two sephiroths

[Raistlin]

No...because it's him. Sephiroth would assume the form of Sephiroth because (say it with me) it's him. That is who he is. There is logic to Sephiroth taking on this form, there is no real logic to Jenova taking on the same form.

How could Sephiroth take on his own form when he's frozen in mako?

Oh please, whatever true power Jenova had is lost all throughout the game until the reunion, and even then Sephiroth is the more powerful of the two. What did she do during the Cetra ages? Shapeshifted and spread a virus? Big whoop, clearly she's "one of the most powerful beings ever".

Where does it even remotely suggest that? That is pure assumption. How can you take away such a being's power? Her cells still work...

Well, that can be explained in two ways:
1 - Basic defense instinct

2 - Sephiroth still controls the pieces after dropping them.

Sephiroth controls NOTHING. He believes Jenova is his mother, he obeys her. She controls him!

During FFVII? Sephiroth. We don't know how much Jenova cells were injected into Sephiroth, but it was likely a high concentration. Either that, or the extra boost came from being injected while in the womb. Now, no doubt Jenova has strength, since those who carry her cells "inherit" this. But what else? She can shapeshift (supporting the theory that we're following Jenova's body, whoever's controlling it). She can spread a virus that turns people into monsters. Ok, what else? ....god knows, that is all we know of Jenova's "power". Who's to say Sephiroth didn't directly "inherit" Jenova's strength, carrying her cells before birth? So he could be just as powerful as her.

Even if it was an extremely high concentration, there's an infintely higher concentration in Jenova herself. Sephiroth admits himself that Jenova is what he considers "all powerful." And, yes, I'll get you that quote, but I'm in school now and don't have the time.

They're "factual" in a sense, but they're not logical. The game is from Cloud's perspective, so we never get to find out anything about "Jenova's true power" and never even get a little hint that she's pulling the strings? It would be sloppy storytelling, very sloppy. FFVII isn't always perfect, but it never falls to those depths.

It's not sloppy. It's great story-telling. It actually makes you...how do you say it? Think. Jenova controlling Sephiroth is extremely logical, and supported by in-game facts. What you're saying is not both.

[JonJonB]

How could Sephiroth take on his own form when he's frozen in mako?

Using his repeatedly referenced "strong will".

Where does it even remotely suggest that? That is pure assumption. How can you take away such a being's power? Her cells still work...

But what does Jenova do? NOTHING. Until the reunion is complete and you fight Jenova Synthesis, who is easily dispatched.

Sephiroth controls NOTHING. He believes Jenova is his mother, he obeys her. She controls him!

Prove it. Give me just one line that says Jenova is controlling Sephiroth.

Even if it was an extremely high concentration, there's an infintely higher concentration in Jenova herself. Sephiroth admits himself that Jenova is what he considers "all powerful." And, yes, I'll get you that quote, but I'm in school now and don't have the time.

Well, I'm not sure. As we grow from children, our body produces more blood to compensate for the extra space. He do we know Sephiroth's body hasn't been producing Jenova blood since birth? His concentration could be the same for all we know, but I DO know that I recall no line where Sephiroth calls Jenova "all powerful". I'd like to see that before I even think of countering it.

It's not sloppy. It's great story-telling. It actually makes you...how do you say it? Think. Jenova controlling Sephiroth is extremely logical, and supported by in-game facts. What you're saying is not both.

Great storytelling? By that standard I could say "Mr. Happy" is a great story. There's no evidence at all to suggest Mr. Happy is a pimp who runs a house of crack whores, but I believe it all the same. Great storytelling there, where I added my imagination to an existing story by someone else. You see my point?

I'm trying to support my theory with evidence that references to Sephiroth's powers and strong will, you're just saying Jenova is giving the orders, without anything to back it up.

I'll leave you with Hojo's exposition, which comes as the big revelation and is never disputed following that scene. It's pure game fact, with no contest:

Hojo
"You see, even if Jenova's body is dismembered, it will
eventually become one again. That's what is meant by Jenova's Reunion."


Hojo
"I have been waiting for the Reunion to start. Five years have
passed, and now the Clones have begun to return."


Hojo
"I thought the clones would begin to gather at Midgar where
Jenova is stored."
"But my predictions were not entirely correct. Jenova itself
began to move away from the Shinra Building."


Hojo
"But being a genius that I am, I soon figured it out. You see it
was all Sephiroth's doing."
"Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the
Lifestream; he wants to maniplate the Clones himself."

[Raistlin]

Using his repeatedly referenced "strong will".

Strong will? He submitted to Jenova.

But what does Jenova do? NOTHING. Until the reunion is complete and you fight Jenova Synthesis, who is easily dispatched.

There's one theory that Jenova was the one running around in the first disk. This is a very factual theory, believable from solely one scene: the North Crater. Remember when you saw Sephiroth killing the clones? Jenova wanted the clones so she could get her cells back, why would Sephiroth kill them? This suggests that the Sephiroth you see is in fact Jenova taking back her cells, and you just see what she wants you to.
Also, Jenova anyway was telling Sephiroth what to do.

Prove it. Give me just one line that says Jenova is controlling Sephiroth.

