Why so many women?

[Besimudo]

Quite true, but I do not have a problem with the style or the perfect sheen...It the fact that I used to view too much Anime and i cannot tolerate the cliche manga bad guy now.

All you have to do is tune into crud like Pokemon (James), Urotsitadoji was good (Faust) or even burn up... to see the congenial bad guy.... Why cant we see a sickened old gangster fat guy or a small cocky dictator like Hitler even a macho style bad guy is refreshing in Anime compared with the soft voiced, neatly groomed and usually androgenous baddie.

I think the Japanese have a fettish for the Seymore/Kuja/Sephiroth style hell bent on destroying the world to "clense it". Thats my main objection.

[Big D]

Why cant we see a sickened old gangster fat guy

..Don Corneo...

or a small cocky dictator like Hitler

...President Deling, President Shinra...
These characters work well as less-than-ultimate opponents. They have power, but its all financial and/ or political. Besides, there are too many of them in THIS world, without shoehorning even more of them into fantasy worlds.
"Macho style" usually equates to brawling meat-headedness (Duke Nukem et al), completely devoid of intellect and magic - two key components of FF villains, due to their universal intent to obtain limitless power and the ability to transform into a powerful winged thingy when confronted by their nemesi.

'Smooth' opponents such as Sephiroth have a look of precision yet are also outlandishly unconventional. Refined but unconcerned with what the 'mainstream' tolerates. They're strong enough, in every sense, to simply not care. I agree that Kuja looked marginally absurd; the same however could be said of most of FFIX's cast. I'm not familiar with Seymour so I can't comment, but Sephiroth wasn't exactly 'androgynous' at least he wasn't any more so than Cloud or any other anime-styled hero.

Take a look at Laguna... he matches the image stereotype you mentioned. He's a hero, of course, yet you often refer to his nack for destroying womens' lives, and you've also described him as having 'infernal powers'. Something to think about, in my opinion...

[PhoenixAsh]

Okay Sephiroth wasn't anything like you described Besimudo. He was smooth yes, but that probably owes a lot to the date the game came out.

Women aren't powerful at all in the game. In fact they are probably the weakest in any FF. This excludes X where they were simply pointless (bar Lulu who was really badly underused).

Let's look at the main three:

Quistis: Starts off in a position of power. Within about two hours is fired. Within about five is overtaken by Squall (a rookie). Within ten is just a non entity in the game.

Selphie: Her introduction FMV, she falls over. During the game she does very little except act girly. When Squall is gone she relies on Zell in the prison (as does Quistis). She does have one small section in control, but that really didn't mean a lot.

Rinoa: She spends most of the game either sitting down, under the control of someone else, or being saved by Squall.

Other main females in the game either died, or were outsmarted by men.

[Cyan_Lightning]

I suppose the whole analysis of a 'strong woman' depends on how you choose to define strength. I would agree that women in FFVIII, both main and minor characters have aspects of strength. As most of the women in the game partake in battle continuously, we can deduce that they not only possess the physical strength and stamina needed for such an activity, but also the mental strength to deal with the emotional repercussions of taking another person's life.

However, I find it interesting that Squall, whose strength is made clear at many points in the game, would choose as a partner arguably the weakest, physically and emotionally, of the females. Perhaps this says something about the nature of masculinity, for it seems to imply that a man, given a choice, would opt for the ego-massage of constantly being needed, rather than the shared burden of mutual self-sufficiency?

[kali]

Originally posted by Besimudo

Simply talk about the idea of women in FFVIII it is a very strong theme.

I would appreciate a character analysis or even a look at social precept of women (why are women so powerful in FFVIII)

Besimudo?....a topic?....

Ok!...I agree and disagree with you all.....

However! it is impossible to ignore the fact that all the main villains in FF8 are female.

---- I have not played many games. But ff8 is probably the only game i have played in which the final villain is female. Edea, Adel and Utimecia are female. It is undeniable. This is probably why the game is so unpopular...however i will not comment on that

----When compared to FF9 and FF10, ff8 definitely gives women more physically powerful roles...maybe not in the main heroines but definitely in the villains.

