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Thread: Why so many women?

  1. #76
    A Big Deal? Recognized Member Big D's Avatar
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    Besimudo, I thought that this had been covered countless times: If someone disagrees with you, that doesn't mean that they're wrong or obtuse or ignorant. Deal.
    It seems that pheonix, wishes to analyse the game in a stimulus, response approach.
    The characters are human; analysing aspects of their humanity is perfectly valid. Stimuli exist in the real world; responses have an effect on the real world. So the stimulus - response approach considers only that which has a tangible, noticeable, relevant effect in the game.
    it (FFVII) is not the "optimum" in its genre.
    Your opinion, not undisputable fact.
    FF7 also has less myth reference (which makes it more palatable for the self proclaimed science freaks i.e. BSc in "new scientist" magazine) than FF8.
    It also makes FFVII more relevant to our own world.
    - FF7’s villains were unsuccessful
    Spoilers!

    Jenova: Virtually decimated the Cetra, caused widespread destruction which was never properly repaired.

    Sephiroth: Summoned the Meteor, began transcending his humanity and attaining a 'Godlike' form. Killed countless innocents, including the last Cetra. Responsible for destruction of Upper Midgar.

    'Unsuccessful' indeed.

    Look at FFVIII's villain: Caused political unrest in a few countries, compressed time for a while.
    Squall and Laguna are the villains of the game who challenge the great Hyne and succeed.... By beating the sorceresses Squall and Laguna create a reality where humans set the scene.
    So... freeing the innocent and stopping brutal dictatorships is a 'villanous' act? The Great Hyne was a deceptive, murderous, slave-driving trickster demon. Ultimecia was prepared to destroy everyone and everything in order to further her own ends. Squall never set out to destroy all Sorceresses; it's simply that his primary target turned out to be a Sorceress.

    As for the role of the women (this thread's real purpose, if I remember rightly)... Phoenix 17's criticism of FFVIII's weak portrayal of women is justified. I may not agree completely, but I understand what he's saying. FFVIII's men rose above their weaknesses for the most part; the women were usually dragged down by their shortcomings.

    Both the men and the women had their individual strengths and weaknesses. Rinoa was a strong woman, but gave in too easily to her desire to rely on Squall. Squall, however, had the detachment and professionalism he needed, but wasn't able to reconcile that with his new-found responsibilities and commitments. I could go on, but others hae said what I think.

    Besimudo, there is such a thing as 'reading too much into a text'. FFVIII's 'meaning' is what the writers intended to give it. I seriously doubt that the following is an accurate transcript of an FFVIII script brainstorming session:

    "Hey, let's make the men the real villains in the infernal struggle against the divine."

    "Cool. We'll give them subtle infernal powers that only intellectuals can perceive. Hyne will be a Judeo-Christian metaphor, only s/he's the real source of power in the game, controlling the Sorceresses from the moon."

    "Funk-ay, dude. And like, Laguna - he kills women with his underworld powers, 'cause he's a symbolic representation of Loki. Squall's gonna be called a 'lone wolf' in the English translation of the instruction manual, which'll be proof that he's the embodiment of Fenrir."

    "Fenrir? That cool-ass Wolf? Good idea."

    ...And so on.

    Heck, I could find mythological references in the Mr Men books if I really wanted. That wouldn't make them superior works of literature (though we all know that they are, anyway), nor would imply any intentional allusion on the part of the writers. It would, however, demonstrate the strength of my imagination and my power to turn the superficial into the overriding.

  2. #77
    I have one matching sock PhoenixAsh's Avatar
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    Big D covered a lot of what I was gonna say so I don't have much to add.

    The fact is that women for once play a central role in an RPG. You say that I see all these things in FF8 because I like it?? Well explain why I also write for FF7??
    Proving yourself wrong before making a comment must set some kind of speed record. Your first sentence higthlights the point I've been making that you tried to disprove.
    FFVIII doesn't have women as central roles. The only main female is the love interest. In FFVII Tifa plays an equally high level role, but hardly classes as the love interest, so it isn't for once. FFVIII is indeed an RPG and women are in it, so that part of the sentence I agree with.

    If you spend any real time in FFVII discussing the villains you might have noticed I probably put Sephiroth down more than anyone in there. Jenova on the other hand is far superior to Ultimecia, and also female.

