R=U? What are you people talking about?

[edczxcvbnm]

Okay...I have NEVER heard of this theory before. Could someone please explain it to me....or something about why she is or why she isn't equal to U?

[Big Ogre Umaro]

You've never heard of it because the NAZI REICH^3 ADMINISTRATION OF THIS BOARD is trying to HIDE THE TRUTH!! They don't want us to know that R equals U, because then we'll have knowledge, and with knowledge comes power, and they're so drunk with their own power that they don't want anyone to have even a little bit more! DOWN WITH THE MODS!!!

[crono_logical]

When this becomes a flame war, it's getting closed It's only about saying what it is/isn't to teach ed, I'm sure he's intelligent enough to decide for himself which side he thinks is right once he know's what they are and won't need your endless bickering over it to say which ones correct for sure

[TheAbominatrix]

At this very moment, the Cid's Knights are invading Bou's home to torture and deprogram him. Tomorrow we will have a new and lobotomized Bou.

[Prodigy]

I don't see why people weren't able to have mature discussions about this in the first place. Surely most of us are adults here?

Maybe not.

Anyway, some people seem to think that there is a lot of evidence to support the theory that Rinoa actually goes on to become Ultimecia.
If you do a google search for the theory you'll find their reasons.
To be honest I think that they're pretty far fetched and don't really follow but people like to persist with the theory because they feel it patches an otherwise gaping hole.

I don't think it's a gaping hole, more of a "have whatever you want happen" situation.

Square are great like that and I think the plot to FF8 is complete and makes sense without any R=U.

[TheAbominatrix]

http://www.nanatsusaya.net/rinoa/ultimecia.html

Here's an site with an explination to save the rest of you the footwork.

[PhoenixAsh]

There is a lot of evidence that hints at it. The reason I believe it though is simply the lack of other sensible options.

Griever has no decent explanation, not one that doesn't require huge theories being created anyway. There's a lot of foreshadowing too, and R=U fits very well when looking at Sorceresses going bad without knights, something to do with feathers, the theme of fate, a load of things that I've forgotten since it got banned.

It's never been proved correct, it just fills in holes, and I'd say is about 50% probable, I like the theory because FFVIII is too simple without it.

The other support is that it never gets any reasonable counter arguements. All the arguements I've heard either go directly against things said or shown in the game, or just go straight against common sense (how can Ultimecia die and Rinoa not for example, which goes against basic logic).


I know that doesn't explain the theory, I just thought I'd explain a biut about how previous debates go.

[Erdrick Holmes]

¤ The Rinoa = Ultimecia Theory ¤


I know what you're thinking. "How is it possible that Ultimecia and Rinoa are the same person? No way, you're crazy!" But the idea is an interesting, complicated, and very possible theory. Keep an open mind, and think about it.

The Main Point?
Ultimecia is the future Rinoa. Rinoa grows up to become Ultimecia. When Rinoa is older, some great tragedy could occur that deeply affects Rinoa and changes her slowly. This could be the death of Squall (or other loved ones) or some other disaster that happens in the FF8 world. Slowly over time, she grows more depressed, and her sorceress powers feed the dark sadness inside of her. Her sorceress powers prevent her from dying naturally and continues to live for eons alone. Eventually, gripping on the brink of insanity, she becomes Ultimecia. This would explain why Squall shows up in the game Kingdom Hearts without his love Rinoa, perhaps they were seperated.

Ultimecia's intentions?
Ultimecia/Rinoa wants to go back to the good ol times. Before tragedy would strike her, when she she was with her friends during the timeline of FF8. So she dedicates herself to going back in time. Maybe she wants to prevent the disaster that will happen, or to warn the young Rinoa of the future. Regardless, because of the long, sad evolution from Rinoa into the cold-hearted Ultimecia, she's messed up by the time she accomplishes time travel. Thus doing more evil when she gets there, than good.

Evidence?
One, Squall's ring Griever and Ultimecia's summon Griever. Coincidence that they're both the same name, and that the game put an emphasis on naming Griever? I think not. Ultimecia named her summon Griever as it was one of the memories of her past life as Rinoa. Two, they're both sorceresses. That's not a common power identity to have, sorceresses are rare. Three, Rinoa's symbol if white angel wings and Ultimecia has black angel wings. Black wings are the symbol for fallen angels, just like how Rinoa has fallen from pure white wings, to darker ones. Four, Ultimecia's castle is located near the same place as Rinoa's "Promise" flower field. The love Rinoa felt for Squall led Ultimecia back to the place she made a promise. See, she did wait for him there.

But Rinoa is good and Ulti is evil, right?
Like Squall says, "There's no right or wrong. Just two sides with different views." Anyway, anyone can attest to the fact that PEOPLE CHANGE over time. Can you honestly say you haven't changed at all during your lifetime? Most likely, in the past years, you do things you never thought you would've done years ago. Humans change constantly. Now factor in that Rinoa is leading an extraordinary life. She's in a fantasy world with lots of adventure, drama, emotions, and powers. As sad as it is to think angel Rinoa could become evil Ultimecia, remember: People change.