-----However -- ff7 is tricky....because of Jenova....the Sephiroth/jenova connection has been debated and debated and debated....but the fact still remains that the very last person you fight is sephiroth...whether Jenova controlled or not....he is male....

FF8 --is different in its portrayal of villains as female...Imagine the horror...making gamers (who are usually male).....fight against a final villain thats ...egad ...oh no...A girl????

However i think the heroines of FF7 has more impact and fortitude in the game that FF8

--Tifa saves the damsel in distress "cloud" from the life stream ...what exactly Quitis does i don't really know...

-- Aeris sacrifices her life to save the world (ok maybe not aeris so much ...you could almost draw a straight line between her and rinoa. Cloud never 'saves aeris' but Squall saves Rinoa on countless occasions....but then if you look at strenght from a non-physical point of view you can almost say that Rinoa saves Squall from loniness and love-less-ness......SO I DON'T REALLY KNOW....

I can't compare strength in FF7 and FF8 on non-physical...it's hard....

I can only go on the fact that the villains in FF8 were female...which in my opinion really counts as a valid point.

WOW....i wrote a lot.......(and the sad part is i can go on and on....lol but i will stop this rant

[Besimudo]

Initially I mentioned Xu, Rinoa, Edea, Quistis and Adel.

Women posses the pinnacle of all the areas in FF8 i.e. military, love, leadership and dictatorships. I loved FF8 for this reason it reinforced history to show that although women are in general less powerful than men, In some cases they are the MOST powerful figures in the world. Cleopatra, Elizabeth I and Queen Margarthe I of Denmark are examples of the woman’s ability to crush and win, to build lasting empires. These women make Hitler, Napoleon and even the great Cao Cao look weak.

My point.... FF7, 9 and 10 had unconventional male characters to stir up the mainstream (a baddie should be big and tough) BUT Square has desperately overdone this stereotype to death and I think you have to agree with me on this point...sure Sephiroth was semi original as far as FF goes but definitely not Japanese anime (Sephiroth type villains are the norm in Jap Anime). Where as FF8 gave the aspiring historians amongst us something to critically analyse, despotic rulers rather than apocalyptic madmen as in FF7 and FF9 AND FF10 let me guess FF 12 as well. LOL

I think saying that "most players are male and this is why they chose female villains" denies the brilliant depth that FF8 goes into. To the historian, the Female power figure has a much larger impact than the male villain.

I was hoping for some character analysis or perhaps some thing about women that I missed.... I cannot help it if some of my posts are occasionally non-sensical, but they contain insights which are very difficult to translate. I prefer to work as a device of inspiration so I try to put everything down (so people can comment on more topics in greater detail than I can) in a thread.

Next week Ill start a new tread but it deals with the GFs and how squalls attitude at the start shapes our opinions about them. In a normal RPG the "magical forces" are given a god like status see FF7, 9 and 10 for example. Yet FF8 reflects our own ignorance of the divine realm. When Squall tells Quistus that he forgot to junction....A moron could say that "this was just an excuse to show the player how to junction" whereas the aspiring academic would see it as a subconscious trigger...Analogous to someone forgetting their keys.
When we become familiar with things we become apathy sets in NOW when apathy sets in we forget. GFs are so every day in FF8 that they have been pushed into insignificance, and this is very relevant to me.

This is a very detailed literary theme "the idea of the familiar" FF8 used it brilliantly. Initially I dealt hard treatment to the other FF games, and although these other titles were very enjoyable as far as "high" literature goes they have problems cutting it. It is almost a shame that FF8 is a game because it will never attract the older academic audience it could have as a novel.

[kali]

Originally posted by Besimudo
Initially I mentioned Xu, Rinoa, Edea, Quistis and Adel.

I think saying that "most players are male and this is why they chose female villains" denies the brilliant depth that FF8 goes into.

Dude.....you really need to read accurately...when did i ever say that?...i was making the exact opposite point

And you saying that a female villain historically has more power than a male one is simply reverse sexism and has no backing

[PhoenixAsh]

I don't think it's reverse sexism, I usually hate that and pick up on it (I think). To be honest Besimudo I think you're seeing things that aren't there because you love the game, and literature so much.