    Just for clarities sake:
    - Women are important stop calling me excessive.
    - FF8 has many themes that the mainstream audience miss
    - FF7’s villains were unsuccessful, while FF8’s “villains” achieved their humanist utopia.
    -FF8 was not intended to be blunt like FF10, if you missed something that’s not my fault.
    - I am glad that most people in this forum have contributed and raised additional materials for consideration. Thank you.
    1) Women aren't that important, stop being excessive.
    2) Your theory on Squall and Laguna while interesting is way too far above mainstream to seriously consider it that important. It might be true, but it can't have been the focus.
    3) FFVII's villains might have succeeded to an extent, it doesn't wrap the game up like in VIII. On the outside shot that Squall and Laguna were the villains, they failed miserably in that neither women nor sorceresses are extinct by the end.
    4) FFX was pretty deep, though I don't think I've mentioned it other than to give EVIDENCE as to the weakness of women in VIII.
    5) If this is a personal jab at me then you could at least back it up by giving evidence yourself. If not then I agree this thread has been quite interesting.

    I say what I think. If you disagree, then that is up to you.

  3. #78

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    Oh this is sad indeed.

    One could look at Mr.Men or the Smurfs on a higher level because the writers included subtle themes.

    i.e. the smurfs being asexual, and the creation of smurfette as a trick against the smurf world.
    Or ... The Mr. Mens purity of emotion i.e Mr.Men represent single emotions much like Platos forms. Mr.Angry was angry but overcomes this via existentialist metaphors as his soul develops happiness through experience...

    Your arguments are typical of the modern age... Oh you go too deep, or this was not in the game, or where is you evidence.

    Well as we proved the other day that there is actually more proof (genetic verification) that Laguna is Squalls father than there was that Jecht was Tidus father. For all we know Tidus mother like 30% of women may have been impregnated by another guy who was not Jecht.

    What am I saying... Sometimes the most presupposed and obvious things are in fact the least substantiated, often when I say something it rings a familiar bell (for those who managed to see it) Otherwise I receive vehement replies that I am talking rubbish.

    Just because the game tells us something, who is to say that the writers are not out to trick us. Who is to say that simply analysing the game alone is enough.

    As I have said before, if FF8 did not have all these wonderful themes I would not write about it....In fact if this were the case I would be a member of a "konami" or "Sega" based forum discussing Ring of Red and Phantasy star respectively...

    Ill explain a case where people went too far....
    Back in the good old days of high school people were arguing the age of one of the lead characters...However I was absent. The teacher told me that I missed a good debate. I asked what the topic was and upon hearing the nonsense I quickly turned to the page where the book describe (in simple language) the characters age.
    So in a few seconds I killed the popular idiocy that prolonged a needless argument.

    Trust me I do not go too far; once again Big D tries to reduce the argument by insinuating that links and references were created by mere chance. Where is your evidence that it is a translation error. (I know damn well where you are coming from) but you fall victim to the same crime you charge me for.

    Oh and Laguna and Squall are not evil in the "medieval, revived by George W. Bush sense" they are infernal for defying god... I am surprised that you managed to let this slip. Oh well.
    Which Final Fantasy 8 Character Are You? You are Quistis! You're a popular one. Life keeps you busy,
    but you still try to slow down once in a while and enjoy the
    world around you, in spite of how busy you are. You're in good
    shape, and you can't help being a bit of a flirt.


    Take the Final Fantasy 8 Test here!

  4. #79
    A Big Deal? Recognized Member Big D's Avatar
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    Oh this is sad indeed.
    This is the one part of your statement that I agree with.

  5. #80

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    Good old pragmatic Big D... Ever heard of strategic sarcasm... I was merely humouring you.
    Which Final Fantasy 8 Character Are You? You are Quistis! You're a popular one. Life keeps you busy,
    but you still try to slow down once in a while and enjoy the
    world around you, in spite of how busy you are. You're in good
    shape, and you can't help being a bit of a flirt.


    Take the Final Fantasy 8 Test here!

  6. #81
    A Big Deal? Recognized Member Big D's Avatar
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    Default Here we go again...

    Trust me I do not go too far; once again Big D tries to reduce the argument by insinuating that links and references were created by mere chance.
    I'm suggesting that some of the links were created by you. It's well known that works of literature borow from each other; indeed, it's often unavoidable. It stands to reason that some links will creep in.

    Oftentimes, though, links can be seen or created where they cannot be proven to exist as a result of intention.

    As you proved with your 'strategic sarcasm', a reader can infer his or her own 'deeper meanings' from a work, simply by looking for - and analysing - often tangential similarities to pre-existing texts.
    Oh and Laguna and Squall are not evil in the "medieval, revived by George W. Bush sense" they are infernal for defying god... I am surprised that you managed to let this slip. Oh well.
    I knew exactly what you meant, I merely disagreed. You personally described Squall and laguna as "the villains of the game" who "achieved their humanist utopia."
    You implied 'evil' in the contemporary sense.

