Cos we are all cynical adults
Just me? trout, i forgot im an adult now.
They used to make games I enjoy playing. The last several games I did not enjoy playing. Saying they don't make good games anymore is as simple as that.
...
It's not illogical to criticize them for failing to make new main entries in under 10 years when it takes them 10 years to make a mainline entry. That totally different teams produced some slapdash sequels in shorter amounts of time is irrelevant to that. It's also not relevant when you hate the game the sequels are based on leaving you completely disinterested in said sequels.
And it's worth keeping in mind that almost no developer takes 10 years to make a game even now. That's 100% pure bred Squenix right there.
I was really trying my best to avoid this thread but boredom got the better of me it seems.
In terms of development turnaround, SE itself has admitted that all of their mainline games from XII-XV have suffered from behind the scenes issues and that's why the games seem to take so long to produce. The Ultimania and certain interviews pretty much point to the fact that in addition to the demands that new technology has brought to development, that SE has internal issues as well that seem to be linked to the fact that they are still trying to make these games like they did twenty years ago when they had a tenth of the staff and easier hardware to work with.
XII was delayed because of the programming issues of trying to build an MMO scaled world on the PS2 without the use of the HUD peripheral that XI used, as well as the very well known resignation of it's director halfway through the game's development which left the remaining team needing to finish the plot and direction of the title.
XIII suffered from being pushed back to a next gen console which made what little early development on it obsolete. Was built simultaneously with the finnicky Crystal Tools engine which kept delaying the game's development and ended up being so tailored made for XIII that it was deemed unusable for the vXIII developers. The game also suffered from mismanagement, most notable being the fact the game didn't even have a real core gameplay concept until the demo was made a year before the game's release. There is also the apocryphal story of an artist spending months making a rock fixture that is only on the screen for five seconds in a cutscene showing that priorities on the project were pretty skewed.
XIV suffered from such misguided management that it's original director had to resign to save face, the game had to go under a two year retool to get back into the black, and this retool ultimately delayed every AAA project in the companies pipeline and was likely the direct cause for why vXIII ended being rebranded. Yoshi-P again mentions that resources were being used poorly as developers over-emphasized graphical quality which ended up creating several of the game's server issues, as well as the director ignoring many of the quality of life enhancements that the MMO genre had experienced over the decade since WoW hit the scene. This game's original performance issues hit the company so hard, they're still paying for it.
XV doesn't really need an introduction on it's development problems, but much like the last two games, one thing gleamed from the interviews with the director is the recurring story of SE having a poor management style which causes a lot of the development problems. Director Tabata spends just as much time discussing the issues with trying to fix the development side of things as he was just redesigning the ten year old relic. He discusses issues of entitlement and poor accountability among his department heads as well as an overall issue of management not keeping everyone on the same page which has been a recurring issue echoed in the Ultimania interviews for XIII and XIV.
As for the issues of Square-Enix as a whole, I feel my personal issues stem from just the simple fact that all of the designers I loved from the 90s era have all left the company for the most part by 2005. This combined with SE's desire to really stick to just the safe bet entries for over a decade by simply making sequels, trying to turn numbered FFs into mini-franchises, and often being too afraid to make anything non-mobile that doesn't have the FF moniker on it because they're too afraid of taking any kind of loss has largely disillusioned me from the company. When you think back to what Square was producing in the 90s, it's hard to think of a really bad entry of their high profile titles and the company had several non-FF themed franchises going for it as well. Sure they had some low profile duds of course, but I don't think we can even argue the fact that most of SE's best known IPs and beloved games stem from this era almost exclusively. On the other hand, it's really difficult to name maybe ten really fantastic first party games made by SE since 2000 that most fans would be like "oh yeah, that's a great game!". That's not to say SE doesn't make good games, but I also feel it's obvious that both the fans and even some of the developers would rather dwell on past glories than anything new. The fact that most fans were more interested in a remake of a 20 year old game over the announcement of a new installment says many things about where fans feel the franchise is.
Overall, I feel the biggest difference between SE now and Square from the old days is both the fact that the company is more profit driven, which itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, but more importantly, it just doesn't feel like it has people working there who just want to make cool games, instead, everything feels like it's kind of got through this marketing filter to be acceptable for release. Square led the industry, but SE just feels like another rank and file member of it.
