Name change

[Wightraven]

Besimudo, the way you use your words I can't help but percieve you've taken things a little TOO personally (something I myself am guitly of at times... a lot of times). However, you've failed to answer the question I posed; what does it matter if storylines/styles/characters/etc. parallel or resemble that of authors and other creative folk?

Again, that's not rhetorical. I want a bloody answer.

Secondly...

I still laugh at people who cannot junction correctly and have Zell kill FF8 bosses in one limit break!

How is that a good thing? This is my problem with the system of FFVIII; it's easy to abuse, dropping the challenge of the game to nil. I'm sorry, I'd rather have a game where my party has weaknesses and fighting the bosses is a challenge to one where I am God and all crumble to dust in my path.

Just my opinion of course, and my opinion matters just as much as all of yours.

[Besimudo]

Raven you may or may not be aware of the collective conscience…The fact is that Authors use themes for other works in designing the story, characters and imagery. In the same way the average people automatically assume that certain things make sense in todays world, based on opinions that seem rational (largely Keynes, Darwin and Marx)… writers are also influenced by this same conscience. The only difference is that Sqaure are obviously well read in mythical scripture; these mythical themes are the type that mad people (so called eccentrics by the masses) identify with…and say “hey this scene is analogous to the coming of noahs floods (see FF7s arrival of the weapons) or Vincent is similar to Frankenstein’s monster…. And for FF8 one could say that Squall and Laguna are manifestations of Loki and Fenrir, as they are father and son…and they defy the gods. As Al’ pointed out even the name of the ship “ragnarok” relates to the Norse Armageddon. Or you could in Christian tradition (as I have previously) illustrated Laguna as the anti-Christ….he is charming to women, yet the women who knew Laguna meet a tragic end. The people love him this is reminiscent of Revelations. He leads a secular community and as I pointed out the arrival of the monsters signifies the same downfall as in centra. Laguna even has the devils luck…he is clumsy, yet he always comes out victorious. The Anti-Christ is not some arch demon, it is a beautiful and kind person who is inspirational to the masses.

So what does it matter… A lot. Good literature follows the basic forms that one cannot possibly present consciously. A good writer like an inventor enters a trance like state where it all happens…then Vola, Eureka it all makes sense. If you examine great works they contain multitudes of information that applies over all time. Good works never need updating as they are correct forever.

FF8 appeals to the higher level, much like any great work… the characters and the plot are secondary to absolute ideas. The whole eschatological theme is played out subtly, much like in myths…first there is political unrest…then war.. and then destruction. FF7 did this similarly with a comet, FF8 stuck with tradition and used humans as the vehicle of demise. This was my problem with FF7 and FF10 they paid to much attention to exotericism, and for this the eternal themes were lost. In FF8 most people thought it was a soap opera, much like the young scholar reading the Iliad for the first time… This is because human life revolves around human affairs..which reflect a higher order. Humans react to human events, not natural event as they do in FF7 and 10. Nature was tamed with the “titans”, it is the higher virtues that interest humanity.


“How is that a good thing? This is my problem with the system of FFVIII; it's easy to abuse, dropping the challenge of the game to nil. I'm sorry, I'd rather have a game where my party has weaknesses and fighting the bosses is a challenge to one where I am God and all crumble to dust in my path.”

This was a brilliant thing, as one could finally concentrate on the story, rather than being interrupted by the game. FF8 shed the game feel, and not surprisingly many “gamers” were displeased. Besides, FF games are still pretty easy, despite the system they use… Are you denying this factor? If anything FF8 was the most difficult…I mean look at how many inadequates complain on the internet.

[TheAbominatrix]

*rolls her eyes at the entire conversation* It's a friggin game, not some deep, transcendant story meant to last for all time. It's just another way to say 'people dont like what I dont like because they arent educated enough to understand it'. *stays out of this thread from now on. Lord.*

[PhoenixAsh]

I'm almost tempted to agree with Besimudo to some degree. However my criticism has always been with VIII on a normal level, which I think should be important and considered before any deeper levels.