1. In Nibelheim, Sephiroth was obsessed with freeing his "mother." And "mother calls me."
2. "Sephiroth: Cloud... Don't blame Tifa. The ability to change one's looks, voice,
and words, is the power of Jenova. Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's
memories, creating you."- Sephiroth

And others. Now, what evidence is there that Sephiroth controls Jenova? She's his mother! He freed her because she beckoned.

Well, I'm not sure. As we grow from children, our body produces more blood to compensate for the extra space. He do we know Sephiroth's body hasn't been producing Jenova blood since birth? His concentration could be the same for all we know, but I DO know that I recall no line where Sephiroth calls Jenova "all powerful". I'd like to see that before I even think of countering it.

He doesn't call her all-powerful, I said basically. He did suggests that she had the ability to manipulate everybodys' minds, which also basically constitutes my belief of "all-powerful."
Also, suggesting that Sephiroth has been producing Jenova cells is absurd. THAT is not even remotely suggested anywhere in the game, and is highly doubtful. Possible, of course, but very doubtful.


As to your last thing: see above to back-up. WHY would Sephiroth control Jenova? HOW would Sephiroth control Jenova? Those questions are unanswered and cannot be satisfactorily answered.

And, to your quote, Hojo just means that Sephiroth is taking direct control of the clones, and therefor the Reunion. I would like to know how exactly he'd know that, and(even if the quote was actually relevant, which it isn't) if it was true, since not everything said in the game was true(for example: that Cloud was created five years ago and had no history).

[JonJonB]

Strong will? He submitted to Jenova.

WHEN? WHERE? SHOW ME WHERE THIS IS EVER SAID. I'm sorry for the caps, but I can't seem to get it through to you that there is NO EVIDENCE of Jenova manipulating Sephiroth or him "submitting" to her.

There's one theory that Jenova was the one running around in the first disk. This is a very factual theory, believable from solely one scene: the North Crater. Remember when you saw Sephiroth killing the clones? Jenova wanted the clones so she could get her cells back, why would Sephiroth kill them? This suggests that the Sephiroth you see is in fact Jenova taking back her cells, and you just see what she wants you to.
Also, Jenova anyway was telling Sephiroth what to do.

Um, why wouldn't Sephiroth help Jenova in her reunion? He's still under the impression that she's his mother. And Jenova was telling Sephiroth what to do? Prove it. It's 100000x more likely that Sephiroth's entire plan was formulated from the knowledge he gained while travelling the lifestream.

1. In Nibelheim, Sephiroth was obsessed with freeing his "mother." And "mother calls me."
2. "Sephiroth: Cloud... Don't blame Tifa. The ability to change one's looks, voice,
and words, is the power of Jenova. Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's
memories, creating you."- Sephiroth

And others. Now, what evidence is there that Sephiroth controls Jenova? She's his mother! He freed her because she beckoned.

1. He did want to free Jenova. Maybe I'm simple, but this does not indicate in any way she's controlling him.
2. Again, this doesn't remotely suggest she's controlling Sephiroth.

Me theory doesn't involve Sephiroth controlling Jenova herself, just the conciousless blob that remains of her body. His plan was to manipulate the Clones and complete his mother's reunion, while also summoning Meteor. Taking control of the body was extremely beneficial to him. He could assume his own form, lure the clones and then at the end add the body to the reunion. Jenova's true self (i.e her head) was in the North Crater with Sephiroth the whole time

He doesn't call her all-powerful, I said basically. He did suggests that she had the ability to manipulate everybodys' minds, which also basically constitutes my belief of "all-powerful."
Also, suggesting that Sephiroth has been producing Jenova cells is absurd. THAT is not even remotely suggested anywhere in the game, and is highly doubtful. Possible, of course, but very doubtful.

I still want quotes to back up what words you're putting in Sephiroth's mouth. As for producing Jenova cells, well it's just a little something to explain why he's so much more powerful than the clones.

As to your last thing: see above to back-up. WHY would Sephiroth control Jenova? HOW would Sephiroth control Jenova? Those questions are unanswered and cannot be satisfactorily answered.

As I said, not Jenova herself, just the body. As for the "how" -- his strong will. He manipulated Cloud, a conscious being -- why not an inactive blob?

And, to your quote, Hojo just means that Sephiroth is taking direct control of the clones, and therefor the Reunion. I would like to know how exactly he'd know that, and(even if the quote was actually relevant, which it isn't) if it was true, since not everything said in the game was true(for example: that Cloud was created five years ago and had no history)

The quote is relevant, Hojo says "It was all Sephiroth's doing". Everything he mentioned, not just the clones. And I admit the thing about Cloud was untrue, but he do we know this? Because it's dealt with, disputed, refuted and disproven in the game. Hojo's exposition is not, therefore it's pure fact.

