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Thread: two sephiroths

  1. #166
    A Big Deal? Recognized Member Big D's Avatar
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    At one point, the voice in Cloud's head tells him, 'It's started moving..." referring, I believe, to Jenova, who was just about to break out of Shinra's confinement at that time.
    I believe that Jenova may have broken herself out of the tank - after all, look at the damage to the building. She then may have needed Sephiroth's guidance in order to navigate the outside world. She did have no head, which would make it somewhat difficult. So Sephiroth (or his manifestation, if you believe that theory) picked her up and carried her off after nailing President Shinra to the floor with his Masamune.
    As for the timing of Jenova's escape/ release? It may have something to do with the Reunion. There were many members of SOLDIER in the Shinra building. Cloud, also, had been drawn there by fate - or was it a more powerful compulsion? Anyway, a lot of carriers of Jenova's cells were gathered in the one place. That may have given her the strength she needed to break out, in order to head for the North Cave to complete the Reunion.
    Now, about Cloud's door:
    If the door was opened so that Cloud could escape and free Jenova, then Tifa would have heard the considerable ruckus going on outside. Don't forget that Jenova's rampage tore huge sheets of metal walls, which makes a fair racket.
    It's only fair to assume that the door was opened after Jenova had left.
    Notice how the dead guard isn't surrounded by that red goo, and there's no heavy structural damage to the walls near him? This suggests, to me, that he (barely) survived Jenova's onslaught, and later crawled to the only people left alive on the floor - Cloud and co. He needed help. He'd have been too badly injured to think of, or implement a better plan; he couldn't take the stairs because that's the way Jenova's trail led. Going to the elevator would've required going a long way, past innumerable escaped monsters. So I figure that he staggered back to his post - the cell wing - and unlocked Cloud's door before stumbling to his death at the end of the corridor. By this reasoning, the door wasn't opened until after Jenova had left. Cloud and Tifa wouldn't have been woken by the noise of the fighting.(I know the team could easily whisper from one cell to the next, but it's fair to assume that the cells would have their own ventilation system, which would easily conduct sound from one room to the next, but not to the corridors outside).

    Just another strange theory from me, but it fits <most of> the facts fairly well, without suggesting any deep conspiracies involving Hojo's deception, Cloud's mindlessness, or the unspeakable vengeance of Sephiroth's long-lost assistant under-secretary.

    *Waits for Phoenix 17 and Raistlin to spot the holes, which are probably perfectly obvious except I've somehow missed them*

  2. #167
    I have one matching sock PhoenixAsh's Avatar
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    Think I'll go person by person.

    Storm we seem to agree in almost every department, except that a clone has no reason to look like Sephiroth.

    Big D, that theory is in my opinion the second most likely. All I have to say is that the guard not being damaged as much can be explained much easier by simply Cloud killing him, and I think the timing is much better explained by Cloud. As for hearing, well given there's no sound we could all decide different ways sound could work in the cells to fit our theories.
    Other than the needing Sephiroth's help, I'd follow this theory, if I didn't think Cloud explained things with less coincidence.

    .......Raistlin. Although I think Storm explained all your points a few minutes before you posted, I take your edit to mean you stand by your arguements.
    Jenova- the timing is insane, the door is pointless.
    Hojo- believing Hojo did it requires so much imagination I'm not even gonna try.
    Cloud. Getting out of the cell has to be explained no matter what, this theory EXPLAINS it.
    Cloud opening the tank requires no real thought, he's basically as strong as Seph, and if under Jenova's control...
    Cloud was asleep, do you ever watch Cloud sleep? The only time you don't watch Cloud is when he isn't in control of himself. You don't watch anyone after Disc two for a while, because nothing happens, and the designers didn't want you to know.

    Edit: Okay Big D I was too tempted by that challenge so I checked back. Other than Sephiroth helping (which is the point of the thread really, and I've tried to stop this becoming about the tank again), why would the guard crawl to Cloud(if I remember the layout right), turn around and crawl back towards Jenova?
    Last edited by PhoenixAsh; 03-25-2003 at 06:52 PM.