True beauty exists in things that last only for a moment.
Current Mood: And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe. Maybe this year will be better than the last. I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself. To hold on to these moments as they pass...
Definitely agree about change in designers though not completely on "left." I do think Sakaguchi's departure, for example, was a significant blow. However, I think Kitase stepping back from the position of director was probably an equally significant if not greater issue. I was greatly disappointed to hear Nomura would be helming the FFVII remake instead of Kitase. The series took a nosedive IMO when Kitase moved on to producer roles.
1. It hasn't taken them 10 years to make a new mainline entry in the post-Final Fantasy X era.
-> FF12 started development in late 2000, and released in 2006-2007. That's about 5-5.5 years of development time.
-> FF13 started development in early 2004, and released around 2009-2010. That's about 5-5.5 years of development time, give or take.
-> FF14 (the original release) started development in 2005, and released in 2010. That's about 4-5 years of development time.
-> FF14: A Realm Reborn started development in 2011, and it released in 2013. That's about 2 years of development time, which is an impressive turnaround.
-> FF Versus XIII began development in 2006, but that game never saw the light of day. Instead, we got:
-> FF15, which technically began development around 2012-2013 when Tabata took over the project. It released in 2016, so it took about 4 years of development time from when Tabata took over.
2. The original comment I was replying to was talking about AAA games getting sequels within a few years.
-> Pointing out that Square Enix has produced multiple sequels to their AAA Final Fantasy titles is very relevant to the original comment I was responding to.
-> Referring to them as "slapdash" sequels is both dismissive and false, considering sequels such as Final Fantasy XIII-2 introduce a breadth of entirely new content and mechanics.
3. You being disinterested in the original game and the sequels doesn't in any way dismiss my points.
-> You're well within your rights to dislike Square Enix Final Fantasy titles, but they have definitely demonstrated that they can produce both mainline titles and sequels to said mainline titles within a reasonable timeframe.
4. You're right. And Square Enix is one of those developers that does not take 10 years to make a new game.
Last edited by Scruffington; 04-06-2019 at 02:40 AM.
Pull my Devil Trigger!
I think judging FFXV as developed from 2006-2016 is perfectly fair. Regardless of whether they had to start from scratch in 2012 and other structural changes, those issues are all on Square and it's fair to hold them accountable rather than saying they get to reset the clock on themselves by changing the project title and direction. Also, they definitely didn't start 100% from scratch. I remember seeing the characters of FFXV in the videos for FF Versus XIII. Even if they had to rebuild character models, they clearly didn't scrap the whole conception of what they had previously.
Calling FFXIV a mainline FF game is honestly a tad laughable. It's a spinoff in a different genre that they slapped a number on to draw people in. It'd be like expecting a new Half-Life game and getting Fortnite. And trying to pretend that FFXV wasn't in development for more than ten years because it got a name change and some team shakeups part way through is a tad disingenuous.
Also, the FFXIII sequels were slapdash sequels to a slapdash game. FFXIII didn't even have a clear direction until about 18-24 months before release, it was remarkably half-assed and poorly made, and instead of developing newer better games they released a couple of quick sequels to take advantage of the fact that at least they'd already built an engine, didn't have to think too hard about writing the world since the foundation was already set, and they could cannibalize as many assets as they wanted to make life easier. So yeah, sequels slapped together in short order to make more money on a game that was slapped together in under two years because as usual Squenix sat on their asses with no direction and accomplishing nothing for years before they realized people expected them to actually make a game out of it. I'm also not particularly impressed that they can have all of these separate teams working on all of these separate games and it still takes them at least twice as long to make a game as anyone else can get it done.
Except it is a mainline Final Fantasy game. Just because you don't like MMOs doesn't invalidate it as a Final Fantasy game. There are plenty of people -- even here on EoFF -- who could tell you that it is 100% deserving of the Final Fantasy name.
False equivalency. FF14 is still very much an RPG at its core like every other Final Fantasy game, it has a multitude of elements from the Final Fantasy series in it, and it still emphasizes its story as the focal point of the game. It's a Final Fantasy game in every respect.It'd be like expecting a new Half-Life game and getting Fortnite.
