R=U? What are you people talking about?

[Rand Al'Tor]

One: Edea knew about the rest of Ultimecia's plans, her personality and some details about her life.

True, but if we say that Ultimecia herself has forgotten about being Rinoa (most likey as she doesn't recognise them) then she can't betray to Edea what she doesn't remember can she?

Two: She'd have a tough time not hinting at it, even unconsciously. She might have been reluctant to help Rinoa get to Esthar to find treatment when she was in a coma, she'd certainly have been very cautious around Rinoa later, rather than just giving a few words of advice. As for fate... the future is malleable, some believe. Prior knowledge could potentially be used to change the future and prevent a tragedy, although the subtleties of temporal mechanics are open to debate.

Consider that these are 'the fated children' I very much doubt so. Edea would know (from Ulti) that Rinoa would have to be there in the final battle (since Ulti recognises them as 'the ones destined to face her' (and tries to cut that destiny short') Besides, Rinoa hasn't actually DOEN anything bad, so I don't think Edea would actively let her die, though she DOES try to prevent her from going evil. (Telling her to keep a knight)

Hootenanny

The idea is that using GF's has eroded Ulti/Rinoa's memory to the point of not recognising them.

Oh, and regarding the paradox things... (nobody mentioned it, but I\m trying to be ahead of you)

Rinoa killing Ulti gives no problems. That's a case of the grandmother killing the granddaughter. It just means you just sealed your own death date.

Ulti killing Rinoa would indeed give problems. Luckily, people only fall KO in battle. But hey, what if everyone loses? Well, since that's a Game over, you can wonder whether you should take that into account. Can such a thing happen in a world with fate. In any case, if Ulkti would actually kill Rinoa, ulti would seriously mess up the fabric of space and time...

...

Wait... that was what she was DOING all along wasn't it? In between the compressing of all time into a single point, what's one little paradox after all? And in ANY game with time travel, you KNOW you're gonna have stuff like thst. Just like Chrono Trigger.

[HOOTERS]

So let me get this straight, at the time of the final battle, Ultimicea has already done all this before but as Rinoa helping Squall and the others to kill herself, but she doesn't remember any of this because of the erosion of her memory due to GFs. So if she cant remember any of this taking place, she must also not remember Squall, so how does she remember where Squall told them to meet when she built her fortress there?

...and I thought Back to the Future 2 was complicated.

[PhoenixAsh]

Hootenany both Griever and the castle would probably have come well before Rinoa's memory faded. As her memory is the reason for Griever, I imagine he probably started off looking a little friendlier but that's just me.

As for Rand Al'Tor's points about deaths in the final battle, the entire party can die in just the same way Laguna and Co. can (I think, don't remember if I've lost with them). They shouldn't be able to, but there's evidence in the game that they can. Everything else was true.

Big D Edea didn't actually know Rinoa very well, she wasn't at the orphanage, and isn't even concious until well after they've both left Esthar. So a flash of a twisted, evil of person who's lost their memories is unlikely to make her leap to the conclusion.

[Rand Al'Tor]

Hootenanny.

Regarding the 'why does she build it right there'things?

(romantic mode) in her hearts of hearts, she remembered she was waiting for someone there

Actually, in a rather twisted way, she WAS waiting for him right there... (No, not like she KNEW it, but there's a dramatic irony in it)

And this stuff is what you get with time travelling...

edit: I think that we could say that the 'physics'of FFVIII are that altering the course of time is not possible. Ellone and Ultimecia both tried, and both failed (Ellone attempted to have Laguna be in Winhill when Squall was born, Ultimecia wanted to stop the flow of time completely) , to fight fate. Of course, making it IMPOSSIBLE for you to lose makes a bad game. And as Phoenix mentioned (trout, why did I never think of that?) a game over during Laguna flash backs leads as much to a paradox as a Rinoa dies at Ulti's hands game over.

[HOOTERS]

Surely fighting against your younger self, your love, your childhood friends and your dog would bring back some memories. Not to mention every time you looked in the mirror you'd see the evil sorceress you once defeated.

[Rand Al'Tor]

Nope, Gf's can be troublesome like that. After all, Zell, Quistis, Selphie, Seifer and Squall didn't recognise each other as coming from the orphanage. Nor did they remember the Matron. And a powerful GF as Griever might further destroy those memories.

And if Rinoa IS Ultimecia that DOES mean she has lived quite some years... multiple generations from the future and all that. No, it has never been conclusively proven that Sorceresses can live longer then others, but not disproven either, and when we're talking divine powers (Sorceress powers come from Hyne) these things aren't self evident I would say.

[Big D]

Well, GF amnesia can't be that bad. All the characters recovered their memories when they were prompted by Irvine and each other, so my theory is that GFs merely suppress memories while they're being junctioned.

I've never had a magical spirit living in my brain, yet I too have difficulty remembering anyone from my kindergarten. Some things simply fade over time.

Hooteneanny has made some good points, in my opinion.

