That Bloke in the Pipe [SPOILERS]

[Nicholas D. Wolfwood]

Originally posted by Dr. Disco


Considering this was five years later, and the Jenova cells had no effect on him anyway, yup, I guess you got me there.

no, it wasn't five years later. Do you think they instantaneously teleported to midgar from nibelheim? No, it took them awhile to get there. And in any case, he still survived.

I'm no pediatrician, but WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!? You can still get Vincent on Disc 3.

Yeah, I know. If he can walk to the reunion, he can wake up and walk back, ya know.

1)The Jenova cells didn't turn into random horror movie monsters, they turned into Jenova monsters. Their actual genetics didn't change, it was more like they grew into the Jenova battles. Oh, and I believe Jenova Synthesis was the real Jenova.
2)Combining with those other two monsters is what got Hojo on his way to mutation.

they still grew. And none of them looked like the Jenova that you see in shinra, or at nibelheim.

Could you tell me, exactly, where it says Vincent actually died? Here's a little help to get you on your way:IT DOESN'T.

I'm pretty sure that in the letter hojo leaves, he says that he "brought him back". Back from what? Mexico?

Blah.

Agreed.

That's fair, but keep in mind Hojo still destroyed Lucrecia's life. That would be enough incentive to join Cloud and go after him.

But vincent didn't blame hojo. He blamed himself. That's why he was sleeping. If he wanted to kill hojo, he could have done that right when hojo finished the job on him.

Its possible in the sense that Barret is really the Lord Jesus Christ that got lost in a dimensional warp to go fight the ShinRa in Final Fantasy VII. It doesn't say it in the game, and you never know, but it'd be pretty stupid if he was.

It's a long shot, but could make sense. That's all I'm saying. Once again, defending the theory for fanfic purposes.

[Koi Lung Fish]

It DOESN'T say "brought him back"; it says "scientifically altered him and put him to sleep." Now, I suspect it may say scientifically in one version and genetically in another, but nowhere in the Hojo's letter does he refer to bringing Vincent back from anywhere.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
Yeah, I know. If he can walk to the reunion, he can wake up and walk back, ya know.

Watch the scene in the Whirlwind Maze again, the one in which all the Jenova-riddled cloaked men are marching toward the site of the Reunion. Sephiroth (in appearance, at least) eventually encounters them, and then what does he do? He slaughters them, all of them. I somehow don't see Vincent walking back from that.

[abrojtm]

Speaking of the men at the Reunion, they were also injected with Jenova cells but they got killed with a single slash. I think that one bullet to Zack's head would kill him enough and I didn't quite see too many (none) of the black cloaked people get up from that slash.

[Dr. Disco]

Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
no, it wasn't five years later. Do you think they instantaneously teleported to midgar from nibelheim? No, it took them awhile to get there. And in any case, he still survived.

Umm, I'm pretty sure they spent five years in the ShinRa Mansion. I mean, it might've taken a kind of long while to get to Nibelheim from there, but it can't have been that long, since they even hitched a ride at least once.
I mean, hell, FFVII itself doesn't happen over a course of years, and your party goes from end to end of the globe, several times.

Yeah, I know. If he can walk to the reunion, he can wake up and walk back, ya know.

What kishi said.

they still grew. And none of them looked like the Jenova that you see in shinra, or at nibelheim.

Actually, they did. Same tentacle-ish structures sprouting from the shoulders, same fat bottom-half, same breasts.

I'm pretty sure that in the letter hojo leaves, he says that he "brought him back". Back from what? Mexico?

What lungy said.

Agreed.

A woman made entirely out of pie?

But vincent didn't blame hojo. He blamed himself. That's why he was sleeping. If he wanted to kill hojo, he could have done that right when hojo finished the job on him.

True, but he still hated Hojo.

It's a long shot, but could make sense. That's all I'm saying. Once again, defending the theory for fanfic purposes.

Not just a long shot, a really big fuggin' long shot.

[Nicholas D. Wolfwood]

Originally posted by Dr. Disco


Umm, I'm pretty sure they spent five years in the ShinRa Mansion. I mean, it might've taken a kind of long while to get to Nibelheim from there, but it can't have been that long, since they even hitched a ride at least once.
I mean, hell, FFVII itself doesn't happen over a course of years, and your party goes from end to end of the globe, several times.

It normally would have taken them a great deal of months to do that. They're just not gonna show all that in the game, because they want it to progress a bit faster, thus cloud makes it 100 miles in a single step. At the speed that truck was going, it would have taken them all day to get from gongaga to cosmo canyon.

