keeper does this kind of stuff where minimizing damage and accomplishing strategic objectives like hitting the enemy with a specific weakness or status effect.

Well, I'm not sure what it makes it, but it's not the original game and for me is different enough to not be classified as something that is described as simply FFXII.

Director's Cut or Criterion Edition comes to mind, especially since the game basically plays like how it was originally envisioned to be in the early stages. Hell, Ito didn't even want to give the game the International title when they originally released it because that usually meant only a few elements changed, whereas XII Zodiac Job edition received quite the overhaul mechanically to basically play like a different game, so he wanted a new subtitle to reflect that. The closest comparison to the game within the series would FFIV DS, which was also radically overhauled to feel like a different experience from the original.