Name change

[PhoenixAsh]

Me

Besimudo you started most if not all of the recent occurances of this that I've seen. (FFVII/FFVIII debates)
I have asked you many times to justify your belief that FFVIII is somehow intellectually superior to the rest with out comparing it to something else and ignoring the games content, you have yet to attempt this ever.

Besimudo

If Squall is 2-D compared with Cloud; then explain why Squalls plot implications are metaphysical (classical god defying hero), while Clouds are material (mental break down, sinister cloning experiments). I think we can agree that FF7 draws from Metropolis and Frankenstein, whereas FF8 draws from The Odyssey. In FF7 themes have physical origins, Jenova (aliens) while in FF8 themes have mythical origins, sorceress (god)… Also the fact that FF7s themes are understood by more of the population is more than enough proof that FF8 is the “higher” of the two.

Were you intentionally doing everything I said or are you just predictable?
FFVII's themes are some of the least understood in the series. Hell even if you don't dig underneath the main plot is hard to grasp.
FFVIII had the most two-dimensional characters in all the recent series so far, it had the simplest plot, it had probably the least imaginative battle system (though it's one of my favourates). Just because it might have ripped off some book that most gamers never read doesn't make it clever.

[Big D]

PhoenixAsh makes several good points.

It doesn't prove much simply to say "FFVIII is intellectually superior, because it has divine themes, because divine themes are inherently superior, because they're divine, which makes them superior."

It's something of a matter of opinion... Humanistic themes are considered 'superior' by some because they examine aspects of who and what we are, as opposed to "higher" themes which serve to remind us of old stores, but tell us little of relevance to ourselves.

I could not help but notice the “anti ff8” sentiment emerging in this thread.

Maybe people don't share your opinion of FFVIII; that's entirely up to them. Just because they like it less doesn't mean that they hate it completely. Constructive criticism is a good way of looking at a game. I, for one, particularly enjoy both FFVIII and IX, though I've been openly critical of certain elements of them both.

[Wightraven]

OK, I took my break for flaming that person about FF7 Big Brother to calm down. Now I shall debate.

*twitches fingers*

First off, I'd like to say I back the fact that FFVIII is 2-D and FFVII is rather deep. Not because I don't understand one or the other, and not because I can't make any litereary correlations (though I don't, as that's just something I don't do), but because it's reinforced by the sheer presentation of the characters and plot.

The only dynamic characters in FFVIII were Squall and Edea, and they weren't all that dynamic. Squall became a TAD bit softer, and Edea became good again. That's it.

Now, if you'll look at FFVII (which I'm only using as an example as it's what's been brought up thus far) most of the characters grow and change. You'll notice Cloud goes from being an apathetic hardass to being softer, kinder, and nicer. Reverting to the way he was before his memory was shot to hell. Yes, that's just one example, but look at most of the characters in FFVII and the proof will show through, unless you're blind.

As Big D mentioned, saying FFVIII is greater because it deals with Gods is ludicrous. More ludicrous, in fact, is the idea that the Sorceresses were meant to represent Gods. Sorceresses, in my opinion, are meant to represent... let's see... SORCERESSES. Haven't you played enough FF to know that if someone is supposed to be a diety, they are?

You're reading WAY too much into it. This conversation boils down to something very trivial (the quality of FFVIII) once you tear away all the literary troute. What does it matter if FFVII is like Frankenstien, or if FFVIII is like the Odyssey (what the hell? where'd you even get this idea? A man goes off to battle, then has to find his way home while going through various trials is JUST like some kid going off to wander the world and conquer the bad guys, then face time compression. Yup. *sarcasm*), or FFIX is reminiscent of the works of HCA?

That wasn't rhetorical, by the way, explain to me why that's so important.

[Rand Al'Tor]

Well at least the place livens up again eh? Anyway.... SPOILER WARNING FOR FFVII AND VIII, because I don't feel like marking EVERY little part.


Again, SPOILER WARNING FOR FFVII and VIII


Lessee, first, I would agree that FFVII is NOT superficial. Cloud's mental problems aren't just 'him being screwed up in the head, it's also him forsaking his own identity for an ideal (first Sephiroth by leaving the village, and then Zack, quite literarely) and how he loses his own self-value because of that, especially when the mask is torn off. Pretty valuable lesson, and I've seen it used pretty well in fanfiction. On a more 'cosmological' level, there's the whole question about the needs of the Planet versus the need of Humanity. We don't know at the end if (SPOILER) humanity survived But the Planet itself is clearly shown as being indifferent to good and evil. The Lifestream (Planet) and Holy (which we'll say is 'good') are two different things. When it comes to 'meaningful inner message' I think VII and VIII are evenly matched.

Of course, some of us don't play for the deep meaningful message. And that is not necessarely bad. Computer games must sell, and I very much doubt Squaresoft will put the message of their game ahead of making money.

