two sephiroths

[Captain]

Originally posted by Phoenix 17
My money's still on Cloud opening the tank.

We know you don't chase the real Sephiroth in the game. We know Jenova's power. We know the whole point of the reunion is to get Jenova back together. As far as I can see, there's very little to suggest you ARE chasing Sephiroth.

I still doubt the manifestation theory, creating solid mass out of will? Kinda hard to believe.

Cloud opening the tank? Not even remotely eluded to in the story whatsoever. Especially considering he's locked up at the time. It's just not at all even suggested.

So you can believe that it's possible for a company to drain the life blood of a planet and convert it to electric power, that an ancient space alien allows people to increase their strength 100-fold just by injecting themselves with her cells and that your average Joe can call upon the natural powers of fire, ice, lightning and earth and mighty mythical beasts to aid in his journey.... yet considering an obviously super-powerful-on-his-way-to-Godlihood-uniquely-created-being can will a physical representation of himself into existance is difficult to swallow?

....Right.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Originally posted by Captain
Considering that Jenova's tank has been ripped, hacked and slahed to peices doesn't really fit with Hojo letting her loose. She was obviously forcibly extracted from that tank.

As I mentioned before, I infer from the ripped-up walls that Jenova escaped of its own strength.

Originally posted by Big D
'Safer' is rumoured to have something to do with 'Seraph' - an angel of the highest order. Seraphim have six wings, just like 'Safer Sephiroth' would if you discounted his abnormal 'dark' wing.

No. "Safer Sephiroth" is a mistranslation of Sepher Sephiroth, which translates to "The Book of Numbers," which itself ties into the Kabbalistic origin of Sephiroth's name, which you can study here.

[PhoenixAsh]

Cloud opening the tank has been discussed already in this thread, and there's plenty to suggest it.

Yep, thats how crazy a solid manifistation sounds.

Sephiroth a super-powerful-on-his-way-to-Godlihood-uniquely-created-being? Hardly. He's a bit strong. Not a LOT strong, a bit strong. He wasn't created, he just has more concentrated Jenova in him, his uniqueness solely comes from Jenova having more effect on him.

[Raistlin]

Jenova getting out herself sounds far more reasonable than Cloud letting her out. Cloud letting her out is even less believable than Hojo letting her out, which is not hinted at in the game at all.

And, Phoenix: Captain was purposely exagerating a bit, btw.

[PhoenixAsh]

Other people and myself have already given evidence as to why it could be Cloud, noone has given evidence it could be Hojo. He could have been involved, but he didnt release her.
That was in a place beyond exageration if that was how it was intended. It would also be easy to misinterpret given people are giving Sephiroth more credit than an ACTUAL near god.

[DJZen]

I like captain's point here. The reality we're discussing is not our own. It's a world that has higher technology than ours, and an X factor called magic that doesn't even exist in reality. In short, even if it seems unlikely, it's not impossible. Then again, that's just my philosophy of life in general

[Psychotic]

Jenova came down from "the heavens" a while ago, at the North Crater, causing the crater. She tricked a race as powerul as the Cetra into thinking she was their dead ancestors, then wiped them out - or close enough to it.

Does that not show how powerful Jenova is, and possibly how she got herself out.

But the question remains, why did she use Sephiroth as her puppet? And How could she do this being that Sephiroth was killed/frozen in Mako 5 years ago?
Well, she didn't chose Cloud, because he could resist her will - some of the time. At the start of the game when he blows up the reactor with Barret he freaks out - he is going against her will. The same can be said for when Jenova tries to get Cloud to kill Aeris, but doesn't succeed.
Sephiroth on the other hand, is a perfect puppet. He was driven insane by trying to discover the truth, and therefore has his own weird ideas about becoming a god. But, like I say, how could she use him after what happened? Before it happened, Sephiroth was a legendary swordsman. In the Nibelheim flashback, he totally outmatched Cloud's skill. In the first couple of battles at the end with him, he certainly lives up to this - but he is combined with Jenova in both. Jenova is defeated in the Safer Sephiroth battle, leaving Sephiroth on his own. Yet in the final battle, he is destroyed with ease - random encounters are often harder that that! Why did the legendary elite member of SOLDIER Sephiroth become weak?
He had to have died 5 years ago - and this is one of the "clones" in black hoods being manipulated by Jenova. Jenova makes everyone think that it is Sephiroth(remember what she did to the Cetra). The Black Hood - who I know nothing about, it could have been a member of SOLDIER or it could have been a failed experiment by Hojo, obviously cannot match up to Cloud. Yet, Jenova manipulates it into thinking exactly like Sephiroth would, with all his memories and thoughts. Proof? well, not much, but there are certain lines, like this one from Aeris's death. I assume people who haven't got that far are no longer reading after 6 pages of stuff they had no idea about, so no spoiler tags

Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha...... Stop acting as if you were sad. There's no need to act as though you're angry either. Because, Cloud. You are...