What kishi said.[/B]

Vincent would have fallen back from the others. They were roaming freely around not just nibelheim, but the whole world. Vincent was in a coffin in a locked basement room.

Actually, they did. Same tentacle-ish structures sprouting from the shoulders, same fat bottom-half, same breasts.

That's odd, I could have sworn they were a helluva lot bigger than the Jenova Sephiroth removed from nibelheim.

What lungy said.

Well, then maybe he wasn't dead. That I'll admit. It's been awhile since I played that part....but there's a possibility that he died. And though everything I'm explaining in my posts is a longshot, it's still possible.

A woman made entirely out of pie?

Only apple pie.

True, but he still hated Hojo.

But he already knew of Hojo. Something else made him change his mind when you left the basement.

Not just a long shot, a really big fuggin' long shot.

And still holding that small window where the light of possibility can shine through......

[Dr. Disco]

Well, this debate has gone just about as far as it can...there's an extremely, extremely slim chance Vincent was a Sephiroth clone and Zack survived(Read:No and no), which could be used for fan fiction, but, yeah. If we were to continue, it'd go like this:
Me:"So, Zack was shot repeatedly in the face with a machine gun but survived because of his Jenova healing powers, and was also a Sephiroth clone for some reason. Also, Vincent was a Sephiroth clone who headed towards the Reunion but didn't make it then went back(And apparently re-locked the door and put the key back in the safe with the monster)."

You:"Hey, it could've happened!"

...Wait, I just realized how insane your entire theory sounds. No, there is no way that man is Zack. If it was, why would he have the number tattoo? Cloud didn't get one, now did he?

I guess this debate ISN'T over, so
<Image edited by Kishi, for the sake of the children.>

[Nicholas D. Wolfwood]

just where did I say anybody was a sephiroth clone? I said they had Jenova cells. That doesn't mean anybody with Jenova cells is a sephiroth clone. Zack had a number, yes. So did Nanaki, in case you hadn't noticed. Nor did I say Vincent "never made it" to the reunion, though it is a more plausible theory that he tried, but couldn't get past the locked door. I originally meant that he made it there after your party already passed through. But hey, I'll stick with whatever's simpler to explain. So once again, it's possible. Possible. I didn't say it's the truth, or that it holds relevance to the game, or even that it was probable. I was saying that through certain explanation and assumption, it's possible. Let's leave it at that. Unless you have more misunderstandings and questions that you're going to try and throw into it.

[Koi Lung Fish]

Wolfwood & Dr Disco:

1) If Zack was treated with the same Jenova/Mako mix that was used on Cloud and the Clones, he was a Clone, even if he had no reaction: he'd had the same treatments.

2) Vincent was NOT a clone: whatever was done to him was done thirty-ish years before Hojo did the clones.

3) Zack did not have a number; like Cloud.

4) A locked door, stopping Vincent? The same guy who can, oh, turn into ferocious monsters and toss a solid metal coffin lid across a room with his mind? Like hell. And if he got out, how did he manage to relock the door when he'd put the key back in the safe?

5) Vincent's status as live or dead is questionable: he's been in a coffin for thirty years, no water, possibly even no air. Metabolically speaking, he must be dead. Whether or not Hojo shooting him was the cause of his death is highly debatable.

[Nicholas D. Wolfwood]

To what you said about vincent's limit break, he can only transform if his limit guage fills. In an empty room with no enemies, how exactly does that happen? His only way of getting out would be to shoot the door. If it's sturdy enough, that's not gonna do much.

[abrojtm]

Actually, there are bats around there *shudders at pesky blood-suckin bats*

[Koi Lung Fish]

Wolfwood, you do know that Vincent enters your party with a half-full limit metre, don't you?

[Nicholas D. Wolfwood]

exactly. If it were empty, that would mean that he's used the limit break recently, knocking down the door. Half full is how far he got it over the past several years, and it would take him several years to get it that high fighting bats.

[Sephex]

All of this makes so much sense, did you know you can also revive Aeris?[sarcasm]

[Nicholas D. Wolfwood]

It's possible. That's all I'm saying. For the fiftieth time in this topic....it appears that I have to say that at least every other post. But in any case, sephex, note that your sarcasm adds nothing to this debate. It makes no point. It proves nothing. All it is is an attempted mockery. We don't need it here. So until you find a way to make yourself useful, keep your mouth shut.