Why Kill SeeDs?
Obviously, after all those lonely eras of turning into Ultimecia could easily drive Ulti/Rinoa to insanity. Power corrupts. And it's quite possible she's lost it to the point where her conscious can't even recognize her friends anymore. Or maybe we dont give Ulti enough credit. SHe could've known all along how this would play out. She always said that a SeeD was prophesize to destroy her. Ulti/Rinoa knew her attempts to kill the SeeDs would bring everyone together, and did it to bring about the good relationships that resulted from her war. Deep down in her subconscious, she knew she would die. Even while her evil outside was being.. well, evil. Or maybe she wanted to kill Rinoa because she didn't want her to go through the pain she would, Ulti/Rinoa wanted to end her own life. Or she wanted to take over the world to be in control, she bad things wouldn't happen. After being unable to prevent bad things around her for so long, Ulti/Rinoa would think of such a thing.

There are many possibilities in the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory. Squaresoft left so many open ends in the story, we can only begin to imagine.

*copies from nanatsusaya.net*

This makes perfect sence but here's my theroy

Because of Ulimecia becoming more evil and corrupt and if the R=U theory is correct then my guess would be that there is some other dark force that is possibly turning Rinoa into an evil sorceress. I'd have to say that the Great Hyne (the creator of mankind in the game) might be to them as god is to us in reality and whenever there is a god there is devil, so there must be some kind of evil enitity that is sorta the opposite of Hyne and also if you noticed in the middle of disc three they state that Rinoa is a decendant of the Great Hyne. It's just a thought.

Oh Ed you shoulda slapped a big spoiler warning here.

[PhoenixAsh]

Just to add to that there was a lot of talking in Edeas's house about Squall killing Rinoa, Sorceresses without knights becoming evil, Ultimecia probably doesn't have a knight.

It also can be safely assumed Ultimecia was not given that name as a child, and didn't look like that to begin. Both Edea and Adel look different (presumably due to their powers), I don't see why Rinoa should stay the same.

Buffy Season 6 explains how this can work believably, but if you haven't seen it it still makes sense.

[Erdrick Holmes]

I'd guess that when Rinoa became Ultimecia she prolly game up her old past and gave up here birthname and her real identity. I still think that my Great Hyne opposite theroy may have to do with Rinoa turning evil. She may have gotten possessed by the Hyne opposite which created an evil sorceress because Hyne created sorcs. and possible the Hyne opposite created evil ones also.

[Xu]

mmm... there is some solid evidence of R=U INSIDE the game?

crazy theory: U=Rinoa and Squall daugther

[Tears of Stardust]

Well, I personally don't believe in the theory, but I'm glad that this site makes better arguments than the first popular R=U site *shudders at the memory* Anyway, I think that you people need to calm down a little.

First thing I would like to say: Ultimecia has wings. Rinoa has wings. No. Rinoa's limit break involves her getting wings from her influx of killing adrenaline (or however you want to word "limit break") and she has wings on the back of shirt, but Rinoa Heartilly doesn't have wings. Do you see her flying around everywhere in FF8? No.

Second: It mentions somewhere in the game (sometime whilst talking to Edea; when I get the quote I'll post it) that there are other sorceress' in their time, the game only happens to focus on four of them, and that they usually hide their powers.

Third: Griever's name, although it is the name of Squall's ring, doesn't mean a lot. What if there was a GF hidden inside of it, much like Doomtrain's ring, and they discovered a GF and named it Griever because of the name of Squall's ring? If Rinoa can remember a little detail like the ring's name throughout time, then I think even a GF could remain for many years into the future.

But personally, the main reason why I think that R = U isn't true, is the fact that people are trying to find something that isn't there. In the words of Freud: sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[PhoenixAsh]

First: Rinoa CAN grow wings and has them on her clothes. I think she might be able to keep them if she changes, given only two characters in the game relate to wings at all it seems a fairly big coincidence.

Second: Other sorceresses are around, great, doesn't really mean anything though.

Third: That is a HUGE coincidence, which needs to be explained. R=U is a way to do so and it also ties other things up, whilst adding to the story.


Xu the evidence is mainly what we have given, they're just hints, but they add up. Griever needs to be explained this is a way, Ultimecia needs to be explained this is a way, the foreshadowing needs to be explained this is a way.
Destiny is a huge part of the game, and it focuses on the main characters. The only one that it doesn't focus on is Rinoa, this covers that too.

[Erdrick Holmes]

If you look on ther back of her dress she has an angel wing pattern on it, she uses them for a limit break.

[Shockwave Pulsar]

The same ones that fade to black in the final FMV.