Why so many women?

[Besimudo]

Look man it does when he brings RAGNAROK to the MOON (where the great hyne lives).

No man made the world of FF8 worse and Esthar was doomed to the same fate as Centra...because of the forbidden fruit (knowledge)

Yeah I used to think Laguna was a good guy, and he is...but he is a subtle reflection of the human defiance against god. AND that is infernal. that doesn’t mean he is some baddie.

And if literary reference to religion is not brilliant then what is???? Good graphics and a catchy BGM

[Big D]

I never said that literary references are inherently bad. However, wholesale recycling of old ideas isn't the greatest sign of creativity.

Esthar was doomed to the same fate as Centra...because of the forbidden fruit (knowledge)

Centra was destroyed by the Lunar Cry, a natural phenomenon which had nothing to do with their technological advancement.

Esthar had the Cry inflicted upon them artificially. They weren't destroyed by it. Their advanced technology didn't help, but it certainly didn't contribute to their predicament.

Look man it does when he brings RAGNAROK to the MOON (where the great hyne lives).

In FFVI, the characters can use a sword named "Ragnarok" when they confront (SPOILER)Kefka, who assumes the form of a six-winged being - a Seraph, to some people. Does this mean that the entire cast of FFVI are demonic destroyers, bringing down the one man who wants to use his God(dess)-given powers to cleanse the world of humanity's interference? Far from it. By defeating their deceptively angelic opponent and his nihilistic tendencies, FFVI's characters restored life and peace to their world, rather than allowing (SPOILER)Kefka to obliterate all that had been achieved.

Yeah I used to think Laguna was a good guy, and he is...but he is a subtle reflection of the human defiance against god. AND that is infernal. that doesn’t mean he is some baddie.

Well, FFVIII's humans have good reasons to defy Hyne - he was a slave-driver, a killer who created humans to be nothing more than expendable tools. By ousting Hyne's influence from the world, he could be seen as an 'angel' of deliverance. As I've said, trying to correlate Christian myth and FFVIII's history is inherently flawed, due to the conflicting nature of the God in both circumstances. Where the Christian God is the source of all life and justice, Hyne is the source of all suffering and hardship - including the powers of the sorceresses.

[kali]

Originally posted by Besimudo

Oh and as for your FF7 being deeper than 8
As I have said in my posts in the FF7 threads.... FF7 is more about imagery, which is chiefly "Japanese".

Many people feel that (after the first time) FF7 is much more complex that FF8 and this is no surprise as "The true genius is always misunderstood by the common man." Lao Tsu.

I am now going to accuse the room of NOT GOING DEEP ENOUGH.

Besi....if you missed many of the complex themes of FF7 then i can only feel that you view it on a superficial level. Unlike Phoenix (whose questions you still have to answer) I do not feel that you go too deep....i feel as if you perpetually express yourself in a shallow, vague manner. You throw out theses without any evidence
For example take big D's post --i don't necessarily agree with big d but he explains his points very clearly by using evidence from the actual game.

You ask the room for depth when all you do is skim the surface....what the moon and the ragnorak have to do with the role of women in the game I have yet to understand.

But - I do enjoy your posts - you introduce many interesting points ......the only problem i have is that you rarely use evidence from the games to explain them.

for example ossible themes in ff7

--- Cloud and Sephiroth--hero & shadow (jung)
--- the concept of existance and humanity
--- theme of redemption
--- love and sacrifice (tifa and cloud)
--- Nature vs technology

etc etc etc .....there is so much you can discuss with FF7 also...but my simply typing those sentences really explain nothing. Which is exactly what you do when you randomly type stuff.

[PhoenixAsh]

It took me a while to think of just how to start this post, because frankly there's so much to be said, and so little likelyhood that I'd get a response that I ask for. I have to agree with Kali, I was wrong to say Besimudo was going too deep.

Besimudo quote:

Yet most of my time here in the past week has been devoted to defending the role of women, yet many of your attacks have merely complimented my views... This is the nature of true knowledge it is non-reducible. Socrates did it, so I guess it works!

Finnaly I back things up, I quote external sources… Most people here are incestuous gamers, who draw only from the primary source. This is about as academic as the creation scientists citing there own publications.

