The Tides of God

[Besimudo]

The planet when threatened sent forth the Weapons: These artifacts were the final line of justice dispensed on the scourge of humanity. And so Midgar was targeted; the capital of human corruption would be the first to fall. Midgard in Norse myth is the realm between Asgaurd (heven) and Mudspell (Hel's realm, in fact this is where the English word "hell" comes from old Norse). In FF7, Midgar was presented in nightmarish proportions, and as the player was informed Midgar has directly contributed to the demise of the planetary equilibrium. By harvesting mako, Midgar interfered with the natural cycle of the plant...So in return the planet punished Midgar. Contextually this is a metaphor of the biblical myth of Exodus... When Man became sinful and began to entertain infernal knowledge God sent forth the deluge, aiming to reset the world and only those who embraced God's wisdom would survive. The bible describes that the waters sprang forth form the earth (obviously not a normal precipitation induced flood and the weapons similarly were summoned from the earth, they awoke out of the planet) Intentionally, Rufus is immediately sentenced by the weapons, his death demonstrated the fragility of material resources and politics. As the representative of such profane luxuries Rufus was an easy target; amidst the havens, in his all to reminiscently Babel tower like shiRa monolith. Rufus demanded power, he betrayed his father, his actions were driven by greed.. even in his demise, the conceited character shielded his eyes from his fate in undying cowardice. The fact that the weapons targeted midgar, illustrated how mans infernal knowledge will lead to a collapse, whether it be spiritual, intellectual or quite literally physical. Notice the recent explosion in the western world of environmental illnesses (Asthma, Cancer, Stress, Depression). Sure man has tamed nature but now he faces the new challenge of the unseen products evolved in locking nature down. Man dissolved paradise when he embraced knowledge, as the illicit partnership magnifies, knowledge will estrange man from even the swamps and the deserts he created. When man is left with nothing to stand upon, he will draw his final breath.

The theme of rebirth appears widely in Myth and as a matter of fact also is prevalent the Final Fantasy series...beyond coincidental probabilities. The efforts of Aeris ensured the survival of the animal kingdom. This strongly correlates to Noahs assembly of the animals upon the Arc. Aeris followed her inner self, she heard a voice and reacted. So to did Noah, he acted on Gods behalf and ensured survival for those enlightened to Gods word. If man can here God as did Aeris, death becomes no obstacle. Aeris knowingly embraced death as a provision for the infernal regime of sephiroth. And although Sephiroths plan succeeded in annihilating the synthetic "man made" realm; the final scene in FF7 shows that Aeris managed to preserve the pure life forms and thus create the new regime. In an ironical sense the weapons and sephiroth can be identified with the devices of change (the flood) and Aeris is analogous to the Arc...harbouring the pure life blissfully into tomorrow....

[Big D]

The planet when threatened sent forth the Weapons: These artifacts were the final line of justice dispensed on the scourge of humanity.

The Weapons were created to counter the threat of Jenova, a powerful being who came from the sky and used illusion to deceive her foes - a "fallen angel", if you will, albeit an angel of another world. When the Weapons were later re-awoke, they couldn't confront Sephiroth and Jenova due to the protective barrier. They instead turned on Human population centres, not because they were profaned by knowledge or infested with Human life, but because of the Mako reactors - exploitive, labour-saving means of energy production.

The fact that the weapons targeted midgar, illustrated how mans infernal knowledge will lead to a collapse, whether it be spiritual, intellectual or quite literally physical. Notice the recent explosion in the western world of environmental illnesses (Asthma, Cancer, Stress, Depression). Sure man has tamed nature but now he faces the new challenge of the unseen products evolved in locking nature down. Man dissolved paradise when he embraced knowledge, as the illicit partnership magnifies, knowledge will estrange man from even the swamps and the deserts he created. When man is left with nothing to stand upon, he will draw his final breath.

Having knowledge does not cause death, the deliberate misuse or reckless disregard for the consequences of that knowledge are fatal. Knowledge isn't 'infernal', it is natural. Ignorance does not bring one closer to God, it takes one further from a true understanding of the world and its people.

The efforts of Aeris ensured the survival of the animal kingdom.

Aeris' sacrifice was to protect all life; be it plant, animal, or Human. Chiefly, she wanted to preserve the life of the Planet itself, without which everything would die regardless.

And although Sephiroths plan succeeded in annihilating the synthetic "man made" realm; the final scene in FF7 shows that Aeris managed to preserve the pure life forms and thus create the new regime.

Humanity endured, it overcame the terror and destruction wrought by Sephiroth, Jenova and Meteor. The original threat - Shinra - was toppled, helping to secure a more prosperous future. Shinra was 'destroyed' by its own disregard for lfe, for the Planet, and that contributed to its downfall. Shinra's removal paved the way for a more altruistic, 'spiritually' aware society - one with people like AVALANCE and Nanaki at its forefront.

