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Thread: Why do people disliked modern Square Enix?

  1. #1

    Default Why do people disliked modern Square Enix?

    I never understood this, their recent FF games have all been well received by gaming critics, yet I keep hear things like, “FFX was the last good FF” and “Squaresoft died after becoming Square Enix” why all the hate?

  2. #2
    Sh♥tposter Extraordinaire Jinx's Avatar
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    because final fantasy is a troutty series?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinx View Post
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  3. #3

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    Gaming critics tend to give inflated scores to popular series anyway. Look at Zelda games. Those scores are laughable for the most part. Also, FFXIII and FFXV have pretty low metacritic scores compared to others in the series, so I'm not sure your premise is accurate.
    Last edited by Lord Golbez; 03-27-2019 at 01:46 AM.

  4. #4

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    I'm slightly confused by your question. Your title seems to imply that people are critical about Square Enix as a whole, but your post suggests a focus on criticism of post-Squaresoft Final Fantasy titles. So I'll address the second part.

    I think there are several reasons why a lot of people have become critical of the Final Fantasy series under Square Enix. One of the main ones is that that it takes Square Enix too long to develop Final Fantasy titles, which I think is probably one of the worst complaints I see about the series. It makes me wonder if the person asking this question is stuck living in 1999 when game development was much simpler and less expensive than it is today. Modern AAA titles take far more resources and development time to create compared to when they did in the Squaresoft days. I wish we could go back to the old days of 1997-2002 when we had five mainline Final Fantasy titles release consecutively, but unfortunately it just isn't possible anymore. In saying that, I don't think it's fair to criticize Square Enix for this. Time goes on, game development becomes more complex, and video games get harder and more expensive to produce. Those are just the realities of the business.


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  5. #5

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    When other AAA games get sequels within a few years, I think a 10 year development cycle on a Square game that still releases arguably unfinished is worthy of criticism.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Golbez View Post
    When other AAA games get sequels within a few years, I think a 10 year development cycle on a Square game that still releases arguably unfinished is worthy of criticism.
    Oh, we're counting sequels then? Cool, this changes things.

    2009-2010: Final Fantasy XIII
    2010: Final Fantasy XIV (original release)
    2011-2012: Final Fantasy XIII-2
    2013: Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn (complete relaunch of the original FF14)
    2013-2014: Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII
    2015: Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward (expansion)
    2016: Final Fantasy XV
    2017: Final Fantasy XIV: Stormblood
    2019: Final Fantasy XIV: Shadowbringers

    Essentially, over the past decade we've had 10 new entries in the Final Fantasy series.

    If you want to exclude Final Fantasy XIV altogether, that still leaves you with four Final Fantasy titles within a span of 6 years. I'm also excluding all of the story content that has been released for Final Fantasy XV over the years.

    Considering game development can take 3-5 years or even longer, that's pretty damn good.

    But setting this aside, your premise doesn't really apply to Final Fantasy. This isn't a series based on games getting sequels; each new installment might as well be a reboot because nothing about the previous installment is retained in the next title. So you can't exactly suggest "well other game developers release sequels in just 2-3 years, so Square Enix should too!" because Final Fantasy isn't a series where one story is continued across multiple mainline games. And when that does happen in the Final Fantasy series, when they do make sequels to mainline installments, guess what? It only takes them 2 years. Just as good as -- if not better than -- any other game developer.

    So yeah. It's illogical to criticize Square Enix for this.
    Last edited by Scruffington; 03-27-2019 at 03:10 AM.


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  7. #7

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    I want to exclude all of them because nothing you listed there matters. The fact is that FFXV was announced as versus XIII 10 years before it was released. No amount of sequels and spinoffs released in the interim is going to erase that.

    And speaking of premises, your notion that the time between releases is one of the biggest complaints for recent FF games is pretty hard for me to swallow. The only reason that time between releases becomes a cause of complaint in when the quality of the final product is disappointing after the wait. Persona 5 was released 8 1/2 years after Persona 4. I didn't complain, because it didn't disappoint.
    Last edited by Lord Golbez; 03-27-2019 at 04:36 AM.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Golbez View Post
    I want to exclude all of them because nothing you listed there matters.
    This is a fairly dishonest response. When your point is refuted, suddenly those games don't matter? The only thing you've implied that matters to you is "AAA titles" and "sequels." I've listed both, and you dismiss them entirely because "they don't matter." Why don't they matter, exactly? Because they disprove your point?

    The fact is that FFXV was announced as versus XIII 10 years before it was released. No amount of sequels and spinoffs released in the interim is going to erase that.
    Realistically, Final Fantasy XV actually began development around 2012-2013 when Tabata took over Nomura's role as director of the project. So the title took about 4 years of development time. Pretty reasonable, if you ask me.

    I'm not even sure what you're complaining about here. That the original Versus XIII got scrapped? Okay, but that happens all the time in game development. That it took too long to develop? Okay, but it did eventually get released and we're nearly 2.5 years removed from its launch now. Or are you complaining that it took too long in between the other mainline games? Okay, well it actually came out 3 years after the relaunch of FFXIV, which itself came out 3 years after FFXIII. So each mainline title has actually had a pretty reasonable development time.


    And speaking of premises, your notion that the time between releases is one of the biggest complaints for recent FF games is pretty hard for me to swallow. The only reason that time between releases becomes a cause of complaint in when the quality of the final product is disappointing after the wait. Persona 5 was released 8 1/2 years after Persona 4. I didn't complain, because it didn't disappoint.
    So if the argument is about the quality of the title rather than the amount of time it takes for them to come out, then the development time is irrelevant right? Would you complain if Square Enix took 9 years to develop Final Fantasy XVI and it ended up being one of the greatest games of all time? I would wager the answer is no.