The battle system wasn't designed to take away gameplay I thought, it added it. In other FFs you really do walk around not really taking part, you're just the one constantly pressing attack when the game tells you you can.
In VIII you could actually think and use experience to play the game skillfully instead of just using patience. First time through it was a challenge (ish), but what's the fun of playing something if you can't actually improve?

[Wightraven]

What Abominatrix said. Damn, I really wanted to be the first to say it, too.

Ah well. As I have no new points I shall now make my exit as well. I'm sure you'll chalk this up as a victory for you, Besimudo, as you've "bettered an intellectual infereior", so go have another beer in celebration.

[Rand Al'Tor]

Hmm... disagree there Besimudo.

Squaresoft is, first and foremost. A company. A company that wants to make MONEY. It will be secondary to coolness, immersiveness and even prettiness.

You make it sound like they had an epiphamy. That they had something they wanted to say. More likely is that they were just brainstorming about the game and someone said. "Hey, I've been reading this bible some western buddy gave me, and there's some stuff in it we could use." Trances need not be involved. Plenty of cultural influence happens on the most base of levels. Culture starts not with Mozart but with children's rhymes.

People LIKE IT when they see something they recognise in something else. THAT is the main reason why SS would put some Biblical and Norse mythology on it. Not a big meaning, just cause they know we like it. And yeah, I like to make assumptions that the world of FFVIII has some 'uncovered stuff' left (I AM one of the defenders of a sequel NOT concentrating on Laguna) But what I do IS speculation. There's always possibility B.

Square employe A: Euh...cool name for a spaceship... hey, anyone got a cool name for a spaceship?
Square Employe B: *(reading some norse mythology, or even just playing Ragnarok online or something) hmm... Ragnarok?
Square Employee A: Oh yeah, sounds cool.

It is human nature to try to find patterns in everything. And we're pretty good at it. Sometimes we even think we find them where they are not though. But really... it's great fun speculating on connections like this, and if we're wrong. No harm, no foul. It's just a game. I am pretty sure Final Fantasy VIII will not change a lot of people's lives in very great manners. So, what's wrong with some nice speculation fun?

On another note, I can't find myself going with the Laguna = Anti-Christ thing. Since we're going with a 'Genesis' feel I'm more inclined to look for fun Adam parallels. Although they are FAR from perfect.

Adam: Lilith and Eve
Laguna: Julia and Raine

Lilith: basically went with the devil afterwards
Julia: Did not go with the devil, but her daughter did go with God by becoming a Sorceress. Who is the Bad Guy really.

Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain and Abel. Who apparently had a rivalry.
Laguna and Raine.... ah ....: Well I DID say it was IMPERFECT. Anyway, Cain and Abel can be constructed as Seifer and Squall.

Cain gets thrown out of mankind, and ends up with Lilith, so I've heard.
Seifer gets thrown out of Garden (Yes, yes IMPERFECT, I know. LAGUNA is supposed to be chased out of Garden but Square wanted Final Fantasy VIII, not Genesis ReMixed) and ends up fighting for the Sorceress.

...

Ahw come on people. Speculation is FUN, as long as you don't take it too seriously, and see FFVIII mainly as a FUN past of time. But to LEARN mythology, go read a book about it (please do) and to learn about life.... well... turn off the computer and go... but speculate a bit first. I'd say that with some mythological background you can add some more enjoyment of FFVIII, but Square isn't NEARLY nuts enough to spend their time and $$$ on a game that only very few people can appreciate. The mythology is the cherry on the cake. (which IS a good cake with good deep characters and nice music and.... damn I screwed up my analogy.... well, it's good characters no matter what anyone says *sticks out tongue at Phoenix Ash*)