This is gonna be a waste of time I can feel it.

Besimudo you haven't defended the role of women, the closest you came was from what I remember a list of three famous women in the last few centuries. You certainly haven't shown evidence as to why women in the game are strong. You claim FFVIII to be special in this way, but as I have said, it contains possibly the weakest females yet. Our 'attacks' have not in any way complimented your views. Being unshaken by evidence without any defence is either faith or arrogance, it does not prove you have true knowledge.
Your last comment was just inaccurate, the method you refer to is more like Darwinists citing evidence from fossils. Your method is like Darwinists citing evidence from Genesis.

[Besimudo]

So the Christian God is not vengeful, forgetting the Old Testament aren’t we...clearly you attempt to simplify things Big D. (we can start a new thread for the old and new testament if need be).

As for Kali it is no surprise that the themes of FF7 are psychological... As I have investigated in the FF7 forum.
This confirms that FF7 is concerned with humanistic themes rather than the divine, like FF8 is.

Even the joining of Squall and Rinoa at the end is quite Homeric, As Odysseus and his wife also in the final scene of the odyssey join. Brilliant.

As for phoenix... The fact that the women are defeated just adds another dimension to the argument and i applaud this... the Male leads are militaristic Squall and Laguana defeat the divine rights of the ruling class (the sorceress). This hardly diminishes the impressive role the women play. Your point refers to how the infernal corrupts the divine...and this is another post, where we discussed how Laguna defeats women with his humanistic (infernal) presence...most of the time he does it with sheer luck (infernal powers) and when ever Laguna does contemplate something it turns out dreadfully wrong, and as we see him with Julia he makes an utter fool out of himself with the Leg cramp incident, yet by some odd luck Julia is possessed by his presence.

Strange is it not.

[Big D]

Laguna does NOT posess the powers of the Underworld! He's attractive to women because he's a nice guy and a charismatic leader, not because he enchants them with demonic powers. He's lucky, but not particularly so. Nearly getting killed in Centra wasn't that lucky... he took six months to recover. He never 'defeated' any women besides Adel, and anyway he used a reasonably sound plan to do this. Julia and Raine both died when Laguna was away from them... you might as well say that General Carraway is the son of the Devil - he was married to Julia when she died, and he spent a long time in opposition to his daughter. More infernal powers? Perhaps FFVIII is trying to tell us that ALL men are born from the depths of Hell, whereas women are divine and angelic.

So the Christian God is not vengeful, forgetting the Old Testament aren’t we...clearly you attempt to simplify things Big D. (we can start a new thread for the old and new testament if need be).

Every time I mention God's horrific acts as described in the Old Testament, some Christians start to whinge and get angry, so I usually skip over that. I'll gladly debate it in a different thread, though.

[PhoenixAsh]

Actually I spent quite a while trying to discuss that in the Darwinism thread over in EoEO, no one complained, it just didn't pick up much pace.

Besimudo what important roles are you talking about? Its not just that men are better, most women in the game do nothing productive at all. Those that do counter their own actions by doing something stupid.

[Besimudo]

mmmm... where is your evidence. I know what your tying to say, and on the surface FF8 appears to be nothing more than a high school flick. But if we take the Odyssey superficially then we could mistake it as "Greek Days of our Lives or Bold and the beautiful"

FF8 does not try to impose its themes (like other FF) bluntly onto the player. Even the GF's in FF8 are the least grandiose GF in any FF. Look at the important status the Aeons are given in FF10.

What am I saying...well FF8's GFs seem weak and irrelevant BUT they carry a more profound element to the game than FF10's Aeons ever did. I felt that the player was force fed the themes in FF10 whereas in FF8 even something as quintessential as the relationship between Laguna and Squall was vague. Same goes for sephiroth and cloud...however cloud just turned out to be a psychopath. (but then modern people find psychology more "soild" than myth....so it is no surprise that FF7 is more popular than FF8)

All I did was merely identify that Women play an important role in FF8, as they have done in european history. In fact Women are deeply rooted in the whole game.