[Sephex]

Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
It's possible. That's all I'm saying. For the fiftieth time in this topic....it appears that I have to say that at least every other post. But in any case, sephex, note that your sarcasm adds nothing to this debate. It makes no point. It proves nothing. All it is is an attempted mockery. We don't need it here. So until you find a way to make yourself useful, keep your mouth shut.

Since no one listened to me on my initial post I decided to be more up front with it. Your attitude doesn't scare me by the way. I said before that I respect all of your opinions and I am glad and I think it is cool that you are interested into the game so deeply. I would be a hypocrite if I siad that I didn't get in any conversations such as this one. But everyone is going into circles about everything and finding the simplest things about a certain scene and REALLY streching them to suit their opinion of what happened.

I personaly find that really "useless" and it aslo "proves nothing". Does the fact that the guy in the pipe may be Zack or all the stuff about Vincent keep you up at night? Is it really that important? Instead of wondering something that isn't even that important to the game, why don't you just enjoy the game and accept the fac the other peoples opinions differ.

There is nothing wrong with debating, but how many times do you have to repeat yourself before it gets old?

[Nicholas D. Wolfwood]

opinion? no, no, no. This is not opinion. It's not important, but it's not opinion either. I'm pointing out that it's possible, though it doesn't have any relevance to the game. But every time I say it is possible, some idiot feels they have to step up to try and explain why it isn't possible. As little as it matters that I think it is possible, it doesn't matter any more that they think it isn't. And if they're going to criticize my statements and act like what I've said is ridiculous and impossible, just what in the blue moons of crangar do you expect me to do? Cower and apologize? Run away and give them the satisfaction of thinking they've defeated me? Sorry, if you people truly believe what you say about me, then you'll know I'm one proud, arrogant sonofa bitch. As long as people ridicule me, I'll step up to defend myself. You want to complain to somebody? Complain to them. It's not like I'm a violent predator here. And I only repeat myself when other peoples' questions and comments are repeated. You think I'm trying to scare you with my "attitude"? pfft. I know better than to think I can scare people with text on a screen. I think you know that. It's likely you just said that to try and assert yourself. Well I'll tell you right now, you're not shaking my confidence here either.

[Nemesis the Warlock]

Does the fact that the guy in the pipe may be Zack or all the stuff about Vincent keep you up at night?

Apparently, it keeps up Nick Wolfy. Nick, what are you twisting your knickers for? Some people disagree with you, because the majority has read your posts carefully enough to know that your Zack-theory is impossible. Is that a reason to intimidate them, tell them to shut up and call them cretins? Actually, I doubt your right to tell people to shut up.
*Doesn't shut up*
See? Now what?
I am not trying to get personal, Nick. I am getting tired of interesting threads being closed down because of you, though. I was planning to reply to some of them...

[Nicholas D. Wolfwood]

because of me? No. People want to discuss why my Zack theory is impossible. I already know it's improbable, but it is possible, and I'll stay to defend that statement as long as is necessary. I only tell people to shut up if their posts are obvious spam that doesn't contribute anything. For example, what we've been doing the last five posts. Topics don't get closed down because of me. All I do is defend my opinions when they're attacked, for example, this topic. But then, people such as yourself and Sephex try to make things personal, and turn it into a "I hate Nick" thread. Basically, all you people give me is borderline flames just because you don't happen to agree with me. If you want to maturely debate it, that's fine with me. But ridiculing it and spitting on it isn't necessary. Nor is taking things completely off topic just to try and tell me what a horrible person I am, and how much you hate me. All I want to do is post my opinions without people immediately jumping on my ass for it. Why can't I ever get that? People seem to think I'm such a horrible guy, yet I don't quite get it. They're the ones who start things. I just defend myself, that's all. And I'd appreciate it if you people would just back off and stop making trout with me every time I post.

[Koi Lung Fish]

Getting back to(wards) the topic:

About Vincent; his limit starts half-full, and he's not at that high a level. Plus he's on his Level 1 Limit; his limit meter would fill up after a few battles, not many, as you suggest. Besides, as I said, Vincent is capable of throwing a metal coffin lid around with his mind - what's a wooden door going to do against him?

About Zack; What, precisely, are you trying to say? That Zack *could* have survived, albeit looking so unlike himself and so mentally damaged as to be, practically speaking, someone else?

[Nicholas D. Wolfwood]

about vincent: His locked room was likely a bat free zone, until cloud let them all in. It's possible that upon revival, his limit guage filled that far from his anger at hojo. As for lifting the coffin lid, that isn't necessarily locked and bolted, is it?

