two sephiroths

[Big D]

OOC:

kali has hit the nail squarely on the head - "it is all speculative". Really, most of the theories in this thread are valid to a lesser or greater extent. There's nothing in the game to either fully confirm or unequivocally deny most of them... in the end, it's basically a matter of personal opinion. If one thing's certain, that is that it'd be nice to know... but unless Square or Hironobu Sakaguchi et al make some kind of official statement, we may never know. But then, that's where the fun is - trying to fill in the gaps. So many games these days are cut-and-dried, explained in one syllable words so that even the most obtuse gamer can understand them. It's great that FFVII still has us speculating, six years after its release...

[JonJonB]

Perhaps Seph was using his will to manipulate Jenova's headless (and presumably insensate) body, after it was sprung from Shinra HQ?

That is my belief, and a theory I peddled at FFO quite some time ago. There are three other prevailant ideas people come up with in these debates, but I personally find them to be flawed.

-"We are following a real Sephiroth clone" - this is clearly full of holes. A perfect genetic copy of Sephiroth, and nobody ever mentions this astounding scientific breakthrough in the game? Silly.

-"We are following a projection of Sephiroth" - On the surface this is rather sound. I myself have problems believing Sephiroth can emit a corporeal mental projection of himself from the North Crater, without there ever being a mention of such an amazing ability.

-"We are following Jenova who's pretending to be Sephiroth" - Ok...but why would she do this? Why does nobody ever mention Jenova's plot to impersonate Sephiroth? Why is there just one line of dialogue from Jenova if she's such an important part the story? Why does the entire game build up Sephiroth as the main villain? You can see I don't like the idea.

Possible problems with my theory

-"The tattoo Dio mentions." - A number one tattoo. Why the hell not? Wasn't Sephiroth the first known product of the Jenova project? It's not only Sephiroth clones who get tattoos, didn't Red XIII have one?

-"Nobobdy ever comes out and says this" - Indeed, and it's a bitch, but nobody ever directly clears up this point of the story, which is why we're discussing it. Although, if you have Yuffie in your party when defeating Jenova DEATH, then afterwards she'll say "You mean we were following THAT THING this whole time?" To me, this is a killshot to both the "clone" and "projection" theories.

-"Didn't Cloud say Sephiroth was carrying Jenova with him?" - Yes, and that is slightly damning...or is it? It's my belief that Cloud saw Sephiroth, fought Jenova, then jumped to his own conclusions. This line is it an early part of the game where we're just dipping our toes in the great lake that is FFVII's story, and I don't think we should rely on Cloud's possibly confused conclusions as gospel truth.


So there. People might disagree, but I firmly believe Sephiroth manipulated Jenova's headless body when the time for the Reunion came. He bust out of the container, assumed his own human form, freed Cloud, killed many people including President Shinra, began to gather the clones and then headed off for the Black Materia and eventually the Reunion. It took a bloody long time to work out that theory, but I'm sticking with it

[Raistlin]

First off, yes, every theory is speculative. It's not all speculative, however. Looking at in-game facts, it's possibel to come up with a most likely possibility.


Where in the game is it even suggested that Sephiroth controls Jenova? Jenova is more powerful than Sephiroth. Sephiroth is ONLY as powerful as he is because he was injected with cells from Jenova.
That Sephiroth is the last boss is purely game mechanics.


JJB: there are numerous reasons why Jenova might want to impersonate Sephiroth. For one, to manipulate Cloud. Two, maybe not look so conspicuous.
And, no, I usually don't listen to most of what Cloud says either. He's messed up in the head, remember.

[JonJonB]

Ok, I have my doubts about her impersonating Sephiroth to just lure Cloud, but even so that still doesn't answer the three other questions

Why does nobody ever mention Jenova's plot to impersonate Sephiroth?
Why is there just one line of dialogue from Jenova if she's such an important part the story?
Why does the entire game build up Sephiroth as the main villain?

[kali]

Originally posted by Raistlin

Where in the game is it even suggested that Sephiroth controls Jenova? Jenova is more powerful than Sephiroth. Sephiroth is ONLY as powerful as he is because he was injected with cells from Jenova.
That Sephiroth is the last boss is purely game mechanics.

oK....if jenova is so powerful and great how come she was locked up in Shinra and Hojo was able to use her and her cells ....
IF Gast + Hojo + Shinra can use the oh-so-great Jenova...then why can't Sephiroth?

