I know I'm not a moderator, but go easy on the personal attacks. You guys are having a great debate that is insanely fun and interesting to read. Please don't ruin it with slanderous statements.
I know I'm not a moderator, but go easy on the personal attacks. You guys are having a great debate that is insanely fun and interesting to read. Please don't ruin it with slanderous statements.
This is a genuine question, what slander? We are using the word you because very few people are adding at the moment, but that's it as far as I can see...
I say what I think. If you disagree, then that is up to you.
I see...I was merely pointing out the problem of trying to explain something that the designers at Square probably couldn't even really answer...
Hojo injected Jenova cells into his unborn baby. He wanted to use wounded soldiers for experiments in making Sephiroth clones. He thinks putting a girl in a containment with a ferocious looking(at first glance) lion-like creature(Red XII) will save both species. Not insane, I agree... (sarcasm)Insane? Because he's evil and helps Sephiroth? Gimme a break.
JonJonB
Please Sephiroth can have psychic abilities because of a strong will... You also said his strong will allowed him to "control" Jenova's abilities. Can I have evidence how a strong will can allow you to do so much?
I agree.Well although the powers you listed already heavily outweigh any that Sephiroth can reasonably claim to, the fact that people with her cells get drawn across the globe SOLELY to return her to full strength seems pretty concrete that she has powers that the game does not specifically list
Remember JonJonB, there is proof that indirectly explains things. You seem to be more focused on the direct proof that is seen from your eyes.
Huh. I find myself quoting Issa again when I say it is such throwaway assumptions that make the Jenova theory stink. And besides, Sephiroth outshines Jenova by far from what we see in the game. Super Strength? He's got that covered. Shape-changing? Yup. Stupid old virus? Ok, granted, he doesn't show signs of this (not that I would credit Jenova as the most powerful being alive because of a disease) -- but direct manipulation more than makes up for that, something which is never credited to Jenova.Well although the powers you listed already heavily outweigh any that Sephiroth can reasonably claim to, the fact that people with her cells get drawn across the globe SOLELY to return her to full strength seems pretty concrete that she has powers that the game does not specifically list.
But you're talking about facts (and I use that term loosely) that are never ever mentioned in the game. It is absurd to say you know a truth contrary to everything we learn in the game, just because you're the player.Well given the player sees everything that the people who know the most in the game do, and is probably not insane, or thinking about avenging themselves or their loved ones at the time, then yes I would say they know the most.
Isn't that my point? He's not a puppet villain at all, and thus deserves no justice.Where's Sephiroth's justice? He didn't even know Hojo was killed, not that that makes up for what he went through.
I don't have to find evidence that she's NOT in control, I have the entire game's script backing me up -- the heroes are always running around shouting "Sephiroth!". You have a theory that goes against all of it -- it's your responsibility to provide REAL evidence that Jenova is the true villain of the piece (not stuff like "oh it's pretty concrete to ASSUME this and that..."). Not once in this thread have you done this, and never shall you because there is no evidence to even remotely suggest it.It never says Jenova is in control directly, nor does it say she isn't.
If that's your stance on what you will believe or accept as possible I would think about avoiding the following proffessions:
Law, teaching, police work, social services, research, sciences in general, medicine, anything involving working with people, business...
Please, stop the back and forth and just provide the evidence I ask for, or admit you cannot.
Your evidences are seen only from one perspective.
The evidences given by every post I have read seem reasonable enough, as I agree with most of them.Please, stop the back and forth and just provide the evidence I ask for, or admit you cannot.
JJB are you really trying to say that Sephiroth's life was just and that he was in total control of his actions. If he wasn't directly controlled by Jenova, then the blame for his actions lies solely with Hojo. Sephiroth's entire life was taken away from him, he became nothing more than a tool, IF he managed to break away from that, all that was left was a psychopath. There is no justice missing from this game, life simply isn't fair.
"Well although the powers you listed already heavily outweigh any that Sephiroth can reasonably claim to, the fact that people with her cells get drawn across the globe SOLELY to return her to full strength seems pretty concrete that she has powers that the game does not specifically list."
From that paragraph can you tell me which exact part is an assumption.
Sephiroth hasn't got super-strength, he has remarkable strength. Knowone even really questioned his abilities before Nibelheim so he was hardly inhumanly strong.