[PhoenixAsh]

Okay two things about Hojo. He's Sephiroth's dad. He's insane.
One thing though, what strong will? Sephiroth is insane! It's also a stupidly huge coincidence that the one person Hojo used for that experiment happened to be the one person with the insane amount of mental ability to control ancient super powerful aliens after being driven crazy,stabbed, then stuck in mako for a few years.
You haven't explained why Sephiroth would go to the extreme lengths of projecting his image, to manipulate the appearance of Jenova (an ability that solely belongs to Jenova and is never suggested to be passed on through cloning). He didn't want his face to demand respect, those that knew him he killed. Those that failed to recognise him, well failed to recognise him. Only Cloud and Co. really have frequent encounters (as far as we know).
The game, from beginning to end is about the reunion. This is solely to do with Jenova. Sephiroth just happens to have a lot of her cells.
I do have a theory as to why Jenova appears as Sephiroth, that extends the luring Cloud theory. However this theory requires a lot of theorising outside the game, and as there is no decent explanation from any side I'm not going to distract the topic by bringing it up.

[Big D]

Jenova was more or less dormant for virtually the entire time after the Cetra sealed her. Shinra scientists spent years experimenting with her, yet she did nothing. She was able to subtly communicate with Sephiroth because of the large amount of Jenova cells in him - there was something of a 'bond' there. So Sephiroth was acting under Jenova's 'orders', but she wasn't directly controlling his every move. Shegave him a few ideas, the rest was his doing. Jenova's headless carcass was lying dormant in the Shinra building. Sephiroth sent his will across the distance (the Clones are proof that he can do this) and either created a manifestation that freed her, or else he re-awakened the headless body and manipulated it himself. Note - I'm not saying that Sephiroth was in control of Jenova, or anything alse along those lines. Jenova was so badly mutilated, dismembered and spread around the world, that she couldn't do anything for herself until the Reunion. Sephiroth was implementing that Reunion. There is no reason why Jenova would assume Sephiroth's form. There are plenty of reasons why Sephiroth would do this. At the Northern Crater, we 'see' Sephiroth killing the Clones - possibly to release the Jenova cells confined within them... but perhaps to prevent a total Reunion from occurring? If Jenova completely reformed, Sephiroth would lose much of his strength and power.

Let's suppose, for a moment, that it is Jenova all along. We'll take a look at some key events in the game, and see how absurd they look under this reasoning.
* Jenova breaks out of the Shinra cell, and assumes Sephiroth's form in order to slip by unnoticed.
* Jenova convinces the Clones that they all worship Sephiroth and want to be with him.
* Jenova encounters Cloud and the others, pretends to be Sephiroth, and drops pieces of her own body to dispatch them instead of just killing them outright with all of her power.
* Jenova, in Sephiroth's form for no real reason, kills the Clones at the North Crater, them sits back as Cloud delivers the Black Materia to the real Sephiroth, who summons Meteor.
* Sephiroth begins to obtain the God-like power referenced in the Temple of the Ancients, while Jenova re-forms into the moderately volatile Synthesis form.

Doesn't make too much sense, does it?
especially the part about dropping pieces of Jenova's body to fight Cloud and co. The complete Jenova, under her own control, would've finished them easily. However, Sephiroth's projected will was having a tough enough job transporting the headless body, and couldn't risk the entire thing being killed, or breaking free under its own instict. He removed thse 'spores', which formed into the Birth, Life and Death entities. Sephiroth was 'clinging' to Jenova's body, and couldn't relinquish his grasp on it. He had to get his mother's body back to her head, so that she could become whole again.

[PhoenixAsh]

Err I think given there's enough of her to make three huge monsters then dropping pieces is just a slowing tactic either way. Jenova WANTED Cloud at the reunion.
Why would Sephiroth assume his own form. Jenova at least throws people off her scent, Sephiroth would just be letting people know he's alive even though the thing you follow uses stealthy techniques at many times during the course of the game. There are other reasons for Jenova to look like Seph too.
Sephiroth never begins to obtain the god-like powers, meteor never hits.
Sephiroth killing the clones makes no sense at all, why Jenova would do this has already been suggested, and to be honest is the only logical explanation I can think of.
I think the black materia did more than just summon meteor, maybe not directly, but Seph doesn't do anything for years before coming into contact with it.
Jenova didn't do anything till then because she was trapped with no way out. Not because she was weak, it took a hell of a lot to get her like that, but when the oportunity came, she got out and all hell broke loose.
I don't think the head is relevant. Given Jenova can communicate to all of her body parts nomatter how far away they are I just take her to be a single entity in different places.

[JonJonB]

Okay two things about Hojo. He's Sephiroth's dad. He's insane.

Insane? Because he's evil and helps Sephiroth? Gimme a break.

One thing though, what strong will? Sephiroth is insane! It's also a stupidly huge coincidence that the one person Hojo used for that experiment happened to be the one person with the insane amount of mental ability to control ancient super powerful aliens after being driven crazy,stabbed, then stuck in mako for a few years.

"What strong will"? I can't believe you're asking that. Go play through the game again, his strong will is referenced many times. And what the hell are you babbling on about regarding a coincidence? You seem to have a skill for writing up a bunch of stuff, but not actually making a point with any of it.

You haven't explained why Sephiroth would go to the extreme lengths of projecting his image, to manipulate the appearance of Jenova (an ability that solely belongs to Jenova and is never suggested to be passed on through cloning). He didn't want his face to demand respect, those that knew him he killed. Those that failed to recognise him, well failed to recognise him. Only Cloud and Co. really have frequent encounters (as far as we know).