Not really. Versus XIII was in development hell for years. It didn't become the next mainline game until 2012-2013, when the entire development focus shifted and they brought Tabata in to complete the game.And trying to pretend that FFXV wasn't in development for more than ten years because it got a name change and some team shakeups part way through is a tad disingenuous.
Even if it did take the actual 10 years to make FFXV as you're suggesting: So what? I don't see much value in getting this worked up over it. The game has been out for nearly 3 years at this point. Even I was disappointed with it, but it's a still a decent game and it was well received.
They really weren't, but okay.Also, the FFXIII sequels were slapdash sequels to a slapdash game.
It really wasn't, but okay.FFXIII didn't even have a clear direction until about 18-24 months before release, it was remarkably half-assed and poorly made
Except most people who disliked the original XIII considered XIII-2 a massive improvement over the original because it alleviated their concerns about linearity, but sure. FF13 bad and Square Enix bad, I guess.and instead of developing newer better games they released a couple of quick sequels to take advantage of the fact that at least they'd already built an engine, didn't have to think too hard about writing the world since the foundation was already set, and they could cannibalize as many assets as they wanted to make life easier.
Pull my Devil Trigger!
I've long admired the next-gen approach to video games, with life-like character and world depictions and smooth graphics and I still look forward to playing FF7RE, however, when considering the cost of time and money which I had obviously never truly gave thought to as a teenager, as I am older now and frustrated by these troubles, I have begun to back more fondly on the simpler depictions. I think what modding community did with FF7, clunky and obfuscating system was epic and Square Enix released more titles to PC, we probably would see a lot more of this.
I used to dream of creating my own videogame with lifelike depictions of characters but lately, I've come to accept that they could look just as appealing in super-deformed sprite mode, with some original character art in the menus or during dialogue, and hell maybe a couple of fully rendered movies just for the oomph. Though I still believe the battle animations should look like 10% more dynamic that what you'd see while traversing the map. I'm just gonna ride off into the sunset now before this rant goes into questionable territory...
Jack: How do you know?
Will: It's more of a feeling really.
Jack: Well, that's not scientific. Feeling isn't knowing. Feeling is believing. If you believe it, you can't know because there's no knowing what you believe. Then again, no one should believe what they know either. Once you know anything that anything becomes unbelievable if only by virtue of the fact you now... know it. You know?
Will: No.
If Demolition Man were remade today
Huxley: What's wrong? You broke contact.
Spartan: Contact? I didn't even touch you.
Huxley: Don't you want to make love?
Spartan: Is that what you call this? Why don't we just do it the old-fashioned way?
Huxley: NO!
Spartan: Whoa! Okay, calm down.
Huxley: Don't tell me to calm down!
Spartan: What's gotten into you? 'Cause it sure as hell wasn't me.
Huxley: Physical relations in the way of intercourse are no longer acceptable John Spartan.
Spartan: What? Why the hell not?
Huxley: It's the law, John. And for your information, the very idea that you suggested it makes me feel personally violated.
Spartan: Wait a minute... violated? Huxley what the hell are you accusing me of here?
Huxley: You need to leave, John.
Spartan: But Huxley.
Huxley: Get out!
Moments later Spartan is arrested for "violating" Huxley.
By the way, that's called satire. Get over it.
One more thing in regard to XI and XIV. If Square Enix were to release non-MMO spinoffs of those titles, I would buy that schet up so fast. I don't care if it made only the vaguest of references to the original storyline or if ended up feeling like I was playing .hack//GU Resurrection again (a weird experience after four years since playing the original trilogy). I suppose you could say I'm not one for community so I dislike MMORPGs, but I love Final Fantasy and I just tend to feel it is unfair that I'm made to choose to forego a main title or be saddled with an experience I really don't enjoy. There's that.
There are legitimate criticisms to be had about the recent Final Fantasy games and about Square Enix as a whole, but I think much of the unbridled seething hate you hear hurled toward them these days is the simple fact that they're one of the big guys now. They're reviled for most of the same reasons Electronic Arts, Ubisoft, Activision, etc. are. They're huge and wield way too much publishing power over way too many beloved/once beloved franchises and the way they've been handling them in recent years (particularly in regard to their love for mobile and microtransations) is questionable.