Some people believe this was for sex appeal; but this is like saying that people drink water to live....when in actual fact most people drink because of the sensation of thirst.

I should fine people for irrelevancy when they say the women were just for sex appeal. Where in the game does it state this? where is your evidence. I provide evidence for my topics. I can remember some guy in high school who answer to “why did Macbeth kill Banquo” and his answer was… because Banquo had a better horse than Macbeth…. You people accuse me of going too deep so I will accuse any marketing strategies as being irrelevant. Saying that the women were in FF8 to entice male audience is purely hypothetical and cannot be quantified in ANY form. At least my outlandish analysis are related to the game ITSELF.

Oh by the way I have posted a new FF7 thread. .

[PhoenixAsh]

Dude, you HAVEN'T offered evidence! Thats the point!

You keep saying women play an important role. They don't. I've went through almost all the main females and they're all useless. FFVIII has the weakest females in all the FFs I've played.

As for the GFs being underplayed, what about VII? I'm not sure they actually get mentioned in text.

I know your not gonna like hearing this, but I stand by my stance that you are seeing things that aren't there because you love the game. Untill you give evidence from the actual game I have little reason to see otherwise.

[thelynchpin]

They only included girls such as Rinoa, Sephie and Quistis as good fighters so that women wouldn't write to squaresoft and complain about sexism

[kali]

I believe that there is a stronger female presence in FF8.
Just take a look at the specifics

1) Main characters:

ff7: 6 Men, 3 women
ff8: 3 men, 3 women
ff9: 4 Men, 2 women, 1 it
ff10: 4 men, 3 women

The main characters of the game are Very Important. And ff8 is the only game in which there is equality in the number of men and women. Numbers are relevant.

And i mentioned this before but nobody apparently seem to think it as important as I do:
2) The Main Villains
ff7: Shinra, Sephiroth, Jenova
ff8: Ultimecia, Adel, Edea
ff9: Kuja, Garland, Necron
ff10: Seymore, Sin/Jecht, Yevon

The non-specifics - random stuff to think about. From a social perspective.

Equality of the sexes??? I don't know
1) Quitis,a female, is incharge of training the seeds --whereas Soldier is run by Men and full of men. There are women in Seed but not in Soldier.
2) Edea + Cid formed ran the orphange and formed seed together....
3) Rinoa is an integral part of the forest owls...whereas Tifa (who can kick rinoa's ass any day of the week but i had to write it)....stays at the bar and takes care of Marlene.
4) Ellone is the one who possess the power to make people time travel via dreaming
5) The airship is flown by Selphie and not by a cid.
6) Selphie is the only one who gets to head a mission unlike the mission that was giving to Cid
7) The minor villains: Raijin and Fujin are on an equal level...whereas Elena is just some recruit in the Turks.

However FF7 also have strong female roles: 1)Tifa can kick ass, 3) Aeris is an ancient who sacrifices herself, 4)Scarlet 5) Jenova!!6) Elena, a recruit but still a turk

And there are many reason to scoff at some of the women in FF8....rinoa and that whole 'save me save me' squall routine....

Blah .....All that typing just so i can say :it's really a matter of opinion....depending on how you define powerful and important.

[PhoenixAsh]

Okay I realise you're neutral, but I'm gonna argue your points anyway because I'm excited about discussing the role of women in FFVIII for once.

First point, a quick note that there are actually three female main characters in FFIX. That's not really that important though.

Okay I'll go through the females in VIII again.

Rinoa- In constant need of being rescued, if not in a coma or being manipulated. Very short bursts of getting Squall to become hero.

Selphie- Falls over in her opening FMV, not very realistic personality, admittedly takes over for a very short period, but just flukes her way through instead of actually being intelligent or powerful.

Quistis- Starts way above Squall in terms of rank, apart from being rejected by him and having him overtake her in rank she doesn't actually do anything else. This is ignoring the stupidest military descision in the game in the assasination mission.

Edea- spends the whole game either being controlled by someone else, or being protected by men.

Ellone- She's kinda strong, but she still spends a lot of time being protected.

Adel- in the few scenes she has she does little more than be beaten by Squall and Laguna.