Originally posted byRand Al'Tor
I think that we could say that the 'physics'of FFVIII are that altering the course of time is not possible. Ellone and Ultimecia both tried, and both failed (Ellone attempted to have Laguna be in Winhill when Squall was born, Ultimecia wanted to stop the flow of time completely) , to fight fate. Of course, making it IMPOSSIBLE for you to lose makes a bad game. And as Phoenix mentioned (trout, why did I never think of that?) a game over during Laguna flash backs leads as much to a paradox as a Rinoa dies at Ulti's hands game over.

Time is very flexible in FFVIII. When Ellone projected Squall and co into the minds of Kiros, Ward and Laguna, history was altered quite considerably. All of the magic and GFs from the future became available to those three in the past; they were stronger in battle, and their actions and decision were affected accordingly. These changed were slight, but they were changes nonetheless.

Not to mention Time Compression itself, which is a pretty profound alteration.

Oh, well done to everyone for remaining civil. Keep it up!

[PhoenixAsh]

Actually time isn't altered by that. Laguna and co. had the powers when they went through it. It just happened that effect preceded cause in this case.

While all of Hootenany's points were indeed reasonable, only one can only be argued through speculation that I can see.
That being why doesn't Rinoa realise. Well she's had a lot longer to forget, her mind has been warped by magic, and it took Squall and co. a hell of a long time and someone there to tell them before they remembered.

Actually two if you count remembering the place, but that just gets explained with the R=U theory if looked at from start to finish.

[Advent Child]

Originally posted by Prodigy
I don't see why people weren't able to have mature discussions about this in the first place. Surely most of us are adults here?

because everyone has thier own side and few people know how to properly argue and just restate thier comments and add insults to make it seem like they have more arguements. also it's a pointless thing to discuss anyways because even if you are able to conclusively prove it (which you aren't so people will ALWAYS disagree and cause arguements with the same evidence presented again [see above] ) then all that'll happen is you'll say "Hm. So 'r' *IS* 'u'. Neat." and that'll be that. why bother?

[Rand Al'Tor]

Well, GF amnesia can't be that bad. All the characters recovered their memories when they were prompted by Irvine and each other, so my theory is that GFs merely suppress memories while they're being junctioned.

I've never had a magical spirit living in my brain, yet I too have difficulty remembering anyone from my kindergarten. Some things simply fade over time.

True, but if Ulti has been Rinoa, she has probably used GF's for a long, loooong time.

Time is very flexible in FFVIII. When Ellone projected Squall and co into the minds of Kiros, Ward and Laguna, history was altered quite considerably. All of the magic and GFs from the future became available to those three in the past; they were stronger in battle, and their actions and decision were affected accordingly. These changed were slight, but they were changes nonetheless.

As PhoenixAsh said. It's questionable that those WERE changes. Was Ellone's attempts to cheat fate by sending them back not fated as well? And did not Laguna and such have 'the Faeries'in their head 'from the start'? Either that or the only changes you can do ARE minor changes. Ellone seems to have given up on changing the past anyway.

Not to mention Time Compression itself, which is a pretty profound alteration

.And Time compression would indeed have been quite an alteration. It failed too.

[Big D]

...You might want to edit that post so that it's a little easier to read and understand...

Altering the past is altering the past, whether it's fated or not, whether it's major or not. Laguna never had any GFs originally; every time he used one of Squall's summon spells, events in the past were changed. Time Compression succeeded enough to allow Squall and co to pass into the future, thus proving that events can be altered from what they're 'meant to be'.

[Rand Al'Tor]

...You might want to edit that post so that it's a little easier to read and understand...

Whoops... *gets to work*

Altering the past is altering the past, whether it's fated or not, whether it's major or not. Laguna never had any GFs originally; every time he used one of Squall's summon spells, events in the past were changed. Time Compression succeeded enough to allow Squall and co to pass into the future, thus proving that events can be altered from what they're 'meant to be'.

My point would be that Laguna had those faeries in his head from the beginning. Heck, one might say it wasn't possible for Laguna to SURVIVE everything that happened to him without Squall and co. So it's the classical case that when you try to alter the past, you are in fact just making sure it happens exactly as it was supposed to be, because even your attempt to cheat fate was fated. Squall aided Laguna, there never WAS a time when Laguna didn't have the faeries helping him out. Ellone didn't change anything.

What was meant to be then? Ultimecia emntions (while in Edea form) that'the fated children are the one destined to face her'. And lo and behold, they do later on. Ultimecia was the one trying to alter the past (the one where the fated children dissappear from their time and return victorious, as in the ending movie) and she fails. The fated children never messed with fate. They did exactly as Ultimecia had known they would. After all, in the óriginal'timetable the fated children must have one, because if not, there'd be no timetable, as time would have been compressed, and the years between them wouldn't exist.

[Montoya]

If Rinoa did forget who she was, how come she called herself Ultimecia all of a sudden?

[Rand Al'Tor]

well...if she'd have forgotten even her name (and who knows what prolonged GF exposure might do, Squall and co are still pretty young) she'd need a new name. Considering she plans to be the ultimate and final Sorceress, I guess Ultimecia has a ring to it.

[PhoenixAsh]

Look at the alternative. You really think someone named a baby Ultimecia? The name itself is a clue to R=U in this way, albeit a small and pretty irrelevant one.