Now something I DO have to object to, is the supposed flatness of the characters. Mostly, because those characters are the main reason FFVIII is my favourite. I'll admit that, even WITH the R=U theory, purely on plot, and how it is brought, FFVII has the edge. FFVIII has some pretty dead moments and some rather silly things (yay, we're all from the same orphanage) and lacks the twists (When the REAL Cloud took off his helmet, genius) when it comes to characters, to me, FFVIII falls short.

Sure, they've got great backgound stories. But background stories fall under 'plot' And yes, the FFVII characters all have their chances to 'devellop' Problem for me is... they're cool alright, they look really cool... but they just don't live. And they hardly interact. I've get the impression that I have just a bunch of (nicely crafted) 'heroes', each with their designated spotlight time to uncover their background and Great Personal Tragedy, after which they just go further. Sure, they change, but it seems so... fake.... artificial to me. And they only seem to come up at the right 'scene'

FFVIII came across as a group of people, each with their own small sides, living together, reacting to each other, liking, loving and sometimes resenting each other. Sure, their background isn't as well crafted as the VII characters. And no, there is no real point where you can say 'here they changed in a deep and meaningul way for the rest of their lives' But does it work that way in real life? Still, I would say there IS developement. Irvine's dropping of the 'I'm a loner' mask, revealing to be someone who resents feeling 'left out' especially by the orphanage people. Selphie, whose cheerful innocence is marred by a thirst for vengeance after the fall of Trabia Garden. Zell, who starts out by almost being to Squall what Cloud was to Sephiroth, seems to gain some self-respect towards the end. Quistis, emotionally dependant and overprotective at the start, learns to take some distance. It's not the 'Great Shocks' of FFVII, but in their own way, they male the characters alive to me. And in my game, I rather have an occasionally whiny, but alive Squall Lionheart, then the Larger then live, but less believable Cloud Strife.

[PhoenixAsh]

Thanks D.

Rand Al'Tor you make good points about character developement. But the trouble is the characters themselves with the exception of Zell and Squall can be summed up so quickly.

Quistis, I'm a loser, I leave quickly though.
Selphie, I'm hyper, even when bad things happen.
Irvine, did ANYONE think through my character?
Rinoa, I like men, if one dies I get a new one.
Seifer, I'm a classic rival, my motives and attitudes reflect this.
Edea, I'm caring but was used for evil.
Ultimecia, most people view me as some random bad guy who's evil for the sake of it.
Laguna, I'm a moron, a lucky one.
Cid, my character fills jobs, and they had to have a Cid somewhere.

[Rand Al'Tor]

Don't really think your descriptions do them justice. I mean, for example

Cloud: Arrogant, feelingless bastard changed to screwed in the head angstboy changed to classic hero
Tifa: Caring childhood friend tomboy
Aeris: Sweet mysterious girl
Barret: Angry resistance fighter
Yuffie: Arrogant, untrustworthy thief
Vincent: Angst
Cait Sith: What the hell...?

This description is NOT what they are, as I think your descriptions are unfair to the VIII characters. I think some of my points in character developement show that there's more to it then the 'one sentence description'

[PhoenixAsh]

I know I dumbed them down a bit for impact, but really what more was there to a lot of them?
Your FFVII ones were only for example, but still they were far more exaggerated than mine.

[Besimudo]

Reductionism simply wont work here!

If one were stupid enough he could proclaim that:

FF7 = Armageddon action style rip off

FF8 = high school romance style rip off.

These type of analysis bite about as deep as a horse!
Everyone has herd them before and we are all quite tired of them.


Firstly, FF8 has a corporate and professionally modern feel right from the start. The corruption of key power figures is vivid throughout the game, presented in a realistic fashion. Dollet was invaded, the garden is in debt and Galbadia has experience political transition.
These factors have historical contributors that work on the macro level (the characters react to the present). FF7 on history is a little less gelatinous...We see the tyranny of capitalism and modern economic turmoil, yet the history is given as a simple explanation...By none other than the main Characters (the game reacts to the characters). This is fatal flaw number one...FF7 has little advancement on early themes latter in the game. In FF8 we discover through the characters investigation why events at the start occurred. In FF7 the narrative style proceeds with the game...This eliminates the tense of information flow. As you all know information unfortunately flows after the event, we are never fully informed when something occurs. The neglected information adds to the professional feel to FF8. As Hitchcock stated "In a plot less is better than More".. And FF7 certainly feeds us more than we require, often repeating points as if the player was too stupid to comprehend it the first time round.

On to the characters... I always questioned the interaction between the FF7 characters... I mean Yuffie and Vincent were tacked on at the last minute. This is evident by their sudden taking of leave in the end sequence. Where were Vincent and Yuffie, did they experience stage fright before the final FMV sequence and decide split before the director noticed?
At least FF8 had full intros and budget allocation for all the leads....I believe that even sub parts receive time on FMV. Unless this pragmatism is misdirected by some collective consent (the FF7 boys club) I stand absolutely correct, on argumentative merits...