  7. #82
    I have one matching sock PhoenixAsh's Avatar
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    Besimudo why don't you start defending your arguement instead of it's style? We are perfectly aware of how you argue and that you've read a lot of old stuff.

    If you could give some indication why every single point I've made in this thread about FFVIII is incorrect, and why the women are stronger than in any other FF. I may be wrong, I don't know, but I have given a lot more evidence that females in the game are actually some of the weakest in the series than you have to deny this.

    I am perfectly happy to look beyond the game (albeit in a more creative, less look I read this somewhere else sense), as I've shown in many many other threads where I frequently have to argue with people that something doesn't have to be clearly stated in game. I believe however that this is one of the first times I've spent any time telling people this, whereas you seem to base every post on it.

    I say what I think. If you disagree, then that is up to you.

  8. #83

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    Ok the goal of this post was merely to explore the roles women played in the FF8 world. When you first played the game did it not strike you odd that women had so many power roles in the game? In contrast the only men in power we see early in the game are Head master cid (who is in debt to norg) and general caraway (whose plan fails to stop edea).

    I just thought it was refreshing to see women doing something more substantial than being mere group members. In FF7 sure jenova was powerful, but she is not the "form" of a woman... Yeah sure its female but not a woman in the human sense. As for FF9 we also saw a grotesque woman in power, the Queen was quite disgusting. And finally FF10 the entire Yevon authority were MEN. So in short FF8 seems to be the only FF with a strong Female cast both player and NPC.

    The whole femme idea is strong in FF8 and as I have reiterated it is not due to "sex appeal", these sort of lame arguments are equivalent to... FF7 had a meteor on the front because Armageddon was popular around the same time, and they wanted the west to like it.

    Clearly Meteor is crucial to the plot and what I have contended is that women also play a strong role in the plot of FF8.

    The fact that these people (women) are defeated by the men opens up another theory.. but it does not cheapen their role as you seem to uphold.

    I knew this thread would be controversial as it tickles the same built up resistance as other contemporary issues as "race" and "ethnicity" and in a world where we crave equality (which I support) we find it abrasive to tackle a simple theme like women.
    Which Final Fantasy 8 Character Are You? You are Quistis! You're a popular one. Life keeps you busy,
    but you still try to slow down once in a while and enjoy the
    world around you, in spite of how busy you are. You're in good
    shape, and you can't help being a bit of a flirt.


    Take the Final Fantasy 8 Test here!

  9. #84
    I have one matching sock PhoenixAsh's Avatar
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    I and I'm sure most people in this thread are happy to discuss women, race and ethnicity. I just personally disagree with you.

    Ok the goal of this post was merely to explore the roles women played in the FF8 world. When you first played the game did it not strike you odd that women had so many power roles in the game? In contrast the only men in power we see early in the game are Head master cid (who is in debt to norg) and general caraway (whose plan fails to stop edea).
    Well Norg isn't exactly a girl, and Edea is being controlled by someone else. Quistis is only in power for about an hour. By contrast, Cid, Squall, Caraway, Laguna, Zell, Martine, the guy in charge of FH, Deling and a lot more men are in power.

    I just thought it was refreshing to see women doing something more substantial than being mere group members. In FF7 sure jenova was powerful, but she is not the "form" of a woman... Yeah sure its female but not a woman in the human sense. As for FF9 we also saw a grotesque woman in power, the Queen was quite disgusting. And finally FF10 the entire Yevon authority were MEN. So in short FF8 seems to be the only FF with a strong Female cast both player and NPC.
    Well I'll leave the fact that you left out a severe amount of women for the purpose of making a point and just focus on the handful of people you mentioned.

    Jenova might not be human, but she probably IMO controlled Sephiroth which leaves noone to actually compete meaning that's irrelevant.
    As for Brahne, the last I checked ugly women are still included when it comes to counting people.
    The entire Yevon authority were men, but they were for the most part not human so by your reckoning don't count.

    As I said you ignored most women who were powerful in the other FFs so those arguements were really just to make a point.

    The fact that these people (women) are defeated by the men opens up another theory.. but it does not cheapen their role as you seem to uphold.
    I'd like to know how every woman in the game being overpowered by men doesn't harm your theory that VIII has the strongest females in the series.

    I'm glad your actually discussing the women now though instead of some random topic.

    I say what I think. If you disagree, then that is up to you.

  10. #85
    Gobbledygook! Recognized Member Christmas's Avatar
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    Yes, Adel is very attractive. I wanted to be like her when I hit purberty but I turned out to be NORG.

  11. #86

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    i didnt read the thread but i DO know that girls smell and also have cooties! this does not affect the game in any significant way because the SeeD team are rarely in confined spaces where cooties could spread.

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