I never said Sephiroth projected his image, and I have no problems believing Sephiroth has the power to change the shape of an inanimate blob of Jenova. And you seem to be under the impression that Sephiroth would want to travel stealthily by default....why? What reason has Sephiroth to hide who he is? Why shouldn't he assume his own form?

The game, from beginning to end is about the reunion. This is solely to do with Jenova. Sephiroth just happens to have a lot of her cells.

Yeah, you're absolutely right, of course -- the game focuses on Sephiroth's actions and ends following the ultimate defeat of him -- but clearly it's all about Jenova and her reunion. :rolleyes2

Err I think given there's enough of her to make three huge monsters then dropping pieces is just a slowing tactic either way. Jenova WANTED Cloud at the reunion.

Prove it. Jenova never expresses wanting of any kind (she has one line in the game).

Why would Sephiroth assume his own form. Jenova at least throws people off her scent, Sephiroth would just be letting people know he's alive even though the thing you follow uses stealthy techniques at many times

As I said, Sephiroth has no reason for stealth. He's aiding his mother's reunion, and (more importantly) he's making sure the Black Materia makes it to him in the North Crater.

There are other reasons for Jenova to look like Seph too

It's not good just saying that and leaving it there. Please, give us your reasons (but try to leave out "luring Cloud" - we've been there and there's nothing to back it up).

Sephiroth killing the clones makes no sense at all, why Jenova would do this has already been suggested, and to be honest is the only logical explanation I can think of.

The most logical reason for Jenova to kill them would be to send them down into the Planet's heart, where her head awaits and the Reunion actually takes place. Why would Sephiroth's motives for killing them be any different? Why shouldn't he want to help his mother's reunion at the same time he's getting the Black Materia?

I think the black materia did more than just summon meteor, maybe not directly, but Seph doesn't do anything for years before coming into contact with it.

Because for five years he's gaining The Knowledge of the Cetra, and those who came after them, as well as regenerating.

I don't think the head is relevant. Given Jenova can communicate to all of her body parts nomatter how far away they are I just take her to be a single entity in different places.

Jenova can communicate to all of her body parts? Where is this ever said in the game? Wait, it's not. Please, don't state things like this as fact -_-

[Raistlin]

First off, JJ, you're need to reply the flashback. Sephiroth's in practically in a daze going to free Jenova. "I must free mother..." He's obsessed with it. Also, explain this: Sephiroth went from finding out Jenova was his mother, to believeing her an Ancient and everyone else "traitors to the Cetra." How? Jenova's whisperings.

WHEN? WHERE? SHOW ME WHERE THIS IS EVER SAID. I'm sorry for the caps, but I can't seem to get it through to you that there is NO EVIDENCE of Jenova manipulating Sephiroth or him "submitting" to her.

There's tons. You just need to actually listen for it and remember certain scenes accurately.

Um, why wouldn't Sephiroth help Jenova in her reunion? He's still under the impression that she's his mother. And Jenova was telling Sephiroth what to do? Prove it. It's 100000x more likely that Sephiroth's entire plan was formulated from the knowledge he gained while travelling the lifestream.

Sephiroth would help, but how does killing the clones help? And give me ONE in-game fact which shows it's possible for Sephiroth to gain knowledge while frozen in mako.

As I said, not Jenova herself, just the body. As for the "how" -- his strong will. He manipulated Cloud, a conscious being -- why not an inactive blob?

Since all of Jenova'a parts can act on their own(hence all the battles) how would he control her body? And why wouldn't Jenova control her own body?

The quote is relevant, Hojo says "It was all Sephiroth's doing". Everything he mentioned, not just the clones. And I admit the thing about Cloud was untrue, but he do we know this? Because it's dealt with, disputed, refuted and disproven in the game. Hojo's exposition is not, therefore it's pure fact.

You need to take things in context, and not just put your own assumption in. Replay the scene. Hojo's talking solely about the Reunion. Hojo was talking about the Reunion and the clones before, and said it was all Sephiroth's doing. And why does what Hojo say have to be pure fact? Half the things Cloud and Hojo and Sephiroth say aren't true.

As I said, not Jenova herself, just the body. As for the "how" -- his strong will. He manipulated Cloud, a conscious being -- why not an inactive blob?

As someone mentioned: he does NOT have a strong will. He's INSANE, comepletely loco.

Insane? Because he's evil and helps Sephiroth? Gimme a break.

Hojo is a complete wack-job and a megalomaniac to boot. If you haven't gotten that out of FF7 you shouldn't be in this forum.

"What strong will"? I can't believe you're asking that. Go play through the game again, his strong will is referenced many times. And what the hell are you babbling on about regarding a coincidence? You seem to have a skill for writing up a bunch of stuff, but not actually making a point with any of it.

Mentioned many times? Give me a quote. Only Jenova's mind powers are mentioned.

I never said Sephiroth projected his image, and I have no problems believing Sephiroth has the power to change the shape of an inanimate blob of Jenova. And you seem to be under the impression that Sephiroth would want to travel stealthily by default....why? What reason has Sephiroth to hide who he is? Why shouldn't he assume his own form?

He moved steathily throughout Disc 1. He didn't shout out, "Hey, it's me, Sephiroth!"