Sephiroth's shape changing abilities are questionable at best.
ONLY Jenova infected people are controlled, just how much evidence do you want?
Up until disc two everyone believes they are chasing Sephiroth, this is then only vaguely said not to be true once. It is left up to the gamer to realise what actually happened, things don't have to be said for them to be true.
ThE dArK oNe quote:
"JonJonB
Please Sephiroth can have psychic abilities because of a strong will... You also said his strong will allowed him to "control" Jenova's abilities. Can I have evidence how a strong will can allow you to do so much?"
Yeah I've been waiting for that too.
I say what I think. If you disagree, then that is up to you.
Oh horsetrout. Sephiroth made a conscious decision to murder people and burn down Nibelheim completely. Nobody but Sephiroth can be blamed for whatever evil deeds he committed.JJB are you really trying to say that Sephiroth's life was just and that he was in total control of his actions. If he wasn't directly controlled by Jenova, then the blame for his actions lies solely with Hojo. Sephiroth's entire life was taken away from him, he became nothing more than a tool, IF he managed to break away from that, all that was left was a psychopath. There is no justice missing from this game, life simply isn't fair.
The part where Jenova's reunion makes it "pretty concrete" she has other powers. There's nothing at all to suggest the reunion is no more than a simple natural process. Try again."Well although the powers you listed already heavily outweigh any that Sephiroth can reasonably claim to, the fact that people with her cells get drawn across the globe SOLELY to return her to full strength seems pretty concrete that she has powers that the game does not specifically list."
From that paragraph can you tell me which exact part is an assumption.
Sephiroth hasn't got super-strength, he has remarkable strength. Knowone even really questioned his abilities before Nibelheim so he was hardly inhumanly strong.Sephiroth's strength is unreal. He is far stronger in reality than any story you might have heard about him.They exist, of that there is no question.Sephiroth's shape changing abilities are questionable at best.
ONLY one person is ever seen to be directly controlled. I want a lot more "evidence" than you can seemingly muster.ONLY Jenova infected people are controlled, just how much evidence do you want?
But things are said. Cloud clearly says he was being summoned by Sephiroth, and when it's time for the showdown, who's ass are we going to the North Crater to kick? Go on, take a wild guess :rolleyes2Up until disc two everyone believes they are chasing Sephiroth, this is then only vaguely said not to be true once. It is left up to the gamer to realise what actually happened, things don't have to be said for them to be true.
ThE dArK oNe quote:
"JonJonB
Please Sephiroth can have psychic abilities because of a strong will... You also said his strong will allowed him to "control" Jenova's abilities. Can I have evidence how a strong will can allow you to do so much?"
Yeah I've been waiting for that too.Remember Sephiroth has absorbed knowledge and power from over two millenia -- what magic basically is is the knowledge of the Cetra. Now imagine their knowledge and that of those who came after them all gathered in one being. Makes a MUCH better case for power than anything that's ever said of Jenova IMO...quoted from Cloud's apology, AGAIN...
Cloud
"The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will, and my own weaknesses are what created me."
I'm still waiting for some dialogue that Jenova is the true villain -- frankly "it doesn't have to be said" really can't cut it.
Well said, but you can't assume that gives him psychic powers. He only mentions that he has obtained knowledge in the game.--- Temple of the AncientsRemember Sephiroth has absorbed knowledge and power from over two millenia -- what magic basically is is the knowledge of the Cetra. Now imagine their knowledge and that of those who came after them all gathered in one being. Makes a MUCH better case for power than anything that's ever said of Jenova IMO...
He says he is far greater than the Cetra, and the only evidence he gives of that is k"knowledge". Materia is condensed life energy. Thats why you can use magic of the Cetra. But Sephiroth was in the Life Stream, which consists of natural, uncondensed Life energy. There is no evidence that one can use the powers of the planet just by being in the life strem for a long time. That is only an assumption. It is an even more unlikely assumption even to the "assumption" that Jenova is greater than you say it is.
How can he absorb the energy of the Life Stream so easily? A strong will? I think he most likely had some help from a greater being--- Jenova.
Sephiroth did what he did because of what Hojo and Jenova did to him, so there's two other parties to blame without even thinking.
The reunion is a natural process? What on earth is that meant to mean? Are you posting specifically to get someone banned for flaming you?
