two sephiroths

[PhoenixAsh]

You didn't say a clone you said Sephy. Despite no clones actually physically looking like Sephiroth, or anyone but Sephiroth and Jenova being able to wield that sword, these aren't the most obvious flaws in this theory. The most obvious being, WHY BOTHER? Jenova had a perfectly good puppet inside the building. A Sephy clone is nearly as unrealistic as Sephy himself, given the only one with any real strength still need several people with him to get into the building, and he still managed to get caught.
The tattoo would be explained if it was Jenova, Sephiroth was experimented on more than anyone by Hojo, he would probably have a tattoo.
Cloud was asleep, and not in control of his mind at the time. Very much like Mideel if you want to make the comparison. Even if he had been awake, Jenova wouldn't want him to remember, it would have given too much away at the wrong time.

[Raistlin]

I meant Sephiroth clone. I had said it so many times earlier, that I just stopped saying it, and thought that by now everyone knew we were talking about a Sephiroth clone, or Jenova herself in disguise.

You still haven't explained a few things:

1. How Cloud actually got out
2. Why we don't know about it, as he's the main character
3. Why Cloud doesn't know about it, as when he was controlled later he still remembered.
4. The "2" tatoo Dio sees on the "black cloaked man" which seems to go with the Sephiroth clone theory.

[Zifnab]

Originally posted by Raistlin

1. How Cloud actually got out
2. Why we don't know about it, as he's the main character
3. Why Cloud doesn't know about it, as when he was controlled later he still remembered.
4. The "2" tatoo Dio sees on the "black cloaked man" which seems to go with the Sephiroth clone theory.

Concerning your last question, the person Dio saw had tattoo No.1, No.2 belongs to the man in the pipe.
Plus... Dio speaks of this person who's about Cloud's age... but once Cloud wins the chocobo race to escape prison, Dio sends him a letter, which then states Sephiroth and him have spoken. Presuming 'Tattoo 1' guy is Sephiroth, why would Sephiroth come to the Gold Saucer, leave, then come back and talk to Dio?

Concerning Cloud escaping... I find it unlikely. For one, Tifa was in the room the whole time and didn't see or hear anything, not to mention that after they fell asleep, when they woke up later Cloud was sitting in the exact same spot as when he went to sleep.

Here's a totally random theory... maybe Reeve unlocked the cell? *very random*

[Raistlin]

"1 tatoo" whatever. I knew it was some number, I just guessed "2." :P

Well, that's about the time, I imagine, that Sephiroth goes to the Temple of the Ancients, if I remember correctly. Maybe he just wanted to know about the Keystone for...er...some reason? Well, two possible reasons, actually:

1. He wanted to tell Dio not to give it up.
2. He instructed Dio to give it up. Meh

Cloud: yes, that is very random. Hehe, it's very interesting, and you could make a really cool story out of it, but it's pretty doubtful.

[Sephiroth's Mate]

well this one a bit farfetched but

Rufus the presidents son could hav done all of these
--- he would want dear ole dad dead so he could inherit the family buisness.
--- he killed the president with sephs sword although he could weild its true power he could still use it as a normal sword and i dont think the president would expect his son to jus kill him hence why he didnt run away
--- he released jenova to make it look like it was her (so now shes out of being frozen in some chemical soup which stops her from doing anything)
--- he released cloud and co so someone would kill jenova (easyer than sending an army to there death)
--- he jus happened to be there the day it all happened after being away on buissness for ages.
--- tell me if ive left something out

also another farfetched one could be the guard opened the cell in order to find someone strong enough to kill a nutty beast runnin round killin stuff. but before the guard woke cloud he was himself killed. jenova sensing the jenova cells in cloud left him alone for some reason
(maybe she was still a bit out of it after being in some chemical stopping her from moving for the last few years)

but if non of these are plausable id go with pheonix's idea coz he got supporting evidence

[PhoenixAsh]

Raistlin I've explained questions 2, 3 and 4 several times now, I'm not going to again.
To be honest the last post is a very good explanation of what happened. The part about the guard unlocking him and all. The question of timing is my only problem with it.
It couldn't have been anyone but Sephiroth or Jenova because no-one else can handle that sword, there is also someone watching at the time.