[Besimudo]

mmmm. I believe that the very fact the writers focused of the birds and nanaki and his offspring reinforced the pure natural plan (Eden like) paradise on the planet.
You make an interesting intersection of the weapons and tend to favour “mechanisms” over “purpose”. The weapons appear in FF8 also. This shows that they are some kind of Mythical artifact. The mere fact that they were created does not cheapen these mythical landscape. Simply one can learn the specific mechanisms of an enzyme, yet totally ignore its higher purpose (for example oxyheamgolbinase an enzyme and is a multiple step reaction, comprised of Fe ligands complex and various organic agents...yet this “mechanical” understanding only serves its own ends and is less important than realising that the enzymes “purpose” is to ultimately assist in oxygen transport). A true scholar would know both, and which factor “serves” the other.

One could fairly say that man evolved from apes.. a notion that is scenically supported. BUT when man became man he stopped being an ape. Man is distinct. The weapons are a metaphor for the floods and there purpose is to annihilate the infernal. Amidst all this chaos the cycle of rebirth can occur...and as we see in FF7 it certainly does. Simply explaining this mechanically misses the fact that these events are all interweaved into one another as a universal whole.

The fact that the weapons were attracted to the mako (mechanical) ensured that the cleansing (higher context) was achieved.... I am glad that you have flourished on many of the topics in detail Big D.

But one must recognise that the physical (science, technology... i.e. the description) of what something is tends to be secondary.... but certainly not negligible, to the context of myth.

Basically the story of the rebirth is the essence and FF7 is a way of understanding it in a modern (1990's) frame work. These ideas have circulated mans thought for millennia and FF7 is a very relevant and confronting story which addresses this mythological theme. The plot and it devices resound Exodus.


Anyhow I pray that this rectifies the 10 point damage incurred by that 3 letter Acronym. (Resists from using it).

[Big D]

...they are some kind of Mythical artifact. The mere fact that they were created does not cheapen these mythical landscape.

Quite. FFVII's Weapons were born/created directly from the Planet itself, the source of all life and Lifestream.

The weapons are a metaphor for the floods and there purpose is to annihilate the infernal.

I'm often intrigued by your use of the word 'infernal'... you often seem to equate 'infernalism' with 'Humanism', a comparison I could not find in any dictionaries. If you believe that the Human abandonment of nature in favour of lifeless machinery is 'infernal', then the Weapons' actions match your assesment. However, it's not a fundamental aspect of Human nature to destroy life, or the 'machinery' of life... it's an unfortunate byproduct of some aspects of modern civilisation, something that is limited, and hopefully can be overcome - as indeed it was in FFVII.

I believe that the very fact the writers focused of the birds and nanaki and his offspring reinforced the pure natural plan (Eden like) paradise on the planet...
The fact that the weapons were attracted to the mako (mechanical) ensured that the cleansing (higher context) was achieved

There's definitely a stark contrast between Shinra's Midgar and the 'reclaimed' city seen at the end. Basically, true life has returned to the once barren city. Mako's no longer being extracted and wasted, it's being used for its intended purpose - life.

Cosmo Canyon and its residents - both Humans and Nanaki's kind - are proof that knowledge isn't an infernal force. They pursue the study of life, learning all that can be learned about the Planet, even though they may never finish (similar, I guess, to those who devote their lives to trying to 'understand God' completely), and then the Elders leave that knowledge for future generations. Technology and science go hand-in-hand with spirituality and naturalism, as Bugenhagen demonstrates.

The constructs of Humans and the Planet aren't inherently evil, rather it's their applications that have the potential to cause incomparable suffering. Knowledge alone can dangerous (Hojo, Shinra, Sephiroth, Weapon, etc), but knowledge tempered by wisdom and purpose (Aeris and Cosmo Canyon) is what some might see as the true 'meaning' of life.

[Besimudo]

Oh, when I refer to knowledge as a curse I refer to the kind equated with greed. (as in Eden and the apple)

Knowledge of Astronomy, science, Law, music and art all some form the muses in Greek myth. Therefore the source is higher than man.

Yet politics, greed, power, and betrayl of god word will end in destruction. e.g. Cain and Able, King solomon and the Balble tower... Clearly knowledge is considered bad in these instances.

[Eyece]

My brain hurts



bad.

[Calvin]

Originally posted by Besimudo
Oh, when I refer to knowledge as a curse I refer to the kind equated with greed. (as in Eden and the apple)

But that, like many other things, has a two-pronged effect. Our desire to understand the unknown sometimes surpasses our thoughts of the consequenses. I think the line that divides the "good knowledge" from the "bad knowledge" is capitalism (perhaps not capitalism specifically but monetary wealth in general). When people use knowledge for their own personal gain, a heirarchy forms......with a division of extremely rich and extremely poor. This is Midgar. Whereas, when information and knowledge are used to enlighten humanity, equality is achieved (Cosmo Canyon). In this sense, it seems that Migdar and Cosmo Canyon are opposites of one another. Both cities have prospered, but only one has done it correctly.