Ultimecia- She really doesn't qualify as a CHARACTER, you could just as easily say almost all the other bosses are male and argue if she could fight them all.

Xu- Not much of a role, but does get overtaken in rank by Squall, after being outranked by Cid previously.


In other FFs, Tifa, Beatrix, Dagger, Eiko, Yuna, Lulu, Aeris, Jenova all outshine these characters.

If need be I'll go into the males and say how these were stronger than females, but that'll kinda just be the same arguement.

[TidaRalique]

Before I go and say something stupid, Phoenix, what do you think about the theory of Rinoa=Ultimecia (interesting theory and adds a lot to Ultimecia's character)

FFX, well their females really didn't do much (in my eyes), they seemed to be there for moral support (and source of information - As was Quistis for sometime and Selphie for a little bit). And by they I mean Lulu. She, to me, seems to be the Quistis of the game.

Quistis and Selphie, as you have stated, really don't have the strong of a role, but neither does Zell or Irvine (but that doesn't mean their development is not there and we aren't speaking about that) They just seem to be there for the main reason Lulu, Rikku, Wakka and Auron were there, to give support to Tidus and Yuna (only those characters we more elaborate)

If you can't tell by now, I'm agreeing with you.


Quistis - Lulu, Selphie to Rikku, Yuna to Rinoa. Only thing is Yuna didn't have that bravado that Rinoa did. Quistis and Lulu have similar characters. So, if that is so, does that mean the FFX also has a cast of female characters that do not play that great of a role and are they outshined by all other characters?

[PhoenixAsh]

I used to think the R=U theory was about 50% true or untrue, but then we got told we weren't allowed to have an opinion so I now back it 100% by protest. The game has a pretty sucky plot without it IMO.

FFX did have pretty useless supporting roles. The difference being that with the exception of Yuna they don't show their weaknesses. Quistis gets demoted and chases Squall around, whereas Lulu is in control despite heavy losses. Selphie falls down in her opening FMV, Rikku shows her potential to control men in hers. Yuna admittedly was pathetic in all departments.

[Besimudo]

It seems that pheonix, wishes to analyse the game in a stimulus, response approach.

The fact is that women for once play a central role in an RPG. You say that I see all these things in FF8 because I like it?? Well explain why I also write for FF7??

I do not like FF7 as it is not the "optimum" in its genre.
Games such as Silent hill play out the whole "psychological" thriller thin much better than FF7; FF7 also has less myth reference (which makes it more palatable for the self proclaimed science freaks i.e. BSc in "new scientist" magazine) than FF8.

I do however write on FF7s religious references. Just as an aside most people go too deep when they claim that Sephiroth was the best boss ever. Clearly, Sephiroth was a pawn in a larger scale "planet driven" scheme to cleans the earth... If you want a real boss its guys like Ring of Reds "Christopher Schringen" who managed to succeed in the long term sales of weapons to divided Japan. Or Dynasty warriors (based on the three kingdoms, old Chinese texts) Sima Yi ... who impressed the dark forces and eventually succeeded in conquering China. Sephiroth was a crap villain he dies in the end...Real villains get away with their plans and landscape the future to serve their ideals. Real villains are the men who succeed, and are considered by the masses as heroes. Real villains are not even considered villains, but more the guys who changed the world, villains challenge the mainstream.

So I think you Phoenix go too far when you say that FF7 had the best villains.

I have proved countless times that women played a tremendous role... And the fact that the men beat them only supports another of my wild theories that Squall and Laguna are the villains of the game who challenge the great Hyne and succeed.... By beating the sorceresses Squall and Laguna create a reality where humans set the scene. Those of you familiar with homers odyssey will notice that all of Squalls trials are similar to those of Odysseus. So in short the fact that the women are beaten by the Men does not kill my argument as the women as still very CRUCIAL to the plot.

Just for clarities sake:
- Women are important stop calling me excessive.
- FF8 has many themes that the mainstream audience miss
- FF7’s villains were unsuccessful, while FF8’s “villains” achieved their humanist utopia.
-FF8 was not intended to be blunt like FF10, if you missed something that’s not my fault.
- I am glad that most people in this forum have contributed and raised additional materials for consideration. Thank you.