[Storm]

I was given the impression throughout the game that the people wearing black cloaks were Sephiroth clones. And not only that, they appeared to be really weak and useless. If these are the clones you are refering to, then there's no way they could have killed all those people in the Shinra building.


I may have missed it, but are there strong sephiroth clones? They all seemed to just limp around.

That means that the murderer must be Jenova.

I don't think Reeve would have released them. At that point in the game, Avalanche was still a terrorist group so releasing them would only danger Midgar.

The only person I could possibly see as opening the cell door is Hojo. Hojo knows who Cloud is and that he contains Jenova cells. He probably wanted to see if Jenova still had control over Cloud. Notice how Hojo took off right after that instant for a vacation? Maybe it was to avoid suspicion that he actually opened the cell.

And after climbing all those stairs, I'm sure Tifa was asleep like a baby. She wouldn't have noticed Cloud waking up. Also note that she wasn't awake when the guard was killed. I'm sure that was much noisier than Cloud simply leaving the cell.

Although my theory requires a lot of assumptions, it is the most probable one. However, I think that it's just a plot hole. The door was simply opened just so the game could continue, although that explanation is very weak and it's hard to believe Squaresoft would do something so silly and simple like that.

[Raistlin]

Viper: no explanation as to why you don't follow Cloud. No explanation as to why Cloud doesn't remember.

Yes, there are strong Sephiroth clones. For one, Cloud.
Just because 90-some% are failures, doesn't mean they all are. Only the ones you see walking around in in all the towns are the useless ones.

[PhoenixAsh]

Who's Viper? Can't see that name anywhere?

I've explained several times why Cloud doesn't remember. For one he was asleep, for two Jenova wouldn't want him to. You don't follow him for the same reason you don't in Mideel, you don't have to.

I like the Hojo idea, that would make a lot of sense too.

Raistlin are you now trying to prove our point? Cloud is one of, if not the only successful clone, so he is therefore the prime candidate for someone who could release Jenova.

[Sephiroth's Mate]

first of all WHO IS viper? thats confused me a treat.

and did noone even look at my post or was it jus too unplausable to coment on?

also im really confused on the whole cloud bein a successful clone o' seph. how are the clones of seph made? wudnt they be more clones of jenova than seph?
coz there gettin her cells not sephs. (please someone explain that to me it really confusin me all this clone buissness)

oh and storm you climbed the stairs????? do you have no balls its way more fun runnin thru the front door screamin an shoutin with barret goin mad shootin round at everythin

[Big D]

OOC:

Note on 'Sephiroth Clones'. Sephiroth was 'made' as a result of Jenova's cells being injected into a Human being, inducing new powers and strengths. The 'Clones' are people who've also been injected with Jenova cells in an attempt to reproduce the same success - to create someone with power comparable to Sephiroth's. They aren't 'Clones' in the sense of being exact replicas, but they were intended to match Sephiroth's might and brilliance. Needless to say, the 'Clone' programme wasn't wholly successful. For further debate on 'Sephiroth Clones', see the thread entitled 'Cloud and Zack [spoilers maybe]'.

[PhoenixAsh]

I actually commented on it the first post after yours.

Kishi would probably know for sure, but I believe the word clone is just a mistranslation.

[Sephiroth's Mate]

oh rite so theyre not really clones but people who were given jenova cells to gove em powers?

oh and whats the deal with the big OOC: thing before some posts

[Big D]

'OOC' is short for 'Out Of Context' or 'Out Of Character'. I tend to use it for posts which aren't strictly on-topic, or which are 'asides' rather than direct contributions to a discussion. See here for more info on 'OOC'.

[Raistlin]

Err...I have no clue who Viper was. Either he deleted his post or I'm going dillusional(probably the latter).

Anyways, why would Jenova want Cloud to forget?

Lastly, Sephiroth was being controlled because he went insane. Cloud's not insane, he's mentally stable(how stable is up to debate). He resists every time Sephiroth tried to control him later in the game...so why would he give up so easily?

Yeah, Cloud's a Sephy clone. But I still don't think it was him. Meh.