[Sephex]

[i] But then, people such as yourself and Sephex try to make things personal, and turn it into a "I hate Nick" thread. [/B]

THATS b*******. I stated MY opinion about EVERYONE needing to relax about certain things. Not only you. YOU chose to reply and YOU chose to take this personaly.

Once again. Using vulgar language and having some bad ass attitude doesn't scare anybody, so stop acting like a 13 year old.

And once again, I decided to be sarcastic becasue no one payed attention to my first post in here. IT IS MY OPINION of how I feel about certain things. It is on topic, because I am talking about how THIS TOPIC has gone to far, and people are streching facts very far just to suit thier own opinion. Thats my problem. I decided to post about this now because there has been like, 1000 topics like this that I want to talk in, but people start doing this thing where it goes to far, and it comes down to two people bitching at eachother. There is a HUGE difference between threads liek these and (rare)threads that people actualy debate in.

[Koi Lung Fish]

Bats aside (this entire thread is bats) a solid metal coffin lid is both heavier and sturdier than a mouldering wooden door.

[Dr. Disco]

Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
It's possible that upon revival, his limit guage filled that far from his anger at hojo.

You're reeeeaaaaally reaching here, nico.

[The One Winged Angel]

hmm.. i'm incined to agree with nicos here.. i mean it isn't likely but from what u have said it is POSSIBLE.. i mean fine it's unlikely...

also it is quite likely that hoko anger is why he has limit at the start.. i mean what else is gonna annoy him?.. u saw how much he hates hojo and the past.. i mean he might b a lil miffed at being woken up.. tho IMO he shouldn't really i mean 30 yrs or wotever is quite enough.. but still he ain't gonna b THAT PO'd

[abrojtm]

Come to think of it-Zack can't possibly be the bloke in the pipe.

All the Sephiroth clones have numbers tatooed on them and the bloke is number one.

Most of his handicaps (speech, physical) are because he was the frist clone.
He was the ginea(how da poo you spell it lol) pig and had some problems. Hojo just dumped him out of the ShinRa building at sector 5(?) and left him to go back to the ShinRa building to make a more perfect clone.

[Nicholas D. Wolfwood]

Sephex, you practically told us to discontinue the topic. Which I agree with, pretty much. But the way you did it wasn't so polite, and sure as hell made it look as if it were directed at me. Once again, my vulgar language and "badass attitude" aren't meant to scare people. How many more times am I gonna have to tell you that? As many times as I'm telling people that I'm only stating possibilities rather than facts? I really fail to see how telling people to stop their discussion is on topic....but in any case, you mentioned how people were taking small things and overstretching them. How unlikely everything in this topic is. Well, in case you hadn't noticed, those are the top arguments used against me. This place is to discuss the guy in the pipe. If you have a theory or opinion on that, go ahead and say it. Don't criticize other people for arguing.

Carp Lung Fish: The coffin lid is wood. Not metal. IF it were metal, it would be shinier, unless it were made of carbon, which is just ridiculous. Plus, the sound it makes when it lands is obviously wooden.

abrojtm: Actually, I believe the dude in the pipe has a 2 on his hand. And I don't remember any place in the game that it says Zack doesn't have a tattoo. So it's still a possibility.

[abrojtm]

Yea, sorry it is a number 2- I was thinkin of the "Sephy" that goes through Corel that has a 1 (some guy in Corel says he wishes he had one and his would be a "0" cause thats all he's worth, made me sad) but that guy was a perfect clone (the one who killed Midgar Zolom) but we KNOW that Zack wasn't a clone because you meet his parents.

[Nicholas D. Wolfwood]

And we know that cloud isn't a clone since we meet Tifa. But does the number say he's a perfect clone? No.

[Nemesis the Warlock]

Zack is not one of the clone thingies. They are inside of the metal containers in the Nibelheim reactor. Him and Sephiroth are standing outside those containers, looking in through the little glass window. Zack cannot be two people at once.

It does not mention anywhere in the game that Jenova can grow back lost heads.

And, regarding:

The coffin lid is wood. Not metal. IF it were metal, it would be shinier, unless it were made of carbon, which is just ridiculous.

Or unless it were made of cast iron, like a lot of coffins. Or copper, which oxidizes into some green stuff. Or unless the coffin had been lying there for a few years without dusting or polishing. Metal is not always shiny. On the other hand, pure carbon is definitely shiny.

You can't fill up someone's limit gauge by making him angry. Otherwise Barret could do limit breaks all the time...

Off topic: What part of

I am not trying to get personal, Nick.

didn't I make clear? Don't be paranoid. If we would really hate you, would we communicate with you?