Jenova: Because, you are...... a puppet.


Correct me if I am wrong, but that is Jenova's only line in the game. Why does she finish "Sephiroth"'s sentence? We are made to think she is calling Cloud a puppet, due to what "Sephiroth" says, but is she really telling Black Hooded man he is a puppet?

[Captain]

Originally posted by Phoenix 17
Other people and myself have already given evidence as to why it could be Cloud, noone has given evidence it could be Hojo. He could have been involved, but he didnt release her.
That was in a place beyond exageration if that was how it was intended. It would also be easy to misinterpret given people are giving Sephiroth more credit than an ACTUAL near god.

There simply is no evidence suggesting that Cloud released Jenova. Asking questions like, "Why would this happen when he is in this location at this time for this reason" etc. is silly. This is a story. Stories tend to allow for great coincidences to happen because otherwise we'd end up bored to death waiting for something to happen. Would you rather the game make you sit in the cells for days or weeks while we wait for some event to occur to progress the story? I mean come on.

You all seem to forget that this isn't reality. This is a story. Within this story is a plot, a plot which we are SHOWN, in time, complete with story-progressing coincidences. The info we get at the END of the game is the info we need to draw conclusions. There is NOTHING conclusive to the story that says Jenova was in charge, there is NOTHING conclusive to the story that Cloud let Jenova out. The story itself, up until the last THREE battles show us Sephiroth. They even have an elaborately orchestrated song complete with chorus speaking his NAME over and over.

We are told in the building that it is Sephiroth (or a reasonable facsimile) that killed the President. If this "Sephiroth" could kill everyone on the upper 4 floors of the building and leave behind so much damage, WHY would it need Cloud to release Jenova? Even if it IS Jenova and not a Sephiroth manifestation, with that power WHY would it need Cloud to release it from such a simplistic tank? If you wanna nitpick, Cloud couldn't even lift a peice of metal off Cid WITH HELP, so how could he possibly release Jenova from that tank?

We are never explicitly TOLD that Jenova is doing much of anything. All we hear about through 80% of the game is SEPHIROTH. Everythign else anyone says is mere speculation and twisting every little nitpick of a fact to turn in their favor. But the dialogue and hard facts of the story itself, written out is what brings me to MY conclusions. Not speculation.

That is my final thought on this matter, unless someone reveals a more sensible stream of facts. But I think the story, like EVERY story, speaks for itself.

[PhoenixAsh]

Ever heard of plot twists? How dull a story would it be if the plot was. Sephiroth is bad, you kill him.

The tank has again been discussed already, I'm not gonna argue it again, and even if Jenova got out herself it still shows shes the one in charge.

You only fight Sephiroth ONCE, and he is completely useless. Every single major plot fight involves Jenova or Shinra. The whole point of the first disc and a half is Jenova getting back together.

[Rude]

And to add on to what Phoenix just said, the only reason that the plot seems to be focused on Sephiroth is that the point of view is pretty much only seen through the eyes of Cloud and his party. Cloud is so blindly chasing Sephiroth that he and the rest of the party kind of overlook everything going on around them. So unless the player of the game is looking to read inbetween the lines of the story and play close attention to detail, it will easily seem that it is nothing but a chase for Sephiroth.

[Raistlin]

Psychotic: Sephiroth didn't die 5 years ago. He traveled through the underground mako streams to the North Crater. What you're saying is pure speculation.

Phoenix: Jenova letting herself out only needs on assumption. Hell, even Hojo letting Jenova out only needs one assumption. Some random MP letting Jenova out only needs one assumption. However, Cloud letting Jenova out needs a whole host of assumptions.