Yeah, you're absolutely right, of course -- the game focuses on Sephiroth's actions and ends following the ultimate defeat of him -- but clearly it's all about Jenova and her reunion.

I wouldn't go far as to say that the game is about the Reunion, but the game definately starts out with Jenova, and continues because of Jenova. It appears by an amatuer's eye to be solely about Sephiroth, but if you play the game a lot you'll realize it's because the game is told in an almost entirely exclusive first-person from Cloud's perspective. Read first-person books; you're not given all the information.

Prove it. Jenova never expresses wanting of any kind (she has one line in the game).

Well, since the Reunion was solely because of Jenova, and Cloud was being lured there(said by Sephiroth), it's most likely because Jenova wants him there.

It's not good just saying that and leaving it there. Please, give us your reasons (but try to leave out "luring Cloud" - we've been there and there's nothing to back it up).

1. To manipulate Cloud
2. To be less conspicuous
3. To fool other people(Shinra, for example)

The most logical reason for Jenova to kill them would be to send them down into the Planet's heart, where her head awaits and the Reunion actually takes place. Why would Sephiroth's motives for killing them be any different? Why shouldn't he want to help his mother's reunion at the same time he's getting the Black Materia?

Her head awaits in the heart of the Planet? That is pure assumption. That's to the affect of "making it all up." It's not even remotely suggested at all. That Sephiroth is actually Jenova taking her cells back, according to Kawaii RyuKishi, and you see(through Cloud) only what she wants you to see.

Because for five years he's gaining The Knowledge of the Cetra, and those who came after them, as well as regenerating.

He's gaining knowledge? Prove it.

Jenova can communicate to all of her body parts? Where is this ever said in the game? Wait, it's not. Please, don't state things like this as fact -_-

Now you're being a hypocrite. Don't accuse others of doing something if you yourself are. And Sephiroth can talk to Cloud because of his Jenova cells. Jenova can talk to Sephiroth through the Jenova cells. Wouldn't that suggest that Jenova could communicate with all her cells? Use your head!

[JonJonB]

First off, JJ, you're need to reply the flashback. Sephiroth's in practically in a daze going to free Jenova. "I must free mother..." He's obsessed with it. Also, explain this: Sephiroth went from finding out Jenova was his mother, to believeing her an Ancient and everyone else "traitors to the Cetra." How? Jenova's whisperings.

I've played through the flashback many times, and for your benefit I even went through a script of it. The best Sephiroth shows is "Out of my way. I'm going to see my mother". He's never in any daze hearing Jenova call out to him.

There's tons. You just need to actually listen for it and remember certain scenes accurately.

That doesn't cut it. Show me proof, actual lines from the game that aren't later disputed.

Sephiroth would help, but how does killing the clones help? And give me ONE in-game fact which shows it's possible for Sephiroth to gain knowledge while frozen in mako.

I've already said how killing the clones helps. I'll expand on this (and the knowledge issue) in a moment.

Since all of Jenova'a parts can act on their own(hence all the battles) how would he control her body? And why wouldn't Jenova control her own body?

Maybe the Jenova parts didn't act on their own. Maybe Sephiroth was still controlling them when they fought AVALANCHE. And there's never any mention of Jenova's powerful will, as opposed to Sephiroth's which is certainly mentioned. Maybe she can't control the body from the North Crater.

You need to take things in context, and not just put your own assumption in. Replay the scene. Hojo's talking solely about the Reunion. Hojo was talking about the Reunion and the clones before, and said it was all Sephiroth's doing. And why does what Hojo say have to be pure fact? Half the things Cloud and Hojo and Sephiroth say aren't true.

I stick with what I said. Why say "It was all Sephiroth's doing" if he's only referring to part of what he mentioned. It makes no sense. And as for why it's fact -- it is clearly the "big revelation" scene, and is never later disputed. Nobody ever corrects Hojo's claims later on, it is pure fact.

As someone mentioned: he does NOT have a strong will. He's INSANE, comepletely loco.

Again with "Insane". Evil does not equal insane. Anyway, he does have a strong will, and I'll back this up soon.

Hojo is a complete wack-job and a megalomaniac to boot. If you haven't gotten that out of FF7 you shouldn't be in this forum.

He's evil, but like I said, I don't equate insanity with evil.

Mentioned many times? Give me a quote. Only Jenova's mind powers are mentioned.

Hah, ok, let's deal with this for a moment. Here are two quotes that immediately come to mind. I'll try to find more later:

Cloud
"He's here. the real Sephiroth is just beyond here."
"It's both incredibly wicked and cruel..."
"But it's releasing a powerfully strong will from deep within
this planet's wound."

Cloud
"The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will, and my
own weaknesses are what created me."

I've showed you mine. Now you show me yours.

He moved steathily throughout Disc 1. He didn't shout out, "Hey, it's me, Sephiroth!"

That's not stealth, that's "Not being a loud ass". Unless he was actively hiding, he wasn't being stealthy. And considering how many people knew Sephiroth was about, I'm pretty sure he wasn't hiding,

I wouldn't go far as to say that the game is about the Reunion, but the game definately starts out with Jenova, and continues because of Jenova. It appears by an amatuer's eye to be solely about Sephiroth, but if you play the game a lot you'll realize it's because the game is told in an almost entirely exclusive first-person from Cloud's perspective. Read first-person books; you're not given all the information.