[Raistlin]

JJB:

1. Tell me one person who could possibly mention. Only Jenova or Sephiroth would know.

2. The whole game is from Cloud's perspective, except for a small part in the second disk. She's not an important part of the story to HIS mind. only Sephiroth is. Plus, if the Jenova = Sephiroth theory is true, most of the dialogue is from Jenova.

3. See above. It's from Cloud's perspective.


Kali: Give me ONE possible explanation as to why Sephiroth could be more powerful than Jenova.
Jenova was trapped by the Cetra; she'd be vulnerable upon first recovery.

[JonJonB]

I'm sorry, but none of that's good enough for me. When there's something so majorly important in a story, there is mention of it. At the very least there is a barrage of hints, subtle or otherwise. But there is NOTHING to suggest Jenova is the true power who is controlling the situation, it's always Sephiroth, Sephiroth, Sephiroth.

[PhoenixAsh]

It is never suggested in the game that Sephiroth, and only Sephiroth should develop INSANE psychic powers. Mind control over dozens of people, and a millenia old extremely powerful and intelligent alien, whilst entombed in mako on the other side of the planet. Most clones, are a bit strong. Notice that Sephiroth never even hints at having them before he goes crazy. Why? Because Jenova could then take control of him properly.

Hojo can't control Jenova, neither can Gast, or Shinra.

This thing about why does it look like Sephiroth. Well other than because of what Raistlin, myself and many others have said, why would it?
Let's think of Seph's train of thought:
"Okay let's think, I want to change the appearance of that thing I'm controlling on the other side of the world for no apparent reason.
Okay I'll just tell people I want it to be unnoticed if anyone asks.
Good Sephy, that whole insanity and being nearly killed hasn't made ya lose it one bit. In fact you're now mind's unrealisticly powerful. Oh wait I'm talking to myself, that can't be good...
Okay so what am I gonna make it look like? Hmm let's make it human, right now who do I know? Oh! Me! Yes I'm famous, easily recognisable and have no reason to implicate myself given everyone thinks I'm dead.
Sephy, you've done it again old boy..."

[JonJonB]

Sephiroth's manipulation and "strong will" are mentioned several times in the game. No such thing is ever said in relation to Jenova. It's entirely possible he could use this will to directly control a consciousless blob of Jenova. Why assume his regular human form? Because...it's him. It makes sense. Why would Jenova herself assume Sephiroth's form? To go unnoticed? Yeah, I think there are better forms than a FAMOUS DEAD WAR HERO to choose if you don't want to be notice. Taking on the image of Sephiroth simply to lure one clone seems pretty weak to me.

[PhoenixAsh]

Because it's him. He'd use extraordinary psychic powers (which has no reason to posess), to create a duplicate of himself, simply because of what? Vanity? There's no logic to it at all. There were other reasons I think, but it's really a point that needs explaining by both sides.
As for strong will, Sephiroth's mind is weaker than most average people by that point. Jenova is one of the most powerful beings ever.
Jenova's body wouldn't be conciousless, given her arm is capable of independant action.

[Raistlin]

First off, answer me this: WHY is Sephiroth so extraordinarily power? There's ONE reason and ONE reason only: Jenova cells. Sephiroth's body is the combination of human genes injected with a relatively small amount of Jenova cells(small compared to Jenova herself). Jenova is a mass of 100% Jenova cells. Who do you think's more powerful?

And Jenova's manipulation is far more powerful than Sephiroth, and is stated directly in the game...by Sephiroth. It's in the North Crater, during that flashback to Nibelheim. I forget the exact quote. I'll check a script and post it.

And how are my points hold to swallow? They're more factual to in-game proof than what you're saying is.

[Big D]

Yeah, Jenova's raw power is greater than Sephiroth's. All of his superhuman abilities came from the Jenova cells within him. His already strong will was given greater influence and breadth due to the time he spent in the Lifestream. But Jenova was selaed in rock for two millennia, extracted, locked up, cut up, beheaded, then shut in a container of goo.

[q=P 17]Jenova's body wouldn't be conciousless, given her arm is capable of independant action.[/q]
Only a limited degree of independant action. Using magic, and saying one line of dialogue is all that the Jenova 'pieces' manage. They are quite weak and helpless compared to teh whole, really. That would explain how Sephiroth could control Jenova's headless body - she was in pieces, all over the world. Her power would be spread thin. His will was intact, and he knew how to control and direct it.