Captain: Rude is right on the Jenova thing. The Sephiroth you chase(whether Jenova in disguise, a Sephiroth clone, or a Sephiroth manifestation) is subservient to Jenova throughout. Even in the Reactor Mission, when it's the real Sephiroth, he refers to Jenova as "mother" and that he must "free his mother." How could he be in control?

[PhoenixAsh]

Damn I was determined not to argue this again this thread.
Hojo letting Jenova out requires one ridiculous assumption and one normal assumption. A random MP letting her out requires three assumptions. Jenova letting herself out requires one big assumption and one normal assumption. Cloud letting Jenova out requires one assumption.
That's off the top of my head, I really don't wann start repeating myself after that arguement had died down.

[Storm]

Okay, for the last time I am going to summarize the different ways Jenova was released from the Shinra building, and explain which seems the most logical.

(1) A successful Sephiroth Clone or a manifestation of Sephiroth released Jenova. This seems to be an okay explanation because Palmer says "he saw Sephiroth with his own eyes".
Flaws:
(a) There is no explanation given as to why this exact time was chosen for the clone to release Jenova. Also, why the heck would Shinra allow a successful Sephiroth clone to run free? Don't you think if Hojo created a successful clone, Shinra would use that clone to their advantage? And even if Jenova took control of this clone, there's never any mention of a clone that escaped. And I think something as big as that happening would not be able to remain behind closed doors.
(b) Why is Cloud's cell open? Someone suggested that Jenova/Sephiroth could be a valuable asset, so they released Cloud while killing all the other Shinra soldiers. Okay, so how did the Sephiroth clone know that cloud was in that cell? Is the clone psychic? Not only that, why wouldn't the Sephiroth clone kill the other party members in the other cells, or at least kill Tifa? Jenova has no mind control over them, so why would she need them alive? She doesn't, which means that neither Jenova or the Sephiroth clone opened Cloud's cell. Also, the explanation that Cloud's cell was simply opened to advance the plot or so we wouldn't die of boredom in a video game is a weak and unacceptable answer. You could answer many questions in Final Fantasy VII with "cuz it's a video game and it doesn't have to make sense."

(2) Hojo released Jenova from the cell. The way in which the cell was opened pretty much answers this question, unless Hojo went on a spaz attack and trashed the door. I'm sure somebody would notice though.

(3) Jenova broke free from the cell. In my opinion, this is the second most probable. When Cloud looked into the cell, Jenova communicated to Cloud or something to that extent(the seizure Cloud has). Maybe this interaction between them brought Jenova back to a conscious level and thus escaped.
Flaw: Read (1)(b) above. Still no explanation as to why Cloud's cell was opened. Whether it be a Sephiroth Clone or Jenova, the other party members would have been killed.

(4) Cloud released Jenova from the cell, with Hojo releasing Cloud from the prison cell. Unlike the other theories, this one has no flaws. The pieces of the puzzle fit well for this theory. Jenova communicated with Cloud, commanding him to release her. Hojo unlocked Cloud's cell, curious to see whether or not Jenova still had control over Cloud. Cloud, not mentally stable and not in control of his actions, unconsiously uses his sword to slash open the tank and release Jenova, kills other soldier's in the process. Jenova takes on the form of Sephiroth, and murders President Shinra. Hojo leaves Shinra to avoid suspicion in an extremely messy(and debatable) matter.

Now, I await my opposition.........

[Raistlin]

How does Jenova letting herself out require more than one assumption? It only requires one: that she is able to get herself out.

Hojo requires one assumption: that he let Jenova out.

I admit an MP requires one other assumption, but that's it.

Cloud letting Jenova out requires:

1. That Cloud could get out of the cell himself.

2. That Cloud could open the tank Jenova has(the same extra assumption required for the MP).

3. That Jenova made Cloud forget(which she has never done before)

4. And that the camera doesn't follow Cloud everywhere(which is the most ridiculous of them all. The view only leaves Cloud when he can't move in Mideel).


EDIT:

No flaws, eh? No, just a whole freakin' host of assumptions.

[Storm]

Originally posted by Raistlin
No flaws, eh? No, just a whole freakin' host of assumptions.

Assumptions are better than flaws. Flaws immediately turn down a theory. As the great Sherlock Holmes once said,"When considering a problem, one must first eliminate all solutions which have flaws and can be proven incorrect. And thus, the remaining solution, as improbable as it seems, must be the correct answer."