Read through FFVII again: show me the proof it's about Jenova. She hardly even gets any mention after disc 1, but I suppose you'll say that was all part of the writers' master plan

Well, since the Reunion was solely because of Jenova, and Cloud was being lured there(said by Sephiroth), it's most likely because Jenova wants him there.

Cloud's task was also to deliver the Black Materia. I'd say Sephiroth wanted him there more, y'know for the whole BEING STABBED BY CLOUD AND ALMOST KILLED thing. The brainfeck (I can't believe that word is censored) was nice revenge IMO.

1. To manipulate Cloud
2. To be less conspicuous
3. To fool other people(Shinra, for example)

1: There's never any reason given why jenova would want to manipulate Cloud. I know you'll throw that "but she WANTED him at the reunion" - but you'll have to prove it first.
2: Sephiroth is probably gonna be a lot more conspicuous than some blob monster.
3: Why?

Her head awaits in the heart of the Planet? That is pure assumption. That's to the affect of "making it all up." It's not even remotely suggested at all. That Sephiroth is actually Jenova taking her cells back, according to Kawaii RyuKishi, and you see(through Cloud) only what she wants you to see.

Well, couple the fact that Jenova is never ever seen (her head I mean) until we get to the heart of the planet, I think that's where she's been after taking a dip in the lifestream.

He's gaining knowledge? Prove it.

k.

Sephiroth
"I'm far superior to the Ancients."
"I became a traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge
and wisdom of the Ancients."
"I also gained the knowledge and wisdom of those after the
extinction of the Ancients."
"And soon, I will create the future."

Now you're being a hypocrite. Don't accuse others of doing something if you yourself are. And Sephiroth can talk to Cloud because of his Jenova cells. Jenova can talk to Sephiroth through the Jenova cells. Wouldn't that suggest that Jenova could communicate with all her cells? Use your head!

Ah but you're assuming Sephiroth can talk to Cloud because of his cells -- I say, where's the proof? I believe he does all his manipulation with his strong will.

[Calvin]

Alright, first time caller, long time listener. Haha

Anyway, one thing that I'm very curious about is the debate between the strength of Sephiroth and Jenova. How are we to know if Jenova is stronger? She's obviously stronger than the majority of the human race on the planet, but not the Cetra. They encased her in a geological stratum for 2 millenia. Also, if Jenova is as powerful as some say she is, why are Cloud and everyone else able to defeat parts of her? Even though they're only fighting an arm or a leg or whatever, you'd think that Jenova would kick the party's ass.

And what about Sephiroth? He spent 5 years swimming in the collective consious that is the planet. I'm sure that he has gained more than just knowledge from that experience. Yes he was injected with Jenova cells, but he was also IN the Lifestream. Perhaps in that time he was able to render "super-human" abilities like physical projections. I'm not trying to cut anyone down or their arguments, but I've read the entire thread, and this part of the story seems to be skipped over again and again. Of course, my theory has as much basis as the next guy.....and maybe I'm putting too much hope in the strength of the Lifesteam. However, what prevented Meteor when Holy failed? Of course, if Sephiroth did gain all this power from the Lifestream, then why didn't Jenova aquire these abilities as well? I don't know. Maybe someone else can support or refute it.

And one last thing, I believe that the final battle with Sephiroth (his final form) is not actually Sephiroth himself, but the remnants of him in Cloud's mind. I think the battle represents Cloud getting rid of the last trace of Sephiroth from his mind (as well as the Jenova cells). All of his life, Cloud was a failure and was tortured by this major flaw. He wanted to be just like Sephiroth, so he tried to join SOLDIER. After failing yet again, and being injected with Jenova cells, he eventually had a mental breakdown (i.e. North Crater and falling into Lifestream). When Cloud killed Sephiroth in that all-too-easy final battle, it represented his most important victory.....over the Jenova cells, over Sephiroth, and most importantly over himself.

[Raistlin]

First off, Calvin: Jenova was only encased by the ENTIRE race of the Cetra, thousands of them. And she killed off almost all of them in the process.

And what about Sephiroth? He spent 5 years swimming in the collective consious that is the planet. I'm sure that he has gained more than just knowledge from that experience.

Cloud spent who-knows-how-long in there as well, and didn't gain any of it. Plus, if it was that easy, why wouldn't he, and many others, have jumped in the mako themselves? Mako is NOT Lifestream.

I've played through the flashback many times, and for your benefit I even went through a script of it. The best Sephiroth shows is "Out of my way. I'm going to see my mother". He's never in any daze hearing Jenova call out to him.

Why would he do that if Jenova wasn't calling for him? And you still haven't said how he went from "I must free mother" to "I must kill you all; you're traitors to the Cetra!"

I stick with what I said. Why say "It was all Sephiroth's doing" if he's only referring to part of what he mentioned. It makes no sense. And as for why it's fact -- it is clearly the "big revelation" scene, and is never later disputed. Nobody ever corrects Hojo's claims later on, it is pure fact.

Again, pure assumption. THINK. He's TALKING about the Reunion, he ONLY knows about the Reunion.

