R=U?

[Besimudo]

Yes this is more interesting than the "cloned" baddies we see in other FF titles. Is there really any difference between Sephiroth, Kuja or Seymour?

I mean as soon as I saw Seymour putting on his

"I am a typical Japanese articulating villain, with long hair and androgenous looks"

My reaction was... Here we go again, the fact the player was forced to fight these drop kicks over and over was insulting..


At least FF8 had an interesting villain, who attracts decent intelligent discussion.

[Demandred]

Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
Well I'm not defending it in here because there's a perfectly good thread for that, but I might as well back up my point.



There is evidence, you just don't accept it. So given there IS evidence and you have dismissed it you can't have considered believing in it. So none of that sentence is true.



It's based on explaining many things in the game that don't make sense without some kind of theory. Even if the first half of your sentence was true, noone is forcing you to call it garbage so that is also innacurate.


That was all you said so I stand by my statement.

Except it's NOT evidence because it's based on assumptions of little things throughout the game. It's a theory. The game doesn't develop the theory. It DOES provide little things that can be used to create the R=U theory, but it does not develop them. The "evidence" IMO is something that has been stretched so far it's ridiculous. Since the game neither concludes that the R=U theory is true, nor does it say it's wrong you are not right and neither am I. The only people who can actually confirm or disprove the R=U theory as those at Square, and I believe there was a website, or something out there where they had declared it innaccurate, however, without the link that obviously holds no merit so I won't even use it to defend myself.

Secondly, like I stated above, since the game doesn't state, or even develop the R=U theory in any way I don't have to accept it because I don't see the logic in it. At least with Squall and Laguna there are hints of their relationship throughout the game. I may as well say that Irvine and Selphie are Ultimecia if I'm going to believe the R = U theory because there's about as much backing that up.

[PhoenixAsh]

Enough. I've said I'm not argueing the theory in here as it's been specifically said not to. If you want to try and undermine it do it in the right thread I don't wanna be responsible for it being banned again.

Besimudo I agree with the exception of Sephiroth/Jenova which was just as, if not more interesting than R=U. Without R=U however, Ulti sucks.

[Besimudo]

Yes, yes the sepi / jenova was a bit forced...much like Jecht / Sin ... the game bluntly gave their personal details away, in text, and transformations.

R=U is more subliminal, like Macbeth and the 3rd murderer, these themes go over many peoples heads...and this is one indication of the level of the messages.

[PhoenixAsh]

Then explain all the people who rave about how much Sephiroth rocks.

[Big D]

Aren't you always complaining about FFVII vs FFVIII threads, PhoenixAsh?

I'll close this unless someone can contribute something - like, for instance, if Demandred can find the link to the site he mentioned.

[PhoenixAsh]

I don't complain about VII versus VIII threads. I complain about Besimudo referencing them because he always starts them. Course thats all in fun as I enjoy Besimudo's posts. I wouldn't risk actual complaints in an R=U thread .

Why close the thread though? We aren't debating R=U, we're discussing the theory in context with the fans and other games. Seems fairly on topic to me.

The other thread here lists most of the points to R=U, so if anyone needs info on the theory they can just go there. It probably covers more than most sites.

[Besimudo]

Yes I agree with phoenix...we are just pointing out why we like the various games based on the themes that appeal to us.

If I want to call FF7s boss a punce in the same league as FF9 & 10 (gee odd that, as soon as the FF8 development team left Square for Namco FF9 went back to the old sephiroth style baddie, named Kuja).....

Or if phoenix wished to point out how much of an anti climax Ulti was, that is fine. Or the fact that the sorcs were a bit lame...thats good too. I personally would have rathered see a war between Esthar and Galbadia where Rinoa and Squall died...SO the fathers essentially kill their children. Ulti seemed
like a last ditch effort!

As for U=R how do you account for Ultis German accent?

...E.g. Krush the SeeDs

Did rinoa buy German in three months from a disintegrating book store after time compression?....

[Big D]

Starting words with a 'K' instead of a 'C' isn't meant to sound German, it's simply how evil people speak. Always.

[PhoenixAsh]

It's getting pretty unfair that people try to put down the theory in here talking to me, when I've said several times I'm not gonna argue it in this thread. There's another perfectly good thread somewhere on here.

Nice thought about that was though Besimudo, but don't you think Rinoa being the bad guy is just as cool as the fathers doing it? Less tragic, but more irony I'd say.

[Besimudo]

That is a question of debate!