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  9. #9

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    Don't willfully misinterpret my response and then accuse me of being dishonest because I don't accept your reinterpretation. I was clearly talking about the development cycle of a game from the start. It's hard to misread "10 years," which was in my initial post. Also, FFXV clearly used assets from the original Versus XIII conception. I have no idea how much they had to remake, but saying it started development after it became FFXV seems off to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scruffington View Post
    So if the argument is about the quality of the title rather than the amount of time it takes for them to come out, then the development time is irrelevant right? Would you complain if Square Enix took 9 years to develop Final Fantasy XVI and it ended up being one of the greatest games of all time? I would wager the answer is no.
    That's true. I wouldn't complain at all. But when it takes almost a decade for a new one to be made, they only have so many chances up at bat in my lifetime, so I certainly don't want them to be taking as long if they keep whiffing.
    Last edited by Lord Golbez; 03-27-2019 at 05:12 AM.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Golbez View Post
    Don't willfully misinterpret my response and then accuse me of being dishonest because I don't accept your reinterpretation. I was clearly talking about the development cycle of a game from the start. It's hard to misread "10 years," which was in my initial post.
    Sorry, but it seemed like you were unfairly dismissing multiple Final Fantasy titles. I also didn't understand what you meant by "none of that matters." I see now that you're strictly zeroed in on FFXV.

    Also, FFXV clearly used assets from the original Versus XIII conception. I have no idea how much they had to remake, but saying it started development after it became FFXV seems off to me.
    There are multiple sources that discuss this, but essentially the project was only about 20-25% complete when Tabata took over. We can see that the original Versus XIII elements were completely reworked with many parts being outright scrapped (such as Stella Nox Fleuret).

    This isn't a case unique to Square Enix, though. The Last Guardian is another prominent title that was infamously stuck in development hell, having been actively worked on since 2007 and releasing 9 years later in 2016. Metal Gear Solid 5 is another famous example; I haven't been able to find out exactly when development of that title started, but the prolonged development cycle of MGS5 was one of the major reasons for Hideo Kojima and Konami's relationship fracturing.

    The point is that sometimes game developers can be a bit too ambitious, which was likely the case with Nomura's original vision for Versus XIII. There's an entire business side to game development, and Square Enix games require far bigger budgets than any other JRPG on the market. I don't really fault Square Enix for kicking Nomura off of the project, and I think Tabata ultimately managed to produce a pretty decent title considering what he had to work with.

    That's true. I wouldn't complain at all. But when it takes almost a decade for a new one to be made, they only have so many chances up at bat in my lifetime, so I certainly don't want them to be taking as long if they keep whiffing.
    This leads into my points from above. I think FFXV's troubled development can be forgiven because it had a really complicated situation, and it wasn't originally intended to be a mainline game in the first place.

    Sure, the Final Fantasy titles of this decade haven't quite reached the level of critical acclaim as the older Final Fantasies. But that's probably more of a testament to Squaresoft's impressive legacy than a slight against Square Enix. I also think it was much easier to create a good JRPG back in the late 90s - early 2000s compared to today.


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  11. #11

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    Well if it was that much easier in the 90s and early 2000s, maybe they should go back to making them 90s style. I know it won't happen, but that would really be my preference over excessively long development times. If FFXV was a fluke, thatbwould be great. However, I'm not encouraged by the lack of so much as an acknowledgement that FFXVI is being developed over 2 years after the release of FFXV. Hopefully, Square has just learned to be more cautious about revealing games too early.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by 8ther View Post
    I never understood this, their recent FF games have all been well received by gaming critics, yet I keep hear things like, “FFX was the last good FF” and “Squaresoft died after becoming Square Enix” why all the hate?
    It depends on who you are.

    Some people think that the "magic" died with IX

    Some X

    Some XII, and that XIII waltzed in and destroyed everything

    Some believe that XV was the final blow


    I believe that even some people think that the magic died with VI and VII was the one that murdered the series.


    I really think it's a generational thing.




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  13. #13
    Radical Dreamer Fynn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx View Post
    because final fantasy is a troutty series?

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Golbez View Post
    Well if it was that much easier in the 90s and early 2000s, maybe they should go back to making them 90s style. I know it won't happen, but that would really be my preference over excessively long development times. If FFXV was a fluke, thatbwould be great. However, I'm not encouraged by the lack of so much as an acknowledgement that FFXVI is being developed over 2 years after the release of FFXV. Hopefully, Square has just learned to be more cautious about revealing games too early.
    Square Enix did release a 90s-style JRPG recently. It's called Octopath Traveler, and it reviewed + sold pretty well apparently.

    The issue Square Enix has now is that they're the de facto big budget Japanese RPG experience on the market. There's no one else in the entire JRPG industry that has produced better visuals or a higher level of graphical performance than they have with Final Fantasy. So the challenge for them is to maintain this reputation -- which is becoming increasingly difficult due to the rising costs and prolonged cycles of game development -- while also still reinventing the series with each new mainline installment.

    Part of me wonders if Final Fantasy should become more like The Legend of Zelda. We've seen Nintendo experiment with different art styles for pretty much every game, none of which are graphically demanding. And with each new entry in the series we see a reinvention of gameplay mechanics while core elements of the series are still retained to some degree. Maybe if Final Fantasy XVI is a massive shakeup of the series in the same way Breath of the Wild was, Square Enix can recapture some of that magic from earlier days.


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  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scruffington View Post

    Square Enix did release a 90s-style JRPG recently. It's called Octopath Traveler, and it reviewed + sold pretty well apparently.
    I was hoping more late 90s, but fair point. I haven't actually played it so can't tell how well it measures up.

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