Again with "Insane". Evil does not equal insane. Anyway, he does have a strong will, and I'll back this up soon.

It's stated in the game by Cloud that Sephiroth went insane in Nibelheim. Since it was not refutted later in the game, by your reasoning, it must be pure fact.

Maybe the Jenova parts didn't act on their own. Maybe Sephiroth was still controlling them when they fought AVALANCHE.

And why would he control his mother?

I've showed you mine. Now you show me yours.

That "power of Jenova" quote I stated before. Jenova has the power to manipulate ALL minds, including Sephiroth and Cloud's.

That's not stealth, that's "Not being a loud ass". Unless he was actively hiding, he wasn't being stealthy. And considering how many people knew Sephiroth was about, I'm pretty sure he wasn't hiding,

Then how come NOBODY recognized him? Only the executive Shinra guys an AVALANCHE knew he was even moving around.

Read through FFVII again: show me the proof it's about Jenova. She hardly even gets any mention after disc 1, but I suppose you'll say that was all part of the writers' master plan

There wouldn't be an FF7 without Jenova. Sephiroth could have been substituted with anyone with Jenova cells; his connection with Cloud just made the story more endearing. Jenova and her cells is the story.

Cloud's task was also to deliver the Black Materia. I'd say Sephiroth wanted him there more, y'know for the whole BEING STABBED BY CLOUD AND ALMOST KILLED thing. The brainfeck (I can't believe that word is censored) was nice revenge IMO.

If Sephiroth wanted revenge, why didn't he kill Cloud? He certainly had the chance.

1: There's never any reason given why jenova would want to manipulate Cloud. I know you'll throw that "but she WANTED him at the reunion" - but you'll have to prove it first.
2: Sephiroth is probably gonna be a lot more conspicuous than some blob monster.
3: Why?

1. To deliver the Black Materia, as you have mentioned. Whether you believe it was by Jenova's design or not, Sephiroth wanted the Black Materia at the Reunion.
2. Then why didn't anyone notice him in Disc 1, huh? Because he was being stealthy. A human being can be stealthy, a gigantic monster cannot.
3. Well, Sephiroth was a well-respected SOLDIER and a great Shinra general. Can't you see how she could use that to her advantage?

Ah but you're assuming Sephiroth can talk to Cloud because of his cells -- I say, where's the proof? I believe he does all his manipulation with his strong will.

If Sephiroth could manipulate anybody because of his strong will(why does he have a strong will? He's human, except for Jenova cells. Whatever powers you grant Sephiroth you must grant Jenova in greater power), which he doesn't really have 'cause he's insane, then how come Sephiroth didn't just control everybody? Why didn't he overtake AVALANCHE? Why was Cloud the ONLY person in the group he controlled?

Lastly, concerning your quote, if gaining the power of gathered Lifestream was his sole concern, then why didn't he just stay down there and gather?

[JonJonB]

First off, Calvin: Jenova was only encased by the ENTIRE race of the Cetra, thousands of them. And she killed off almost all of them in the process.

"A small number of the surviving Cetra" actually. I shouldn't think thousands of them could only trap her, when AVALANCHE easily ruined her trout.

Cloud spent who-knows-how-long in there as well, and didn't gain any of it. Plus, if it was that easy, why wouldn't he, and many others, have jumped in the mako themselves? Mako is NOT Lifestream.

You're right, it's not, but Sephiroth did get into the Lifestream, and gained a whole heap of knowledge and power. Also, when Cloud spent a little time in the Lifestream, there is mention of something along the same lines...

"I'll say it again, he's got Mako poisoning. I've never seen a
case this bad..."
"An immense amount of Mako-drenched knowledge was put into his
brain all at once......"

Why would he do that if Jenova wasn't calling for him? And you still haven't said how he went from "I must free mother" to "I must kill you all; you're traitors to the Cetra!"

Why would he do it? Because he was under the impression that Jenova was an Ancient, and his mother. I'd want to see her if I'd come across a revelation like that. And he resented the humans because of everything he read in the Library concerning them turning their backs on the Cetra (his race, or so he believed).

Again, pure assumption. THINK. He's TALKING about the Reunion, he ONLY knows about the Reunion.

If I'm making an assumption, then so are you. Neither of us can prove what Hojo meant.

It's stated in the game by Cloud that Sephiroth went insane in Nibelheim. Since it was not refutted later in the game, by your reasoning, it must be pure fact.

I'll give you that, but it's the same clichéd reasoning that someone who's evil is insane.

And why would he control his mother?

Oh leave it out, I've already said -- he's not controlling his mother, he's controlling the near-lifeless blob that used to be her body.

That "power of Jenova" quote I stated before. Jenova has the power to manipulate ALL minds, including Sephiroth and Cloud's.

The power of Jenova quote concerns her shapeshifting abilities, not her manipulation abilities -- I'll grant you that her shapeshifting is how she manipulates, but we're talking about directly controlling a person's actions. Give me a quote that says Jenova can do this.

Then how come NOBODY recognized him? Only the executive Shinra guys an AVALANCHE knew he was even moving around.

Uh huh, and they all saw him - doesn't that mean he's not being very stealthy?

There wouldn't be an FF7 without Jenova. Sephiroth could have been substituted with anyone with Jenova cells; his connection with Cloud just made the story more endearing. Jenova and her cells is the story.