Rinoa technically represents the natural order, while Squall is humanism (along with Laguna).

It was preordained that the great Hynes descendents were to rule man kind...and as we witness in today’s world individuals have replaced the holy regents (I admit that some rulers are the destructive form of the divine (luciferin) e.g. Genghis Khan). Laguna represents the modern humanism replacing the traditionally ordained ruler. The fact that the people feel that Laguna is better than Adel, reasserts his image as a manifestation of the anti-Christ. So Hyne sends an Armageddon, which was ordained to destroy the secular Esthar just as it did Centra.

So pheonix in a way Rinoa is actually the good guy being defeated by squall.

When I first played it I thought that Ultimecia was a descendent of Rinoa.. but not Rinoa herself. It made little sense why Rinoa would possess herself in the past only to have herself die in space... If Ulti had forgotten about Squall then how would she know that Squall would come to her rescue? Or here is the catch…she wanted to die so that Adel would be free to complete time compression, rather than Rinoa/ ulti who would loose in the future to Squall?

This debate is starting to sound like the old…Is Deckard from Blade runner a replicant? There is as much evidence for as there is against, I guess we will never know.

Phoenix, I have talked with a lot of FF players and they believe that the Ulti ending was a bit lame. Many have dreamt of a full scale war where one of the leads died. My choice is Rinoa and Squall for that Romeo and Juliet element….

Ahhh Big D.. As you know pop American kulture insists that if you vant a German sounding Kolonel (Herzog) Klinck type baddie give em a K instead of a C... This also inclinated Ulti with Dr. Odine (those mechanical Germans) This is based on the sound and the fact The Capital in German is Das Kapital... As you may know being a student of German.

[PhoenixAsh]

I'm not discussing the theory itself here, but I will say that I consider Rinoa being left in space evidence for the theory more than against it. But that's another issue.

While I see your point, I don't think being a god/ servant of god qualifies you as good by a long way. I still think on a personal level Rinoa dieing by Squall's blade adds a lot to the story.

A full scale war would have been fun to watch though kinda pointless. At the time of hostilty in each country they were effectively being run by the same person.

I wouldn't say there is as much evidence as there is for as against. There is no evidence against it, apart from it isn't directly said. I do however consider the theory about 50/50 in likelyhood.

[Besimudo]

Phoenix.. often it is the things that are not said that make the most impact. Words are trivial and often meaningless. Communication is important in human civilisation, but for the most spectacular moments and as a matter of fact our most traumatic moments...words tend to only do harm.

I think that when the author has to explicitly state themes he does himself no credit by assuming that the reader is a dim-wit.

If you rely on blunt explanations…. i.e. So Jecht is Sin and My father (FF10 style)

This would be like…
Squall: gee I am glad the mission is over.

Rinoa: Yeah It turned out that I was Ultimecia, but I didn’t know it

Zell: Its called Schizophrenia.. the game didn’t even really happen.

Squall: (shut up Zell)

Selphie: Yeah we have no imagination…this whole story was just a few university student pulling cones.

Zell: Yeah and then Squall started raving about some flying place called the Garden…whoa. What a trip.

Squall: yeah then I can remember making out with Rinoa, it felt like I was on a space ship.

Rinoa: I don’t recall that, All I remember is beating you off with a stick, then you pulled another cone.

Selphie: Yeah then Rinoas Schizophrenia kicked in due to the Amsterdam hash and she started calling herself Unltimecia .

Zell: So that explains it Rinoa was Ultimecia!!

Irvine: I haven’t said my bit yet, but yes she definitely was Ulti…

Quistis: mmm Squall….

FIN.

Do we need an overt and rational explanation for everything?? As you can see I do not hold "fan Fiction" in very high esteem either.

[PhoenixAsh]

I vaguely see you're point, but I'm not really sure what it was argueing. I'm a supporter of R=U.

Unless that was about there not having to be a reason for two countries to go to war, which although is kinda appropriate right now it is somewhat less believable in fiction than reality.

[Rand Al'Tor]

Well, I guess they could have dropped a little more hints. perhaps have Squall, after the kiss have a flashback of his blade cutting Ultimecia and have that smile of his waver for a moment as he looks at the wings on Rinoa's back as he hugs her. But then, maybe subtle is nice for a change. To each their own.

And not hold fanfiction in high esteem. I mean, if you only check Fanfiction.net ... okay... but I've seen some very GOOD fanfic outthere. And written... passable fanfic myself.