As JonJonB has pointed out, there a re no sound explanations as to why Jenova would take on Sephiroth's form in order to be 'inconspicuous'. Sephiroth, however, would either project his own 'poltergeist' image, or create that illusion with Jenova's insensate body. He wanted respect, he wanted fear, he wanted the world to know who was taking charge (or so he thought).

[ThE dArK oNe]

If Jenova is more in control of everything dats going on, then that must mean Sephiroth wants Jenova to cosume the wolrd and control the life energy. That must mean it is Jenova's desire to "become a god" and Sephiroth has no intentions except to help what he believes to be his mother. I always thought it was Sephiroth himself who wanted to become a god...

If that is so, how come the final bosses (Bizzaro and Safer) look like sephiroth? I think Jenova takes the form as Sephiroth because the two are in a way using eachother. Sure Jenova is scientifically stronger, but Sephiroth has an extremely strong will. Jenova has weakened a lot, so Sephiroth would in a way have "more control". Or not..........

[Raistlin]

Big D: why would Sephiroth control Jenova's headless body? Jenova was his mother. He obeyed her implicitly.

Tdo: There's two possible explanations for that which I've come up with:

1. Jenova, being an alien, could not absorb the Lifestream, but Sephiroth could. This is the most likely and easier to understand.

2. Jenova is out for revenge, and the whole plot of absorbing the Lifestream is just a ruse to get Sephiroth to trust in her more. Meteor would destroy the Planet and all life on it, and Jenova would go back to wherever she came from.
This one is much more speculative, but answers some important questions. For some reason, I find myself believing in this one more.

[JonJonB]

Because it's him. He'd use extraordinary psychic powers (which has no reason to posess), to create a duplicate of himself, simply because of what? Vanity? There's no logic to it at all. There were other reasons I think, but it's really a point that needs explaining by both sides.

No...because it's him. Sephiroth would assume the form of Sephiroth because (say it with me) it's him. That is who he is. There is logic to Sephiroth taking on this form, there is no real logic to Jenova taking on the same form.

As for strong will, Sephiroth's mind is weaker than most average people by that point. Jenova is one of the most powerful beings ever.

Oh please, whatever true power Jenova had is lost all throughout the game until the reunion, and even then Sephiroth is the more powerful of the two. What did she do during the Cetra ages? Shapeshifted and spread a virus? Big whoop, clearly she's "one of the most powerful beings ever".

Jenova's body wouldn't be conciousless, given her arm is capable of independant action.

Well, that can be explained in two ways:
1 - Basic defense instinct

2 - Sephiroth still controls the pieces after dropping them.

First off, answer me this: WHY is Sephiroth so extraordinarily power? There's ONE reason and ONE reason only: Jenova cells. Sephiroth's body is the combination of human genes injected with a relatively small amount of Jenova cells(small compared to Jenova herself). Jenova is a mass of 100% Jenova cells. Who do you think's more powerful?

During FFVII? Sephiroth. We don't know how much Jenova cells were injected into Sephiroth, but it was likely a high concentration. Either that, or the extra boost came from being injected while in the womb. Now, no doubt Jenova has strength, since those who carry her cells "inherit" this. But what else? She can shapeshift (supporting the theory that we're following Jenova's body, whoever's controlling it). She can spread a virus that turns people into monsters. Ok, what else? ....god knows, that is all we know of Jenova's "power". Who's to say Sephiroth didn't directly "inherit" Jenova's strength, carrying her cells before birth? So he could be just as powerful as her.

And Jenova's manipulation is far more powerful than Sephiroth, and is stated directly in the game...by Sephiroth. It's in the North Crater, during that flashback to Nibelheim. I forget the exact quote. I'll check a script and post it.

Jenova's shapeshifting power is mentioned in the North Crater. Jenova's only true manipulation is revealed in the Gast videos, and it's an entirely different form than what I'm talking about when I refer to Sephiroth's strong will (something Jenova is never said to have, thankyaverymuch).

And how are my points hold to swallow? They're more factual to in-game proof than what you're saying is.

They're "factual" in a sense, but they're not logical. The game is from Cloud's perspective, so we never get to find out anything about "Jenova's true power" and never even get a little hint that she's pulling the strings? It would be sloppy storytelling, very sloppy. FFVII isn't always perfect, but it never falls to those depths.