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Thread: Most Popular FFs "In The West"?

  1. #1

    Default Most Popular FFs "In The West"?

    I haven't been around in a while but i assume somebody posted the NHK FF survey from last year?
    https://www.dualshockers.com/final-f...-poll-results/

    I was totally unsurprised that FFX won. Now we tragically do not have any comparable surveys for us American, European, etc. FF fans BUT I've been posting on forums about FF since 2003. There can only be three real contenders:

    FFVII (front runner for most)
    FFVI
    FFX

    And of these three, I'm afraid I'll hAve to dismiss FFVI as mostly being this


    FFX and FFVII are definitely the most widely popular FF games. The question is does FFX rival or surpass VII?

    Mostly I thought about this topic because I absolutely dread an "FFXR." If they took the best turn-based game in the series and remade it as an ARPG....I'd smurfing lose my mind.

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    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    No, VII is certainly a better game than FFX in pretty much all categories except graphics if we're comparing the originals. FFX to me never had the ambition of most of its predecessors or even the games that came afterwards. Its a safe entry that lacked the same impact as VII.

    VI is still better than both.

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    cheesesteak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover View Post
    The question is does FFX rival or surpass VII?
    In the West, I'd have to say "no". But you are right, FF10 is widely popular here in the West, still. Top 2? Not sure. I think it sorta depends on what you expose yourself to to really gauge it properly? Like, I see more FF12 cosplay than FF10. I see more collectors w/ statues/figures of FF8 characters than FF10. I also see more analysis video essays on FF8 than FF10. Pseudo-ironically, I also believe I see more ppl troutting on FF12 and FF8 than any other pre-FF13 FF lol. And, to be fair, collectibles, cosplay, etc could reflect things other than simply "popularity".

    I do know from my own experiences w/ friends and I believe sales, too, that FFX was massively popular at the time of its release. Not sure how its popularity has aged, but apparently just fine.
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    Witch of Theatergoing Karifean's Avatar
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    I think FFX has a decent chance of beating out FF7 in the west as well. It's always been a game more appreciated by the silent majority than the vocal minority of people who dislike it would lead you to believe. IMO it's also definitely aged better.

    Still, if I had to bet I'd probably always bet on FF7 being at the top. That would mean I'd have lost regarding Japanese fans, but now that the Remake has begun it might have shifted all over again anyways.

    Though - FFXIV is also getting up there, it might just be a matter of time before it reaches the top.

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    Feel the Bern Administrator Del Murder's Avatar
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    It depends on the age group that respond to the poll. 35 and older you will likely see a split between FFVII & FFVI. For under 35 I can see FFX or maybe even XIII winning.

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    Huh? Flower?! What the hell?! Administrator Psychotic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Del Murder View Post
    It depends on the age group that respond to the poll. 35 and older you will likely see a split between FFVII & FFVI. For under 35 I can see FFX or maybe even XIII winning.
    As a 34 and a half year old I take issue with this

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    Feel the Bern Administrator Del Murder's Avatar
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    I round up.

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    Born to be mild Dr. Acula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Del Murder View Post
    It depends on the age group that respond to the poll. 35 and older you will likely see a split between FFVII & FFVI. For under 35 I can see FFX or maybe even XIII winning.
    I'm 29 can I still love FFVII and FFVI best? Don't want to step on any Gen X toes.
    Sigless

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    I'm 26 and my favorite is FFVI, same for a lot of my friends.

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    Feel the Bern Administrator Del Murder's Avatar
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    Maybe Gen Z is the hope for us all.

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    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    The VI love going on here is warming the empty void that was once my heart.

  12. #12

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    Yeah, I've always felt that the love for 10 was mostly for it being a formative experience on a shiny new nex gen platform at the time. There's not really a lot of good arguments defending the bad character writing and weird plot convenience nonsense. I feel like it's mostly just hand-waved away by its fans rather than actually justified or anything. 7 had its wonky translation and a little bit of engrish, but I don't recall any jarring plotholes. And while some of the characters may not be entirely likeable by some people. I don't know if any of them are actively insufferable the way a lot of the cast in 10 is. Rikku is annoying. Wakka is annoying and stupid. Tidus is annoying stupid and immature. Yuna is a meek wet sock, which I can appreciate in her role, but not as her character. She's very obstinant. Which she needs to be. But that's such a contrast to her outright meek personality. It's very jarring. Khimari is nothing and barely exists. Lulu and Auron could easily hold up the entire cast and story, but they are extremely wasted as background characters. And I have little tolerance for the fanservice. Objectively, barely any of these problems are present in FF6 or 7. Tifa has fanservice, but she also has a better and more likeable and well-rounded personality. But other than the graphical and dialog limitations I can't really think of any other objectively valid complaints. And those were more about when the game was released rather than the quality at which it was released at the time. Even as far as villains and compelling story arks. Ten was pretty big step back. Even compared to 9. And I actually don't like 9 either lol I can't help but feel fans for 10 just see it in rose colored glasses because they maybe weren't old enough to see the objectively glaring problems. I guess the same could be said for 7 with me, but you'd think if that were the case I would have immediately given 8 a pass for the same reason. But I also hate 8