    I say what I think. If you disagree, then that is up to you.

  3. #168
    Shlup's Retired Pimp Recognized Member Raistlin's Avatar
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    Why doesn't the camera follow Cloud? That's a flaw. What about the damage around Jenova's container? That's a flaw. How did Cloud get out? That's a flaw. If he broke out, why isn't there similar damage to the cell door? That's a flaw.

    Jenova getting out herself has one assumption. No flaws.

    Jenova did not have to open Cloud's door though. It could have been opened by that dead MP outside who was running from Jenova. It doesn't really matter, anyways.
    So I somewhat agreed with D on this, but I think the soldier tried to open the cell door while fully alive, and then was killed right after.

  4. #169
    A Big Deal? Recognized Member Big D's Avatar
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    Indeed.
    Why would Jenova go to all the trouble of manipulating Cloud while he was asleep, helping him sneak out of his cell, erasing his memory, (preventing the camera following him), and then getting him back to his cell after releasing her? I mean, if she wanted to keep it secret, as those assumptions imply, the she'd have remembered to shut the door behind him so that he wouldn't know anything had happened. An open door is usually a pretty good sign that something's up; closing it is a surefire way to prevent your 'puppet' from finding out that something is amiss.

  5. #170
    Shlup's Retired Pimp Recognized Member Raistlin's Avatar
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    Well, Cloud was supposed to find something amiss, I guess. Jenova was manipulating him.

    But the fact remains that if Cloud had the ability to open the cell door, he'd have done it before they all fell asleep. There's many more flaws, which leads to more assumptions, to believe that Cloud released Jenova.

    I don't think Jenova opened the cell, either. As I said, I believe it was the soldier, running from Jenova. He died just as he was opening the door, and didn't get the chance to go through.

  6. #171

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    Raistlin, I have a few questions.

    Did the guard open the cell when it saw Jenova enter the room, or after he was brutally attacked?

    If the soldier was brutally attacked first, then there should be a trail of blood from the soldier's position to the cell door. And if so, why wouldn't the soldier open the cell closest to him? Also, why would the soldier open the cell and then crawl back to the entrance of the prison? The soldier was injured and wanted help, so why would it crawl away from the people that would help him?

    If the soldier saw Jenova and then opened the cell, how could have Cloud and Tifa not heard Jenova attack the guard? You would have to ASSUME that the cell door takes several minutes to open, but we known this is not true because Cloud opens the other two cells in a matter of seconds.

    So, I think we can pretty much scratch out the idea that the soldier opened the cell.

  7. #172
    I have one matching sock PhoenixAsh's Avatar
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    I think Storm cleared that up pretty well.

    As for the other points:
    Cloud forgetting, I'm sick of explaining this, please explain why every single time I've went through this I've been wrong before asking yet again.
    The damage around Jenova's container, I doubt she'd be gentle in opening the door, Cloud would only need to break the lock or use a terminal or etc.
    Cloud getting out, this needs to be explained nomatter what theory you go with, there's no reason the Cloud theory should be the corner defending it.

    Jenova getting herself out requires many assumptions, and explains very little.
    Jenova has to be able to get out, unlikely given Shinra wouldn't put her in a container that was THAT easy to escape. If that's true or not, why did she do it at that EXACT time. I don't know how many years Jenova's been stuck in various places, she chooses the ONLY time she has access to a puppet with the ability to free her. By only, I mean ONLY. Cloud's cell was opened at random. Jenova got lost on her way to Shinra and headed for the cells first.

    I say what I think. If you disagree, then that is up to you.

  8. #173
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    Well I haven't read all the topic...anyway I'm going to post

    Sephiroth: The ability to change one's looks, voice,
    and words, is the power of Jenova.

    Every time you are about to fight Sephirot, a Jenova creature appears(jenova live,...jenova deaht) and you have to fight them. So, if Jenovas power is to change one's looks, voice and words... it could be that those creatures are the ones taking the form of Sephirot, the ones that killed Aeris. So, wile the true Sephirot was in the crater, Jenova was the one that Cloud was chasing.