Also (man, I shouldn't stay out of these discussions so long) The thing I LIKE about Cloud is his forsaking of all claims to warriorhood. I'm no pacifist, but I think there's something very wrong with taking pride in your ability to cause suffering and death. Take pride in the causes you fight for, never in the fighting itself.When you fight, you do it because you were unable to find a peaceful way to reach that cause. But Final Fantasy never WAS about ethics though. Neither Squall nor Cloud were motivated primarly by moral reasons. In a poetical way, I guess both had to face their fears. Cloud had to face the fear he had from the Past (his life is basically a big failure) while Squall fears the future (losing people he gets close to) By fighting Sephiroth, Cloud fights the misguided ideals of his youth and the famous general who was so much better then HIM, the failed SOLDIER, and by fighting Ultimecia, Squall fights the one that would deny his future, and more importantly, afterwards, he deals with the fact that he KNOWS he will lose Rinoa. (R=U theory) And they both are stronger, HAPPY endings all around!

[Besimudo]

'Ah well. As I have no new points I shall now make my exit as well. I'm sure you'll chalk this up as a victory for you, Besimudo, as you've "bettered an intellectual infereior [sic] ", so go have another beer in celebration.'

Raven, your wit is sharp but unfortunately calibrated to hit non-existent targets...as Bruce week ended over a week ago, and it seems my dipsomania has receded...for now.
If you intend to remain silent on the points made regarding the game and the approach I have taken to analyse it, then I will assume that you agree with me absolutely.

'Hmm... disagree there Besimudo.'

It is about time!

'Squaresoft is, first and foremost. A company. A company that wants to make MONEY. It will be secondary to coolness, immersiveness and even prettiness.'

Shakespeare wrote for the king; overtly he supported the kings ideal, yet covertly he undermined the establishment. For example, Shakespeare recreated the murderous Macbeth in vivid detail...something the king of England would have elated. When the reader transcends the tragedy he learns the psychological condition of the tyrant and feels sympathy. Although, this theme would have evaded James I egocentric head, while only the more neutral minded people can see the truth.
What does this demonstrate? Well SS and Shakespeare required sustenance, whether it be making million dollar profits or impressing the king! This does not dwindle the fact that deeper themes exist within the works themselves.

'You make it sound like they had an epiphamy. That they had something they wanted to say. More likely is that they were just brainstorming about the game and someone said. "Hey, I've been reading this bible some western buddy gave me, and there's some stuff in it we could use.'

Interesting, are you a psychic? How do you know the exact mental processes the creators utilised?
The developmental team for FF8 is the same crew as Vagrant story and Chrono Cross...These three are undeniably Squares greatest works, and only after playing these games did I learn of the common denominator! Notice that after the team left we saw the likes of Kuja and Seymour (sephiroth clones)pop into FF9 and 10...odd is it not?

'Trances need not be involved. Plenty of cultural influence happens on the most base of levels. Culture starts not with Mozart but with children's rhymes.'

Actually, in childhood we are most creative...we only begin to intellectualise in adulthood. It is when we reflect on our childhood that we become beacons of creativity. Adults need to loose the condition of pride and often a transcendent state achieves this. The Buddha reached enlightenment, upon reflection on his childhood. My main point was that inventions and great works are inspired on a different level...This is why we see a multitude of symbolism, something the conscious mind cannot achieve so thoroughly.

'People LIKE IT when they see something they recognise in something else. THAT is the main reason why SS would put some Biblical and Norse mythology on it. Not a big meaning, just cause they know we like it. And yeah, I like to make assumptions that the world of FFVIII has some 'uncovered stuff' left (I AM one of the defenders of a sequel NOT concentrating on Laguna) But what I do IS speculation. There's always possibility B.'

Yeah, well as we have witnessed FF8 is the least popular FF game in the series. One reason being is the accessibility of the plot. Many complain that FF8 was pointless, these are the same category that describe Homers Iliad as boring... but then brag about their multiple readings of “Harry Potter”. Most people need a Big Mac with fries...and this is what most big budget RPGs cater for. We got lucky with FF8. Anyhow people like “Die Hard” type plots where the good and evil representatives are clearly defined. Mentioning the bible conjures a reaction of discontent in most people today, due to our secular inclination.