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    Witch of Theatergoing Karifean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyk View Post
    Yeah, I've always felt that the love for 10 was mostly for it being a formative experience on a shiny new nex gen platform at the time. There's not really a lot of good arguments defending the bad character writing and weird plot convenience nonsense. I feel like it's mostly just hand-waved away by its fans rather than actually justified or anything. 7 had its wonky translation and a little bit of engrish, but I don't recall any jarring plotholes. And while some of the characters may not be entirely likeable by some people. I don't know if any of them are actively insufferable the way a lot of the cast in 10 is. Rikku is annoying. Wakka is annoying and stupid. Tidus is annoying stupid and immature. Yuna is a meek wet sock, which I can appreciate in her role, but not as her character. She's very obstinant. Which she needs to be. But that's such a contrast to her outright meek personality. It's very jarring. Khimari is nothing and barely exists. Lulu and Auron could easily hold up the entire cast and story, but they are extremely wasted as background characters. And I have little tolerance for the fanservice. Objectively, barely any of these problems are present in FF6 or 7. Tifa has fanservice, but she also has a better and more likeable and well-rounded personality. But other than the graphical and dialog limitations I can't really think of any other objectively valid complaints. And those were more about when the game was released rather than the quality at which it was released at the time. Even as far as villains and compelling story arks. Ten was pretty big step back. Even compared to 9. And I actually don't like 9 either lol I can't help but feel fans for 10 just see it in rose colored glasses because they maybe weren't old enough to see the objectively glaring problems. I guess the same could be said for 7 with me, but you'd think if that were the case I would have immediately given 8 a pass for the same reason. But I also hate 8
    Alright then, if you gotta put it like that I'll take up the challenge.

    From my POV the point kinda defeats itself? You say you find the cast of FFX not likable or insufferable. That means they have actual human personality traits, that you dislike. They are written as human beings, rather than just to fulfill a role. And that in itself to me just shows that its writing is essentially "on a different level". Because you really can't even begin to dislike a lot of the earlier characters, because what is there to dislike? Nothing. Most of them are a fusion of backstory with simple but effective charming character traits; but that's no "personality", and certainly not human.

    Final Fantasy VIII was really the first major departure from this with the infamous orphanage twist being IMO the perfect example of how character backstories are NOT used as substitute for personality in that game. It's jarring if you're used to that sort of thing I guess, but there's something charming to me about how little the orphanage twist matters, because they're not walking backstories, they're *people*. You can tell a line of dialogue Zell says is one of his because... he's Zell. He's fundamentally different from Squall, from Irvine, from Quistis, Selphie, Rinoa, Seifer, everyone else, because he's a *different person*. I'd say this also applies to the core cast of FF VII, but FF VIII is notable in how this feels like the writing behind every single cast member.

    Now take a game from the SNES era. Most of these games have characters who are, as I mentioned before, a fusion of a backstory with simple but effective charming character traits. Some of these might hit or miss for you, I know some people find Bartz's denseness or Edward's cowardice or Edgar's womanizing grating even, but the principle is the same whether it works for you or not. But I can't call that human. I don't see how you could begin to actively dislike characters like them, they're really not defined enough to call forth that level of emotional response in any capacity to begin with. If you have a strong aversion to womanizing maybe you "dislike Edgar", but it's not like that trait of his is narratively relevant. It doesn't inform any of his decisions or feelings in any way that makes them uniquely "his" where someone else would've acted or felt differently. Of course he also only ever makes like 1 or 2 decisions of his own in the entire game. There's just really almost nothing to work with there.

    I know this sounds like I'm ragging on the SNES games but I don't really hold this against them. They are from a different era, attempting actual human writing would have been awkward and simply not playing to their strengths at that point in time. They know what kind of characters they can portray effectively, and they stick to it. And I do find them charming, and a lot of them - like Kefka - are really well done. Plus, ultimately, they are also paving the way for future games to build on the groundwork they laid down. FFX could never have come directly after FFIII obviously. Rather, my point is that I feel like even comparing the characters of a game like FFX and FFIV/V/VI, even Chrono Trigger which is a game I adore, in terms of writing is "unfair", because they're on entirely different levels. Because FFX has the ambition of writing actual human beings. You may dislike them as people, or you may find them unconvincing as humans. The latter is a writing flaw (if accurate), but the former most certainly is not - it's what it *means* to write humans.