    ... well, anyway, I'm not sure...


  9. #174
    Shlup's Retired Pimp Recognized Member Raistlin's Avatar
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    Storm: no matter how/when the soldier outside the cell died, there'd have to be blood leading to him. Using that as sole evidence against a theory is pretty weak.

    The blood not being there is just a game mechanics error, I'd imagine.

  10. #175
    A Big Deal? Recognized Member Big D's Avatar
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    It's possible to die of horrific injuries without bleeding all over the place. Internal wounds, blunt impact... those can be rather fatal.
    There's such a huge amount of that blood-like red substance around the Shinra complex, even on the stairs where there are no corpses, so I've always assumed it was some kind of 'Jenova Juice' that oozed out of Jenova as she escaped. Perhaps it was even that fluid she was suspended in when she was in the tank? Just a thought.
    It doesn't look that much like blood.

  11. #176
    Ten-Year Vet Recognized Member Kawaii Ryűkishi's Avatar
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    Yeah, it's not really blood, but I go on calling it that because of the title of the song that first plays when the party stumbles upon the scene--"Trail of Blood."

  12. #177

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    The ongoing debate about Sephiroth/Jenova... It seems to never come to a close.
    I believe that Jenova breaks out of the Shinra mansion in the form as Sephiroth and then begins a search for the black materia. When Jenova took the form of Sephiroth, it held most of Sephiroth's intentions and opinions, (becoming a god), as well as it's own goals (becoming complete and sucking the planet of its life energy). Both Sephiroth and Jenova end up wanting to control the life stream eventually. When Sephiroth was thrown into the life stream, I remember that Jenova's head was with him. (why he cut off it's head has some unknown significance i believe....) I think they became one in a way by their similar intentions. Sephiroth's newly acquired intelligence from the life stream and Jenova's abilities as well as both their intentions of controlling the planet's energy made the 2 use eachothers abilites and knowledge to achieve their goals. They are in way one, at the the same time they are separate beings.
    During the final boss battle, I noticed the difference between the forms of Jenova and Sephiroth.The battle consists of Jenova Synthesis first, then Bizzaro and Safer Sephiroth, and finally Sephiroth himself. first its Jenova alone, then a form of Sephiroth and Jenova where Jenova is more in enforcement, then a form of the two where Sephiroth is more in control, and then Sephiroth alone.

    Jenova----Jenova/Sephiroth------Sephiroth/Jenova-------Sephiroth

    This is all just my own speculation and i have no intention of enforcin my theory as a fact, as there are many possibilities for the famous, endless Jenova/Sephiroth theory. I wonder wut kind of criticism im in for... hahahah

  13. #178
    A Big Deal? Recognized Member Big D's Avatar
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    [q=ThE dArK oNe]During the final boss battle, I noticed the difference between the forms of Jenova and Sephiroth.The battle consists of Jenova Synthesis first, then Bizzaro and Safer Sephiroth, and finally Sephiroth himself. first its Jenova alone, then a form of Sephiroth and Jenova where Jenova is more in enforcement, then a form of the two where Sephiroth is more in control, and then Sephiroth alone.

    Jenova----Jenova/Sephiroth------Sephiroth/Jenova-------Sephiroth
    [/q]
    Very interesting observation there... as for the other aspects of your theory, they've been fairly well discussed, so I won't add my own unnecessary opinion.

    As for Sephiroth decapitating Jenova... I believe he did that simply because he couldn't find a way to free her completely from Shinra's machine. He was probably being influenced by her at the time (after all, who in their right mind would cut off their own ''mother's'' head?); Jenova knew she could survive with her body dismembered, having Sephiroth remove her head gave at least one part of her the freedom she needed to set her fiendish plot in motion...

  14. #179

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    In the end, Sephiroth is an insane person with power. If you give an insane person power... They come to the conclusion that they should be a god. -_- -_-

  15. #180

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    A thought---- does jenova necessarily have to be controlling the sephiroth clones....what if Sephiroth himself is controlling his clones?

    the orders sephiroth has can in fact be from Sephiroth....it is all speculative....

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