[playaGAW]

It all makes sense, but is anybody really right. Will the truth be found?

[Big D]

I personally doubt that there's any clear 'truth' to be found. Each person's answer is the 'truth' to them, they believe whatever they want. It's not really something that can be conclusively proven. Individual opinion is what it really comes down to.

Still, it can be interesting to discuss. In spite of what some people (myself included) may say elsewhere, Besimudo's threads can often prompt a very thought-provoking discussion on many levels.

...Until it starts to get too deep, and we're all left in Eyece's position.

[IamTidus]

Originally posted by Eyece
My brain hurts



bad.

I second that. Ya Know?

[Besimudo]

I cannot see how anyone can deny the theme of death and rebirth. FF7 is quite literal in its imagery and the plot is consistent with the destructive cycle.

One element that screams the obvious is the state of the world before the weapons come.. Perhaps a quick revision of revelations will ring a familiar tone of truth. This is not about opinion, this is just as valid as analysing the "psychology" or the "economics" in the game... And after all this heart ache I can only hope that people can start to realise that a mythological analysis (absolute) is the most enlightening perspective.
The mechanics of the game are easy to dissect, one can comment on the mental condition of Cloud. its so apparent. Yet the myths show themselves symbolically, and most rationalists have loosed this ability to see the higher order of things. (thanks to Darwin).

When we analyse these works we need to look at how they changed our perspective i.e. what had the biggest impact on you. And I can assure myself that everyone deep down (although they may deny it) will have to agree that it was that unsettling revelation along the back of their spine that appealed most. The ephemeral things in FF7 impacted little, it was the deep rooted mythological appeal that made us as humans appreciate the game on that level, which most of us have never been taught how to explain.

"What I teach is so easy to be with and to follow, but nobody ever can."

Lao Tsu

[Big D]

I can only hope that people can start to realise that a mythological analysis (absolute) is the most enlightening perspective.

Once again... this is your OPINION, not a fact. Some would say that analysing the characters and their personalities is the most 'enlightening' viewpoint. I don't agree, but that doesn't make them wrong.

it was the deep rooted mythological appeal that made us as humans appreciate the game on that level

No. Just no. The mythological symbolism and references were interesting to me, and they make for some lively discussion, but it was the game's Human aspect - its statements on life, love, death - which made it appeal to me. If the mythology 'spoke' to you the most, then fine - but that not how it is for everyone.

[Besimudo]

Big D these "human" themes reflect the cycles themselves. You fascination with death and love are only glimpses into the divine nature of all things and the human themes are consistent with what happens to the universe, just on a more familiar wavelength.

In your very noble opinion your preference for these themes, demonstrates that you on a more specific scale agree totally with my contention. So prevent inoculation and resentment you may have carried over from other forums just remember that this is all about the cycles of nature and what you have stated reinforces this assertion. My worry is that you have drawn a subconscious barrier between the human condition and the greater universe as a whole... but this is typical of human arrogance.

Now go read up on Frazer; who identified that life, love, death, rebirth and cycle ( I believe you mentioned some of these aspects) were all important in the human condition as THEY REFLECT THE GREATER CYCLE OF ALL THINGS.

If you were familiar with these scholars you would not be so rash or frivolous in your claims.

[Big D]

Big D these "human" themes reflect the cycles themselves. You fascination with death and love are only glimpses into the divine nature of all things and the human themes are consistent with what happens to the universe, just on a more familiar wavelength.

In your very noble opinion your preference for these themes, demonstrates that you on a more specific scale agree totally with my contention.

I knew you were going to say that, or something very similar. When I appraised the Human elements of FFVII's story, I examined them in their Human context.

Now go read up on Frazer; who identified that life, love, death, rebirth and cycle ( I believe you mentioned some of these aspects) were all important in the human condition as THEY REFLECT THE GREATER CYCLE OF ALL THINGS.

I know that they're part of the greater whole. I also recognise that they're concepts with considerable Human significance. It could be argued that everything is a part of the greater cycle, that there's no such thing as a 'humanistic' perspective since every assesment is inherently examining some part of the 'big picture'.

It's possible to look at a work's Human values without detracting from, or devaluing its superhuman components.

If you were familiar with these scholars you would not be so rash or frivolous in your claims.

You have read the warning about flaming, haven't you? Please, pay heed.

It's possible for a theme - such as love or death - to be significant on a Human level and spiritual level. I feel that the Human level is more important for me (since that's what I am, as far as I know), but I'm also allowed to ponder the other aspect of it.

It's all about personal priorities and personal opinions, not whose worldview is superior or inferior.

[Besimudo]

Yes but the reason you can appreaciate these themes is because they remind you of the divine on a sub level.