As for Cloud Vs Squall... Quite simply I lost all respect for cloud when he had a mental break down! At least Squall was true to the warrior tradition, never considering his actions on moral grounds. To Squall being a warrior was his divine vocation; to Cloud it was a lie.

[Wightraven]

*sighs* I see now. FFVII vs FFVIII all over again. Damn. And I was hoping for some intelligent conversation...

... ah well. As a last note I say that FFVIII was my least favorite FF (besides II and III which I haven't played through yet) for the same reasons FFVII is higher on my list (somewhere around four or five), those reasons being that the characters were crap, the system was atrocious, and the story was undeveloped in VIII (obviously the opposite in VII). Interestingly enough, the few reasons I LIKED VIII were reasons why VII isn't higher on my list; good translation, nice graphics.

VIII and VII both have their good points and bad points, but the MAIN point is that it's a Final Fantasy. A bad Final Fantasy is almost always better than a good other brand RPG.

Personally I suggest you just agree to disagree, as there's obviously not going to be any convincing either of you groups of the other's opinion.

This is the last I'll say on the matter, unless one of my points is brought into direct contention.

Good day.

[Advent Child]

I don't see your point. You believed FFVIII had a story that was too deep to be a final fantasy?

As for being party of the story, even if that game was named "Joey's adventures in Pop-tart land" I'd have still thought it was an FF. Mainly because of the gameplay I guess. Summons, Magic, Fighting, and Abilities. Seems like an FF to me.

And listen to Wightraver no one wants to read
"FFVII IS BETTAIRE!!1//"
"NO YUO AER TEH SUX!11/ FFVIII IS TEH SUPERIOR!!111/"

However, wight, your use of the phrase "agree to disagree" bothers me. People already agree that they disagree when they argue. If they asked each other "do we disagree?" then the answer would be yes from both sides. The entire POINT of the arguement is that both sides disagree upon a fact, and both sides KNOW that they disagree, so if they wanted to make an agreement upon said fact, it would be pretty redundant, and thus no point in making the agreement in the first place, which eliminates the need for the phrase. I hate it when people say that phrase. Anyways, back to the thread with you.

[Wightraven]

Hmm... never thought of it that way, lj. When I say "agree to disagree" it's meant to carry the connotation "and shut the hell up about it", therefore keeping the two parties from arguing over a point that neither is going to concede to.

*smiles cutely, meaning no harm*

[PhoenixAsh]

Besimudo:

On to the characters... I always questioned the interaction between the FF7 characters... I mean Yuffie and Vincent were tacked on at the last minute. This is evident by their sudden taking of leave in the end sequence. Where were Vincent and Yuffie, did they experience stage fright before the final FMV sequence and decide split before the director noticed?

You are kidding right? Vincent and Yuffie were bonus characters. You can hardly praise VIII for not having any.


You're other reason for liking VIII is because it doesn't have as much plot detail? Well that's interesting.

[TheSpoonyBard]

Rather than argue about this why doesn't somebody try to contact Square and ask them about it? I can't see why Final Fantasy VIII needs to justify it's existence, and I don't think it needs justification from anyone else. There is nothing anybody can do to remove it from the Final Fantasy series, so why don't you accept that it is what it is - a part of the Final Fantasy series.

Square have made between 12-15 Final Fantasy games, and I'm sure they are not to everyone's taste. They've had to experiment with their games to see which ones were successful and which were not. If you personally do not like Final Fantasy VIII, then don't play it. If you do enjoy it, then happy gaming.

[Besimudo]

I would just like to clarify with raven, that the sorceress is the descendent of the great Hyne (god).. So the sorcs do have a mythical origin.. as I pointed out... but no you doubted me...and i guess you shouldn’t have....

As for phoenix.... Shining force 2 had bonus characters, they offer little to the plot and cheapen the main characters.

By the way this is the order of your criticism, so I thought Id try the phoenix style...and I guess it has worked. At least FF8 does not have "bonus" characters....What is FF7 a game of Bingo or something?



Note: you could have discussed how Vincent related to Frankenstein’s monster, arther than calling him a "bonus" character... opps but then Raven will claim we are going too far again!

... and the materia system was more fool proof. I still laugh at people who cannot junction correctly and have Zell kill FF8 bosses in one limit break! These inadequates are the sort that has to win the game by summoning GFs. The first time I cleared the game (notes that I have only played FF8 twice) I was able to kill Adel in two limit breaks...the second time I killed Adel with one limit break....

This is a major criticism of FF8 that Junctioning was crap...but in fact it is the people who cannot junction that are foolish.

[PhoenixAsh]

I chose the word "bonus" as I felt you would use "extra" to make them sound cheap and tagged on. I should have said secret.

Not to get to FFVII spoilery, but in no way did Yuffie or Vincent cheapen anything. Vincent added huge amounts towards tieing together the character histories, and delving into the darker side of Shinra. Yuffie added a lot to the world of VII, showing the sort of lifestyle and moral code that would be associated with the slums of Midgar spread right across the globe to the beautiful and tranquil Wutai.


I agree with everything you said about the battle system though.