I JUST questioned Sephiroth's abilities AND gave evidence, saying I'm wrong isn't an arguement.
Only one person is seen to be directly controlled? Are you playing the game or reading a script from somewhere? LOADS of people are seen to be controlled.
Sephiroth AND Jenova are in the crater, Cloud has personal issues with Sephiroth as that is he is the one he saw burn down his hometown, and the image that killed Aeris.
Jenova was in the lifestream with Sephiroth, so really that doesn't make any sense. You again failed to mention strong will.
Why are you waiting for dialogue? We've TOLD you we aren't going to give you any, stop asking for it.
I say what I think. If you disagree, then that is up to you.
It always gets hostile with this Sephiroth topic...
But in FFVII, knowledge is power, quite literally:Well said, but you can't assume that gives him psychic powers. He only mentions that he has obtained knowledge in the game.--- Temple of the Ancients
He says he is far greater than the Cetra, and the only evidence he gives of that is k"knowledge". Materia is condensed life energy. Thats why you can use magic of the Cetra. But Sephiroth was in the Life Stream, which consists of natural, uncondensed Life energy. There is no evidence that one can use the powers of the planet just by being in the life strem for a long time. That is only an assumption. It is an even more unlikely assumption even to the "assumption" that Jenova is greater than you say it is.
Sephiroth
"You were in SOLDIER and didn't even know that?"
"...the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients is held in the
materia."
"Anyone with this knowledge can freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts between ourselves and the planet, calling up magic..... or so they say."Think of Cloud - when he arrived at Mideel the doctor said he's had an immense amount of Mako-drenched knowledge put in all at once. Cloud pretty much caved in and contracted Mako poisoning. But Sephiroth's stronger than that. I think, given five years, he could quite certainly make use of all that "knowledge" he comes across. And we know he did, because he suddenly knows all about the Black Materia and Meteor (and the fact that he flat out tells us he gained the knowledge). There's never any indication that Jenova's involved somehow.How can he absorb the energy of the Life Stream so easily? A strong will? I think he most likely had some help from a greater being--- Jenova.
Hojo "created" Sephiroth in a sense, but that doesn't make him responsible for his son's actions. Once Sephiroth discovered the truth of his origins, he made the choice to kill. Jenova didn't "do" anything to him, no blame can be placed on her really.Sephiroth did what he did because of what Hojo and Jenova did to him, so there's two other parties to blame without even thinking.
Never heard of natural process? Take my hand, as an example. If I draw a blade across the palm, the skin breaks and I bleed. Given time, though, the blot clots and my skin begins to heal, until it's no longer broken. It's back together. I didn't use any special powers to do this, it's a completely natural healing process. Even's Hojo's wording is suggestive of this. He plain says "You see, even if Jenova's body is dismembered, it will eventually become one again. That's what is meant by Jenova's Reunion."The reunion is a natural process? What on earth is that meant to mean? Are you posting specifically to get someone banned for flaming you?
"it will eventually become one again"? This doesn't suggest a conscious decision at all, sounds more natural IMO.
One person is seen to be directly controlled -- Cloud. The Clones are led by Sephiroth, who's presumably the one filling their heads with all that "master" crap, but I don't recall seeing Sephiroth ever literally controlling them in the way he does with Cloud.Only one person is seen to be directly controlled? Are you playing the game or reading a script from somewhere? LOADS of people are seen to be controlled.
Uh huh, and Jenova gets no mention. She's like a semi-forgotten hurdle by the time we reach her in the Crater. She's there, but easily jumped over and quickly forgotten in favor of bigger hurdles.Sephiroth AND Jenova are in the crater, Cloud has personal issues with Sephiroth as that is he is the one he saw burn down his hometown, and the image that killed Aeris.
Why doesn't it make sense? Perhaps Jenova couldn't wield the true power of the lifestream (her job is pretty much consuming it, remember?). I wouldn't be surprised if she couldn't do a damn thing other than eat it, considering she wasn't even partly made from FFVII's planet.Jenova was in the lifestream with Sephiroth, so really that doesn't make any sense. You again failed to mention strong will.
Because dialogue is the only feasible proof when it comes to a theory this contrary to the game's own story. The fact that you can't provide any real evidence is pretty bad news for your theory.Why are you waiting for dialogue? We've TOLD you we aren't going to give you any, stop asking for it.