FFVIII's villains weren't great. Certainly not the females. Edea wasn't a villain, and Adel and Ulti were just (as much as we're allowed to say in here) bosses thrown in. The only villain who had character was Seifer.
FFVII's villain was actually debatable, you had to think about the game to understand the truth.

Now the character's you mentioned.

Xu: Over taken by Squall within days. Played no really big role.

Rinoa: I've discussed previously.

Edea: Spent most her time being controlled, or looked after by Zell or Cid.

Quistis: I've already discussed.

Adel: Outsmarted by Laguna, and beaten by Squall. Other than that did VERY little.

Yet FF8 reflects our own ignorance of the divine realm. When Squall tells Quistus that he forgot to junction....A moron could say that "this was just an excuse to show the player how to junction" whereas the aspiring academic would see it as a subconscious trigger

Careful dude, I know I have no right to judge so I'm not, but that sounds a lot like your early FFVII fan bashing posts.

[Besimudo]

Hum...

Is it becuase I suggest such outlandish ideas that everyone objects.

I could simply sit back and describe some of the themes but insted I link an analyse the game on true merits.

Pheonix I listed you as a good member in the poll but your constant nonsense " your going too deep becuase you love this game" is growing old.

I do back things up I demonstrated that Women (with examples) are amoungst the most powerful people in history. Sure many male leaders have done quite well in power, but I think you could argue that Elizabeth I was not the ruler in England Golden age, Margarethe won the whole of northern Europe and Cleopatra is one of histories most celebrated rulers....

Even Canute (Margarethes ancestor) ruled England for 20 years only. Then Edward the confessor took it back and the Danish line was loosed.

Most men have been dictators (short lived military)
While Women have ruled for their lifespans...While this is not true in every case there is a strong correlation. One could argue that England had many other great rulers but non as Impressive as Elizabeth or Victoria.

When Cyan florished on the depth of Squall and Seifer no body objected.

Sure you could say that I go too deep but FF8 is the only one that alows it, with evidence. One could ramble on all day about the other but it would be just ramble.

[Big D]

Most men have been dictators

Umm...

[PhoenixAsh]

Besimudo I have no problem at all with your original approach to FFVIII, but you don't back up things with evidence from the game, you back them up with things from other places. For example I have listed almost every key female in the game and how they are all 'weak' compared to men, you have yet to say why they aren't.

I think you're going to deep because you love the game not because of your opinions on VIII, but how you rate it so far above the others. Cyan had a lot of good points, as do you, but I rarely see Cyan refer to people who see things differently as morons.

Just out of interest which poll are you talking about, and err thanks for whatever you listed me as good as. Wow there's some severe grammar problems there.

[Besimudo]

Ok Big D first... I was referring to the numerous dictators throughout history.

Next too phoenix... The reason that I like FF8 could be that it has all these great themes, whether they be literal or subtle.

I must confess that I actually preferred FF7 (for nostalgic reasons) to FF8 at the start, even though in hindsight FF8 has a much more impressive beginning.

I love FF8 because it is one of few games (vagrant story and chrono cross) that possess brilliant themes.

I can, if required even do an analysis of a crap movie like say "ROAD TRIP" allow me to speak about a "subtle" theme everyone missed. So consider this... Even a poor mainstream film such as "Road Trip" may seem lifeless when it comes to analysis... well it is, but did anyone out there actually pick up on the characters subtle traits. Of the 4 characters who embarked on the road trip, all but one engaged in sexual gratification, yet this same celibate character also quoted Plato and Socrates. I think the creators were too simple to link the platonic relationship in a subtle way to the characters actions....BUT NONE THE LESS THIS STILL OCCURED, THE THEME WAS IN THE FILM. So I apply the same measures to FF games ....

When I told this to other they also felt I was "going to far"

Quite simple... FF8 has all this content that many cannot detect. And if FF8 did not have these qualities I would have abandoned it!!

[PhoenixAsh]

Indeed, FFVIII does have deeper meanings. Although I do think FFVII is much deeper.