'Square employe A: Euh...cool name for a spaceship... hey, anyone got a cool name for a spaceship?
Square Employe B: *(reading some norse mythology, or even just playing Ragnarok online or something) hmm... Ragnarok?
Square Employee A: Oh yeah, sounds cool.
It is human nature to try to find patterns in everything. And we're pretty good at it. Sometimes we even think we find them where they are not though. But really... it's great fun speculating on connections like this, and if we're wrong. No harm, no foul. It's just a game. I am pretty sure Final Fantasy VIII will not change a lot of people's lives in very great manners. So, what's wrong with some nice speculation fun?'

Once again you have demonstrated your psychic ability, and it seems that my faith in it is declining... As I pointed out the 'lone wolf' Squall and the Ragnarok are a little too related not to represent the son of Loki, Fenris.

'On another note, I can't find myself going with the Laguna = Anti-Christ thing. Since we're going with a 'Genesis' feel I'm more inclined to look for fun Adam parallels. Although they are FAR from perfect.'

We see Laguna at a point in time when the religious traditions are breaking down on the planet. Laguna impressed the masses immensely and then went on a crusade against the ordained leaders (Hynes descendents). In return the great Hyne send the Armageddon as he previously did centra 80 years ago.
This cyclical theme in FF8 is another of those subconscious marvels in the game...Obviously the messenger (Rinoa) releases the monsters as a sign of Hynes scorn for humanity.
But as we know the natural order always prevails in some form of another...And this seems to occur as the humans find some way of maintaining their separation from the absolute. (time compression is analogous to the absolute, as time is an illusion found in the natural (sinful) world). If humanity embraced Hyne they would exist in harmony with the universe forever, but at the same time they would be excluded from free will!

The Adam interpretation is appreciated... just remember that the basic form is correct, even though the exoteric detail differ.. but one can expect this.

Just as I analysed Laguna, Kiros and Ward as a variation on the three brothers of Shu from Guangzhou’s Three Kingdoms....One could say that the exact specifics aren’t all there, but the basic truth is still eternal. One could also argue that SS gave Laguna 2 companions, due to FF8's 3 party battle system...but this is just reductionism.

Al' your tone in this particular post reflected my sarcasm, as Big D may recall it.... Big D was discussing the relevance of the crater south of Trabia (near the “Laguna fights the red dragon” movie scene) I retorted by saying that the crater was just a programming prop to prevent players from advancing into the scene before disc 3. Obviously, this is true, the designer placed the crater there to stop the player from accessing the location prematurely. However, discussing the plot references to the crater is more interesting than dismissing it purely as a programming tool. I was quite aware of third factor, but I just wanted to point out how frivolous material explanations can be! And it worked.

Finally, as for Cloud and Squall cutting down people... This is no different to the farmer tilling the fields, the merchant selling sake, or infact the Lawyer delivering his case. For the warrior life is bloodshed, killing and fighting...Without consideration of good and evil. Provided that the warrior follows his path perfectly, no matter what the cost, all other things are but blossom in the wind.


P.S. Just to keep in line with the name change..

I would prefer a "heartless" warrior than a self deluding nerd (as I pointed out less vividly than Al') As focused on the fact that Cloud was not so great...In actual fact he is less "cool" than Squall.

I think most people can relate to the little blond hero (Oh another similarity) in FF7 and FF9 and FF10 Gee what a coincidence! The common person can quickly differentiate the good Cloud, Zidane, Tidus from the pompous articulating Sephiroth, Kuja and Seymour.

What is it with SS and little blondies Vs tall baddies with long hair?

FF8 broke with this theme and presented the holy knight (Seifer) with the "Aryan" good guy look and made the player the underdog!