    Take a character like Rikku for instance, and how both her environment and personality work together to form her character. She grows up among the Al Bhed, which are essentially archetypical "heroes" in Spira: people who will fight for what they feel is right even if the entire world is against them for it. As a consequence they keep their eyes mostly on doing actual good no matter how it makes them look, leading to them both "kidnapping summoners" while also "heroically guarding them with their lives" at once. Which is reflected differently in Rikku and her pops, because, well, their personalities are different. Cid is confrontative and also has just seen more trout so he has no patience for people's bullcrap, neither the Yevonites who want him dead and he can tell their justifications for it are garbage, nor someone like Tidus who he sure as hell won't trust the words of if his actions don't live up to them. Rikku on the other hand is not that confrontative, but she's not naive either, she doesn't buy people's bulltrout any more than her pops does, certainly not the idea of these pointless summoner sacrifices that ultimately just keep the wheel of death turning. To the point of trying to find a way to go against the party in the latter stages of the pilgrimage. But at the same time she's definitely not as experienced as her pops, as she seriously falters in the face of the impending doom at Zanarkand - she doesn't buy into it having some greater value, but that doesn't mean she has answers. She is also pretty empathetic and wants the people she cares about to be happy, while Cid and demonstrably most other Al Bhed would sooner keep them safe even against their wishes. The effect of Rikku's environment are keenly felt in everything about her, and Rikku and Cid and are parent and child after all, but the core differences in their personalities and experience makes it come out in different ways, resulting in different people. Who she is is even expressed in gameplay as her Steal, Use and Mix abilities has her firmly focused not on false morality or even any sort of physical or magical talent, but rather of making the most effective and creative use of whatever she can get her hands on without holding back, giving her serious combat value in spite of having horrible offense and defense on paper.

    Freaking hell, that was *one* character who even I think the story ultimately did dirty by not including her enough in the later stages of the narrative, but these are observations on *how she acts and feels* and how it is reflective of both her environment as well as what sets *her* apart from others in it, creating an actual human being of a character. THAT'S the level of character writing FFX has, and I dare you to try to make even half that amount of observations and reads on characters in other games in the series, and you better believe I could keep going about Rikku alone for a while still. Hell, I don't even think it's that great in comparison to other RPG series, but it's head and shoulders above its series predecessors without a doubt in my mind.

    I know I'm probably more passionate about FFX than even most of its fans seem to be, but I find that FFX rewards having that level of passion for its writing. I'm also passionate about FFV and a number of other games in the series, but just not for the same things. I think it has an amazing combat system and its story is full of charm and just plain fun. Chrono Trigger is an absolute masterpiece as well, playing to the era's strengths perfectly. And I don't think either of those two "suffer" from not having the kinds of qualities and ambitions FFX has. It's just a different kind of game they play at.

    TL;DR you have your objective and subjective backwards. The cast of FFX is "objectively" written as incomparably more human, but of course you're under no obligation to like them for who they are, and a cast filled with people you don't like is not going to result in a great game experience. That is, however, what "subjective" means, not what "objective" means. At least own your own subjectivity against it and for other games rather than justifying it as objective. I don't hold it to anyone that they have to like FFX for any of what I just said after all, but if you're gonna put things like how you did, saying *I'm* the one with rose colored glasses lacking objective perspective, I will definitely defend its writing =P

    And just as a side note, since you did go a bit more into the jarringness of Yuna's character, that's also just being human. Can confirm since my mother is exactly like that - absolutely hates confrontation but very obstinate about things important to her regardless. It's not a contradiction, it's writing humans.

  14. #14

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    Yep. You did a superb job arguing your points and I can't really disagree at all. Fair play. It's weird because in weaker hands I generally hate Mary Sue characters and plot contrivances. But the context you painted is exactly that so I'm not sure what part of my brain gives those games a pass lol Pure subjective preference I suppose. I'll rest my case that you are right. If that's really how they wanted the cast of X to be portrayed then they accomplished their goal. I just wish they had a different goal. I really don't like that I don't like most of the cast. Very unfortunate. But if they speak to other people who aren't me, and those people enjoy them. I can live with that Appreciate the in depth analysis from a different perspective



  15. #15
    *permanent smite* Spuuky's Avatar
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    In the entire series FFX is my least favorite game by a pretty wide margin. But the question is about which ones are the "most popular," right?

    Which game would win a vote would depend on the demographics you asked. But across everyone who has ever played a Final Fantasy game in the "West," I would have to guess it would win, simply because so many more people played video games by the time X came out than before that, and the ones after it were after the series had somewhat lost its mainstream "shine."

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