The reason I think you're looking too deep is not because you're finding things, but when (for example) in this thread I have shown evidence that you are wrong, you haven't attempted to back your theory up with evidence.

[Besimudo]

HAHAHA WRONG

No one ever sees my full plans.

For starters Kali exemplified my argument by proving that the female leaders fall to men.

This is good because it shows how ambitious militants have so consistently weakened the imperial (divine) ruler.


Did we miss the French revolution or something?

Its quite simple FF8 showed wonderfully the divine rights of the ruler. This is too commonly overthrown by military (Squall and Laguna), which makes the society worse off "see rebellions". This further cements FF8 God vs. humanity and as FF8 develops we see humanity start to overthrow god (hyne).

What I added to this was that Women have been among our most influential and powerful and in terms of tenue great rulers.

Are people here degenerate in European history or something.


Oh and as for your FF7 being deeper than 8
As I have said in my posts in the FF7 threads.... FF7 is more about imagery, which is chiefly "Japanese".
FF8 on the other hand is contextual, religious and many themes work on the intellect rather than the immediate psyche (as ff7 does a bit like the Japanese ghost stories, if any one is cultured enough to have seen one). FF7 works on the "plot" level which points to the characters where FF8 plays on the character level which points to the absolute. Homer, Shakespeare, Von Clausovitz (on War) all wrote to describe the divine level of the intellect and the writers of FF8 also did this... This is evident in the amount of quality "fan fiction" written about FF8. Notice that most FF7 fan fiction is about "sephiroths biggest weapon", even I refreshed the FF7 threads by analysing the imagery. And I must say FF7 has some very top class imagery, at times much more powerful than FF8's ever was.

Many people feel that (after the first time) FF7 is much more complex that FF8 and this is no surprise as "The true genius is always misunderstood by the common man." Lao Tsu.

I am now going to accuse the room of NOT GOING DEEP ENOUGH.

Don’t accuse me of going "off topic" phoenix started it and in the way of the Tao a good leader gives the people what they want... And for a month now it seems all the people want is conflict. As I stated in the very beginning.

I would really love to start afresh and delve into

1. Lagunas role as the infernalist. (humanity) and his evil powers ( look at the fates of Raine and Julia)

2. Some more on Blade runner and FF7. (one of my personal favs.)

3. Also a bold look at why most people prefer "medieval RPGs" to "sci -fi" I must say I like a bit of both!

Yet most of my time here in the past week has been devoted to defending the role of women, yet many of your attacks have merely complimented my views... This is the nature of true knowledge it is non-reducible. Socrates did it, so I guess it works!

Finnaly I back things up, I quote external sources… Most people here are incestuous gamers, who draw only from the primary source. This is about as academic as the creation scientists citing there own publications.

[Big D]

Drawing parallels between a game's plot and an assortment of myths, legends and literature doesn't necessarily mean that the game is superior in its intellectual and literary worth.

Mythological parallels could simply mean:
1) That it's possible to draw comparisons between tha game and pre-existing works

2) That the game is frightfully unoriginal in a way not seen since Shakespeare, taking some of its 'deepest' elements directly from other sources

3) That it's possible to read too much into what are really passing references or wholly unique plot points.

Its quite simple FF8 showed wonderfully the divine rights of the ruler. This is too commonly overthrown by military (Squall and Laguna), which makes the society worse off "see rebellions". This further cements FF8 God vs. humanity and as FF8 develops we see humanity start to overthrow god (hyne).

FFVIII's society was made 'worse off' by the sorceresses. Adel ruled Esthar with an iron fist; Laguna, despite his isolationist policies, helped Esthar to prosper.

The elements of military action and rebellion in FFVIII - at least, those revolving around Squall and Laguna - have more to do with restoring balance and freedom than with subverting rule by 'divine right'.

One other thing... Laguna's former crush and then his wife suffering misfortune in their lives, cannot be held as proof that he has 'infernal powers'. If a man has the hots for a singer who later gets married, has a child, and then dies in a car accident, this doesn't mean that the man is the spawn of Hell.