Anyone with Jenova cells? So the entire ranks of SOLDIER had the potential to be the main villain? They could all manipulate Cloud into fetching and delivering the Black Materia? No. Sephiroth is a key component as much as Jenova, moreso since the entire "oh we must kill the villain~!" focus is on him, and never Jenova.

If Sephiroth wanted revenge, why didn't he kill Cloud? He certainly had the chance.

Maybe taking Cloud's mind apart piece by piece was more fun? You tell me why he spun the bulltrout story of Cloud's "construction".

1. To deliver the Black Materia, as you have mentioned. Whether you believe it was by Jenova's design or not, Sephiroth wanted the Black Materia at the Reunion.
2. Then why didn't anyone notice him in Disc 1, huh? Because he was being stealthy. A human being can be stealthy, a gigantic monster cannot.
3. Well, Sephiroth was a well-respected SOLDIER and a great Shinra general. Can't you see how she could use that to her advantage?

1: So now Jenova's working for Sephiroth?
2: Nobody noticed him? And you're telling me to replay the game?
3: Not since he was also a well respected DEAD SOLDIER.

If Sephiroth could manipulate anybody because of his strong will(why does he have a strong will? He's human, except for Jenova cells. Whatever powers you grant Sephiroth you must grant Jenova in greater power), which he doesn't really have 'cause he's insane, then how come Sephiroth didn't just control everybody? Why didn't he overtake AVALANCHE? Why was Cloud the ONLY person in the group he controlled?

1: Have you considered the powers of his strong will (which he DOES have for god's sake, I proved it already) came from his stay in the Lifestream?
2: I don't grant Jenova anything that Sephiroth gained in the lifestream. He became a hundred times more formidable after that event (as evident from the fact that Jenova is the FIRST and WEAKEST in the series of final enemies -- not counting the one inside Cloud's mind, since...it was in his mind)
3: When you use manipulate materia, how many enemies can you control at once?

Lastly, concerning your quote, if gaining the power of gathered Lifestream was his sole concern, then why didn't he just stay down there and gather?

Because he wanted more -- as much as was possible. That's what the Meteor plan was all about.

[PhoenixAsh]

Okay partly because I'm sick of long posts, and partly because I never learnt how to do them properly, I'm just gonna answer without quotes.

The quote 'proving' Sephiroth's strong will seems way out of context, without more explanation I'd even be tempted to say it was a mistake in the game. Zack's strong will created Cloud, Sephiroth's contribution was his reputation, and his little hometown burning and killing spree.
The game is about Jenova's reunion. It's human hero and 'villain' are both the way they are due largely to Jenova. Everything you see until Cloud goes crazy is about the reunion, the cloaked people, heading to the northern crater etc. etc. The final bosses are Jenova SYNTHESIS, then Sephiroth after joining with Jenova. If you want to claim Sephiroth actually developes the ability to turn into a giant monster, and grow wings without Jenova then well.....
Sephiroth isn't stealthy? Well given very few people recognise one of the few celebrities in the world, I'd say he was. Also when you actually first meet Sephiroth (haven't played in a while), was he in a floor?
Again I haven't played in a while, but is anyone with any real amount of dialogue near Hojo when he says it was all Sephiroth?
Hojo injects Jenova into his body to give himself time to blow himself up so that the world can be destroyed...that's pretty crazy in my book.
If Sephiroth got into the lifestream, so did Jenova, I don't see the point.
The lifeless blob is not only held in a thick metal tank, sealed by Shinra. It can also be diced up and still fight.
It did take most of the Cetra to take down Jenova as far as I know, and unless you hadn't noticed, by the time you fight the full Jenova, when she actually wants you dead, not only do you have some of her strength, your party is also unrealisticly strong.
The only people ever controlled in the game have Jenova cells in them, why if it's based on strong will (despite insanity), can't other people be controlled.
Cloud has both had Jenova in him, and travelled the lifestream, yet amazingly he doesn't even hint at being able to read tea leaves. Sephiroth, although admittedly more exposed developes global ESP, the ability to control super powerful ancient aliens a tiny fraction of which is the reason for his strength, and apparently the ability to mutate and grow wings.

[Calvin]

Originally posted by Phoenix 17
Cloud has both had Jenova in him, and travelled the lifestream, yet amazingly he doesn't even hint at being able to read tea leaves. Sephiroth, although admittedly more exposed developes global ESP, the ability to control super powerful ancient aliens a tiny fraction of which is the reason for his strength, and apparently the ability to mutate and grow wings.

But wasn't it explained in the game that Cloud became who he is because of his weak state of mind? Something along the lines of those who are infused with the cells of Jenova become stronger. And people in a weak state get lost in the process. This could explain why Cloud did not gain any special abilities or knowledge (besides regaining his sanity) when he fell into the Lifestream.

However, I can definitely see both sides of the argument. Sephiroth could have become enourmously strong while floating in the Lifestream, or Sephiroth could have gone through the same experience that Cloud went through. And since he had Jenova, she would have most likely poisoned his mind beyond repair. There doesn't seem to be very much, if any, proof to back up either claim. But it still is interesting to talk about it.