True, but if it weren't for Jenova's cells and Hojo's experimentation, Sephiroth would be a normal human being. It's hard to tell whether Jenova has control over her cells or not, but I have to think that Hojo was at least somewhat aware of the possible consequences of his experiment.Hojo "created" Sephiroth in a sense, but that doesn't make him responsible for his son's actions. Once Sephiroth discovered the truth of his origins, he made the choice to kill. Jenova didn't "do" anything to him, no blame can be placed on her really.
The experiments were done in order to create a super-human being, that much is clear. Sephiroth was, for all intensive purposes, a success. Before he even came in contact with the Lifestream, he was already the most powerful member of SOLDIER (see the Nibelheim flashbacks).
Both Cloud and Sephiroth had similar experiments performed on them. As members of SOLDIER, both had been given Mako treatments and Jenova cells. There is one crucial difference however; Sephiroth was injected with Jenova cells before he was even born, while Cloud recieved them after the Nibelheim incident. I don't know if there's much evidence in the game to support it, but it's my opinion that this more intense exposure to Jenova cells may be the reason that Sephiroth can handle all that Mako while Cloud cannot.Think of Cloud - when he arrived at Mideel the doctor said he's had an immense amount of Mako-drenched knowledge put in all at once. Cloud pretty much caved in and contracted Mako poisoning. But Sephiroth's stronger than that. I think, given five years, he could quite certainly make use of all that "knowledge" he comes across. And we know he did, because he suddenly knows all about the Black Materia and Meteor (and the fact that he flat out tells us he gained the knowledge). There's never any indication that Jenova's involved somehow.
~MJE~
"Ipso, facto, meeny moe...MAGICO!!!"
Sephiroth not only isn't strong enough to control a huge mako rush, at that point it would probably destroy his mind. We just watched him go homicidal crazy, his mind isn't strong. Cloud would be in a much better mind state, and he needed Tifa to bring him back, all Seph had was Jenova, he certainly had nothing to cling to from his prior life.
Sephiroth's strength and mind state are both direct results of Hojo and Jenova. He had absolutely no descision in it. He cannot be held responsible for his actions even if Jenova wasn't in control.
There is no reason the knowledge of the Temple and Meteor, and the powers and appearances of Bizzaro and Safer were not from Jenova. Given noone else gains these powers, changes or knowledge it seems very far fetched that a crazy person who should be recovering from five years in mako mysteriously developes them. Espescially given the thing that sets him apart the most is the amount of exposure to Jenova he has.
The clones are controlled, people don't just travel to craters at random. Yes your hand does heal, but if it's cut off it wont get up and walk over to your wrist.
If Jenova can't absorb lifestream there's no reason Sephiroth should be able to, Cloud can't and the only difference is Jenova.
I choose logic over the words of crazy game characters when it comes to evidence.
I say what I think. If you disagree, then that is up to you.
Again, retreading old, old ground, so I'll only be countering one thing:
This is, quite possibly, the stupidest thing I ever heard and I think my IQ has been lowered just from reading it. Sephiroth had no choice in being implanted with Jenova cells before birth, but he made a very conscious decision to go on a killing spree when he found out the truth. This was not some "no other choice" situation. Finding out something shocking doesn't give anyone a license to kill. Sephiroth had two clear options: "murdering people" and "not murdering people". He chose the former, nothing and nobody forced it upon him. Such an idea is completely ridiculous.He had absolutely no descision in it. He cannot be held responsible for his actions even if Jenova wasn't in control.
Anyway, now that you've admitted you have no actual proof to back up your theory (and also said that you'd take your own clearly flawed "logic" before legitimate dialogue - i.e real evidence) it seems quite clear there is nothing left to debate. No proof = no truth, and I need no longer go over the same tired points. Good day.
I'm not going to answer that on grounds that I won't tolerate flaming, or arrogance of that level. I may have just contradicted myself, but it really wasn't intentional.
If anyone else who has a similar view to JJB would like to say why everything said so far by The Dark One and myself (most recently, I know there are more people) is incorrect with something other than "I choose not to answer", or "I don't accept that sort of evidence", then I am still very much willing to discuss it. As can be seen from the number of posts this topic and it's sub-topics can provide very good (and rare) opportunities for debate in this forum.
I say what I think. If you disagree, then that is up to you.
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